1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga The sudden change from Republic to Empire.

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Brer79, May 6, 2022.

  1. Brer79

    Brer79 Jedi Knight star 1

    Jan 3, 2017
    First off.
    Episode III is my favorite of the saga.
    My only gripe with the movie is the night and day transition from The Old Republic to the Empire.
    At the start of Episode III.
    We can see much has changed from Episode II in terms of visuals and and tone, but there was also a familiar theme too.
    You had new Jedi Fighters, but you also had familiar things as well.
    Like the Low Altitude Assault Transport.
    Enter the declaration of the Empire.
    Now all of a sudden V-Wings are everywhere with no Assault Transports to be seen.
    We also get a first look into the Republic Cruisers, and find recruited Military personnel, instead of high ranking Clones.
    That's another thing.
    I haven't seen any on-screen material where Clones are integrated with recruited Stormtroopers.
    You have Clones in Episode III going right into Stormtroopers in everything that followed.
    It's basically a light switch change.
    I understand the thinking behind it to connect Episode III to Episode IV, but they could have slowly introduced things such as non-clone Officers and V-Wings into the start of Episode III.
    Also, hopefully blended integration of Clones and recruits into future stuff.
    Just a small complaint.

    Yes, the extended material like CW and TBB connect things together,
    but for those....that are not us :).
    That only watch the movies.
    The blending is a little sudden.
    Last edited: May 6, 2022
    Dandelo likes this.
  2. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 13, 2004
    I hear you. I love Revenge of the Sith as well. Yet, I feel like Anakin's transformation into Vader is all too swift as well.
    Dandelo likes this.
  3. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Aug 9, 2002
    Can't agree with this. The big dramatic transitions in ROTS feel entirely organic and earned to me.
  4. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 9, 2017
    We don’t need to see any middle points in the evolution because the republic ships and clones already look like imperial ships and troopers. We’ve got a twenty year gap between the films for the minor design changes to take place.

    Anakin and the republic are like water at the point of boiling. The qualitative change is sudden but it’s the result of slow quantitative changes.
  5. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 28, 2015
    I don’t really agree. I don’t even really see how TCW transitioned it better when the show ends at Order 66. Plus we saw V-Wings and non-clone officers in the film with the paint jobs removed from the Venators. Bad Batch sure, but the OT never really showed what life was like under the Empire in the systems it actually controlled.

    I think seeing a younger Empire and how, for many, it was no different from the Republic in its foundation was an ingenious move on Lucas’s end. It’s not some bombastic coup, or a select few of terrible people enacting a crackdown, it’s a welcomed reorganization of the Republic’s resources to strengthen (what we saw of the Republic’s flaws in TPM and AOTC) into something more nationalistic and authoritative for those who saw the Republic’s current system as weak and ineffective. To me, it’s completely organic in the timeframe in the movies and makes the Republic’s fall and the parallel of Anakin’s descent far more interesting.
  6. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 1, 2012
    I think all of the movies, and in particular ROTS there is some degree of time distortion (made necessary by the length of the movie) that can make the transition seem rushed. But to me it does not seem to be inorganic. What essentially happened was an intergalactic coup. ROTS only focused on a few important events and planets. I suspect the transition to Empire in non-core worlds took a significant amount of time.
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    I thought it worked pretty well, especially given Lucas’ quote about how democracies become dictatorships, by people willingly giving power to the dictator. It was a coup, and once Palpatine had all the pieces in place that he needed, it was meant to be sudden.
  8. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Oct 1, 2012
    In Lucas' universe--at least when he was making the PT films--the stormtroopers are clones, and there's no "change."
    oierem likes this.
  9. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 9, 2017
    The voices of the troopers change. So at least they had different and varied hosts for their clone soldiers. I think conscription makes sense in all of the canons. As well as new clones made from different genetic templates
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
    Darth Caliban and Iron_lord like this.
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Sep 2, 2012
    I think they vary noticeably in height in the OT.

    The newcanon approach seems to be "Some Kamino Clonetroopers were still in service in the OT era, but very few, with the vast majority of survivors having been retired by this point".
  11. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Apr 27, 2014
    The issue could have been avoided if TPM was AOTC, and we had one movie between AOTC and ROTS, like “Labyrinth of Evil.”
  12. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Oct 1, 2012
    Yeah, I'm aware of the differences as evident to the viewer, and I'm aware of "canon." But that's not what I meant. I meant that at least when he was making the PT movies, to GL, the OT stormtroopers were clones--he says as much during the AOTC commentary.
    Watcherwithin and oierem like this.
  13. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 28, 2015
    Nah. Seeing the Galactic Republic before its militarization is a really fascinating concept. I think getting a sense of the pre-war Republic highlights some of its flaws (like allowing corporations to have private militias but very little to combat them when they get power hungry) and even though AOTC is technically MOSTLY pre-war, the state of urgency during the Separatist Crisis does not make it feel like “peacetime” era. I think the contrast to TPM to the ending of ROTS is what makes the fall of the Republic so fascinating especially since there’s very little in TPM that is obvious about its Imperial foreshadowing
  14. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 13, 2014
    The last big pieces of the switch from Republic to Empire happen swiftly. But the build up to those final sweeping changes occurs over the entirety of prequels.

    For sure it is in motion once Palpatine is elected Chancellor. Then we hear in Attack of the Clones that Palpatine has remained in office beyond the duration of regular term limits.

    He’s already openly not going to give up power, but the galaxy can rationalize that away as being due to other circumstances.

    By the time Order 66 is given The Republic was already transformed.

    It’s the same with Anakin being pushed to the Dark Side.
  15. PeterFleckenstein

    PeterFleckenstein Jedi Youngling

    May 17, 2022
  16. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 27, 2013
    I have my issues with the prequels, but I don't think the transition to the Galactic Empire is too rushed.
    The Galactic Republic was transforming fast into the Galactic Empire over the Clone Wars (and leading up to that war). The Clone Troopers don't instantly get new armor at the Revenge of the Sith or get recruits in their ranks. That transition takes weeks if not months.
    Palpatine has insane resources and has eliminated almost all of his opposition. It's not too far-fetched for Venators to get a new paint job and new uniforms and terminology. He probably had a lot of it in reserve waiting to go.
    Sith Lord 2015 and Shaak Ti like this.
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 and a year later, re-branded himself Führer. There is historical precedence for a quick turn around. The same happens here. But overall, the government is largely finalized by the end of ROTS, with everything changing over time to match up to the visuals in ANH.
  18. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Jul 29, 2016
    I know that the Wii version is different from others, but I remember in The Force Unleashed, on Kashyyk Vader was accompanied by Clone Troopers. I had Dark Lord: The Rise of Dark Vader downloaded on my old computer, but I'll have to find it again and read it to remember James Luceno's description of the Imperial aesthetics.
    Using a Disney canon example, I also own Catalyst, but I also forget how the Imperial designs were described during the period after the Separatist army was shut down before the Ersos' exile.

    In ROTS specifically, I'm not sure the time gap to the scene with Vader and the Emperor aboard the Star Destroyer, but I think that Lucas chose to portray the TIE Fighters and OT era Star Destroyers for symbolic purposes, although realistically the new designs would take longer.
    I think officer uniforms during the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War were pretty similar, (See Yularen and Tarkin), and we see Imperial officers, but not stormtroopers during the ROTS final montage.

    The Senate exists until 0 BBY of course, so the transition to total autocratic control was gradual.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
    Iron_lord likes this.
  19. Jordan1Kenobi

    Jordan1Kenobi Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    The Bad Batch has been expanding on this change brilliantly.
    Slater likes this.
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Sep 2, 2012
    As I recall, ROTS's final Vader scene used V-Wings and Venators, rather than TIEs and Imperial-class ships.

    ConservativeJedi321 likes this.
  21. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 15, 2004
    The subtle thing we see in AotC is that Palpatine already has the Royal Guards.

    We already have pointy ships and white armoured soldiers.

    The end of the Clone Wars has Star Destroyers, V-wings, Jedi Interceptors, Arc-170s and updated white armoured soldiers.

    It's already the Empire, which is the best part.

    A swift paint-job later and the Empire turns up.
    wobbits, Slater, Darkslayer and 3 others like this.
  22. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Jul 29, 2016
    Argh- should have realized that!
    Iron_lord likes this.
  23. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 19, 2016
    The image was certainly designed to closely resemble the later Empire, with the most obvious visual change being the removal of the red stripe from the Star Destroyer.
    Such a simple change does wonders to make the transition feel more organic. It is the same ship the Republic used, but simply rebranded to appear more Empire.
    Then there is the V-Wing that is just a pointy version of the Tie Fighter. It just makes sense.
  24. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Mar 26, 2013
    @Alexrd Is this accurate?
  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    No. The stormtroopers started as clones, but were eventually phased out.
    wobbits and Darkslayer like this.