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Senate The Weekly Discussion of Military Technology

Discussion in 'Community' started by Mr44, Nov 27, 2003.

  1. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 2, 2014
    No, the reason the F-35 came about over the F-22 is the F-35's cost was suppose to be lower and offered more versatility over a pretty specific role like the F-22 has being air superiority.

    However it's a bit more complex than that, and we can still and could do before SEAD missions with the aircraft in the inventory that can equip an anti-radiation missile. There's also the JSOW as an option too, but anti-radiation missiles have been used in the SEAD role since Vietnam. The reason the F-35 has stealth is for a higher chance of survival in contested airspace. Threats can range from SAM's like the S-300 to enemy aircraft. To really understand why stealth is important, you need to understand how electronic warfare plays into jamming and how radar works. Stealth coupled with the systems the F-35 has on board for EW should allow it to operate deeper in contested space, and return with a higher chance of survival.
    Well, if the F-22's at the start of bombing ISIL/ISIS/IS/whatever their name is this week is any indication, stealth is pretty advantageous in going in and leaving pretty much unnoticed until something goes boom. Though it also helps when you have Though you bring up a great point about SEAD missing a site, or not knowing about a site missed in reconnaissance until the radar fires up and begins scanning.
     
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  2. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    Well yeah, there's no way you can whack every single SAM site. But over Iraq and the Balkans, SEAD pretty much did its job in forcing all those air defenses to go and hide instead of shooting at our planes. I guess stealth does give you that extra measure of security, but is it worth the exorbitant cost?
     
  3. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    It's worth it when it's your butt sitting in the plane. Trust me, I'd have been much happier over Iraq if the C-130 was stealthy.
     
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  4. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Hand of the Mod Squad and Enforcer of the Realm star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012

    Scott McGrady was shot down by a SA-6 over the Balkans. A F-117 was shot down by an SA-3. Both those systems are far inferior to the current S-300/400 systems coming on line.
     
  5. Sarchet

    Sarchet Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 23, 2016
    Objectively, not in the types of wars we are currently fighting. A-10s and similar are more cost effective in a low threat environment. But the F-22 and F-35 are intended to operate in high threat environments - like a war with China or Russia, facing down the most modern radars, missiles and fighters those nations have to offer. Then? Yeah, it's worth it.
     
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  6. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Hand of the Mod Squad and Enforcer of the Realm star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    TTPs can mitigate risk of an IADs but never completely eliminate it. I dont think A-10s are very survivable in a S-300/400 environment, or if they are their mission effectiveness is limited.
     
  7. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    I seem to recall reading something to the extent that this was the result of the USAF flying missions on predictable routes and times, so all the Serbs had to do was set up their missiles there and wait for the right moment. If so, then isn't this more a question of tactics rather than hardware?
     
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  8. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Hand of the Mod Squad and Enforcer of the Realm star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    The actual cause of the shoot down is classified, but there is a ton of public information from which people may be able to put 2 and 2 together.

    Shoot downs usually occur from a combination of causes that start with intelligence gathering and mission brief and goes all the way to a lack of pilot SA at the time of the shoot down.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    Also with regard to this...yeah, every soldier would rather minimize the risks they have to take, but if we equipped everyone with the latest and greatest, our military wouldn't be able to function. Would we have been able to win World War II if all our sailors had demanded to be stationed on Iowa-class battleships?
     
  10. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
  11. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Hand of the Mod Squad and Enforcer of the Realm star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012

    We have also done stupid things that increase risks to our aircrews as well.
     
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  12. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    So I guess this means anybody can be a sniper now? It's just a matter of time before this technology proliferates out into the wider world. And, along with the proliferation of drones, I would think this would give insurgents, guerrillas and other asymmetrical actors a significant leg up.
     
  13. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    OOPS

    The USS Lake Champlain got hit by a fishing boat off the Korean peninsula. I served on this ship in the early 90s.
     
  14. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Well, somebody's naval career just ended.
     
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  15. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
  16. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    But does the cyber run on steam or on digital? This is an important consideration.
     
  17. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Catapults, shmatapults. When they flew a C-130 off a carrier, it didn't need no stinkin' catapult. :p
     
  18. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
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  19. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Bitterest Ex-Mod star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
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  20. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    Well hopefully that F-35B works out for the Royal Navy, because if it doesn't...well, it doesn't look like America will be riding to the rescue anymore.
     
  21. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Bitterest Ex-Mod star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    Planning on sitting any major wars out for 2 years, profiteering until you have no choice but to get involved then rewriting the narrative to be you vs evil?
     
  22. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    You mean like what we're (as in the entire Western world, not just America) doing with regard to Syria? That's just kinda how things work in a democracy...you kick the can down the road until the problem is too big to ignore.

    Anyway as a counterpoint, America would not have dawdled for two years while the Soviets overran West Germany and France. That was a lesson learned from WWII...though we might be on our way to un-learning it.
     
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  23. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Rule the waves? Eh... Granted, the Pax Britannica time period had the ships of the line, as well as the rule of the sea. But that reached its zenith back in the mid 1800's or so? The East India Company, in all of its bloated might, ruined that for Britain.

    By the early 1900's, an over-reliance on status and patronage doomed the British Royal Navy for generations. A perfect example is the ill-fated Gallipoli campaign of WWI, which can't be blamed entirely on the navy (it was more like 51%- 49% shared stupidity with the army and navy) But even up to WWII, the British Navy miscalculated an over-reliance on prior generational battlecruisers in an attempt to hold onto past glory. When the HMS Hood was instantly destroyed in 1941, I think it took the Royal Navy until now to recover from the morale loss, and I'm not sure it has completely recovered.

    The Falkland Islands conflict wasn't a shining moment for the Royal Navy either, where it lost 7 ships, including 2 destroyers. There's an excellent book on the sinking of the HMS Sheffield during the Falklands conflict written by one the Sheffield's former captains (and who commanded the navy task force) John Woodward. At least Adm. Woodward was able to order the sinking of the sole Argentine warship during that conflict which got him knighted.

    There is a US Navy destroyer that was commissioned in 2001 named the Winston S Churchill. The Winston Churchill probably has 2 decades +/- of service left with Strike Group 12.
     
  24. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Bitterest Ex-Mod star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    OK, but that doesn't change the position of the RN as the greatest navy in history.
     
  25. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    Britain didn't sell its soul to a bunch of fascists, so I'll have to agree with Ender.