Lit The woman that broke the galaxy... and Palpatine!

I was reading this blog post gathering known info about Underworld, and they have an interesting theory that the episodes dealing with the gangster woman from Palpatine’s past are the same ones that would feature Vader dealing with an uprising in Coruscant. They posit that she or her criminal group may even be responsible in some way for the uprising, hence Vader’s participation. That’s not too far fetched since presumably she’d have some kind of role in the story’s present. It doesn’t sound like the plan was to feature any kinds of flashbacks.

That post also links to an interview with Luceno where he talks about getting the name “Sheev” from the story group, who got it from the Underworld scripts. One interesting notion is that Luceno described the in-universe secrecy around the name as meaning that Palpatine had rejected it at some point in his past in favor of his last name only. He imagined there might be a story to it, which, if this related to Palpatine’s backstory, would probably be this same set of episodes.

One final bit from that blog post, they mention how there’s multiple influences of Underworld on the Tarkin novel. One of those includes info about the crime families who would’ve been involved in the series, and among them are the mysterious Crymorah, about whom we know little. So perhaps she would’ve been the head of that or another family.

Anyway, it’s curious to think about what kind of character this would’ve been independent of how she relates to Palpatine’s backstory. And if this was a story told from the present, and only from her perspective, it’s entirely possible that the notion of her “breaking” Palpatine was purely what things looked like from her point of view, not necessarily knowing that he’d been a Sith Lord all along.

 

Well that gets into discussions about calvinism and divine sovereignty and so on. The Antichrist/Beast of revelation may be predestined to be evil-but he also does evil things.

He wages war against the saints, persecutes' God's people, openly blasphemes, demands worship and has anyone who refuses killed,works with Satan and the false prophet to deceive the nations, thereby damning billions. Does that not seem evil to you?

I'd say predestination aside-the Beast of the Sea is an irredeemably evil guy.

 

Well, well, well...

IF he does it predestined thx to Gods creation that makes God complicit kinda like setting someone up for murder. So who is to blame, the one ordering it/creating it or the one who does the deed but has no choice (which could be a defense argument were this a court). From this point of view, God is evil, and the one he deflects attention to regarding the "unwanted" actions is merely an Angel and his servant.

Like in old christianity God was angry and quite punishing, before he got altered into the good benevolent loving one that left the punishing and judging to his loyal servant.

To truly make the servant the evil and not god in this scenario, you'd either have to give him agency and free will, not predestined duty. But whereas mankind got agency, angels envied them for it and did not have that according to some sources!

But it is more complicated than that. Angels are not said but shown to have some agency, but not the same level of freedom humanity enjoys. Is that enough for them to defy god or any predestined plan he had for them?

This more and more looks like god is a masochist that explores his humanity by experiencing everything including pain and worse himself via his creation he is a part of/in. Some may only see the sadist but if he is all and in all, well.

What if the Beast/fallen Angel was predestined for something but took agency that was not allowed to him but not impossible to take for him? Kinda like humanity had free will, but was denied the fruits of the tree of knowledge, but took it anyway. Would that change things?

And why then would someone be created in a way he can defy orders? Like they were made for more but were impatient to use all their potential now and not when god deemed them ready to.

PS: "Irredeemably" does not exist in the christian context. Redemption may not happen during life, but afterlife, or after one or several rebirths if you believe in it, it always happens at some point. One should not make evil, redemption, anything eternal. There is only one thing eternal, the source, God, the Force. Only because most do not look beyond one lifetime, they seem to speak of eternal and irredeemable.

 

Before the PT, i had the strong impression that he taught himself or even under a regular Jedi Master. Something everyone who wanted could do and what many people around him may have known.

 

So basically Thanos and Gamora

 

He is what god made him. He plays the role he has to in the great plan. He is essentially an actor playing a role, rather than a person with actual agency.

 

I’d rather have Palpatine be evil incarnate and not have any sympathetic side

 

In my headcanon that gangster girl is Talzin or a Nightsister it would be interesting if they told this compassionate Palpatine origin story in the Acolyte also in my mind this is the origin story of Disney Canon Palpatine it would be a different version of Palpatine backstory from Legends

 

The Acolyte will be set around 200 years before TPM, so it would be too early to tell Palpatine's story. Also, the show's specific story was pitched to Lucasfilm by its showrunner, Leslye Headland, rather than being based on material they already had left over from Underworld. But of course that doesn't mean that the world-building of Underworld can't find its place in the series.

As you mentioned, there could be a Nightsister connection that could eventually play into the conflict between Talzin and Sidious. Or the series could also introduce us to a different version of Sith history than what we were familiar with. A recent interview with Headland made me wonder if they're going to change it so that the last millennium of Sith history is not actually an uninterrupted chain of masters and apprentices, as most of us have thought since the prequels came out. Instead, the Sith could have really died out a thousand years before the movies, being reborn only a couple of centuries before the movies, coinciding with when the dark side began to cloud the Force for the Jedi.

The character of Tor Valum in the early Trevorrow scripts for Episode IX also suggests that Darth Plagueis was the first Sith Lord to be active in a long time. So maybe that was based on ideas from Underworld that they were recycling? It would certainly help explain how the story we got from the Darth Plagueis novel was very different from what Lucas had been planning.

 

Given the Rule of Two Sith before Plagueis actually were rather mundane and uneventfull, breaking the lineage seems to be no big deal. It's not like each attempted to be the end all like Palpatine, or was content to slowly turn the Republic towards a later Sith's success if their immortality attempt should fail. Plagueis seems to be the first to truly care for the Sith roots and bring all that back in full, and then slap his science on to it of course. Before him, Sith were business men, money folks, rather Illuminati like elites that used the secret club of the Sith and some rituals and powers for gain rather than dominance.

 

How was it different?

 

A new thought on Shmi Skywalker's pre-Anakin life and how it may relate to the Sith and specifically Palpatine:

You know I theorized in other topics that she may have been involved in experiments, been a love or fling of Palpatine even, or else and not just had him as a reaction of the Force to the Sith, but actually because of them somehow. That she may be tied to whoever Plagueis saved from death when he could not save himself.

So far in all this she was a slave since childhood. But what if she was not? Could Shmi have had times in between being a slave and a slave again where she was free or escaped and had a life?

I am asking because I see a lot of paralells between her and Qi'ra who from a young age on ended up as good as enslaved, handed around, abused and rose in a criminal organisation to the position of Boss Lady with a revenge agenda.

What if Shmi had a similiar path before ending up back enslaved, fallen from grace, without allies and having a child being contempt and regretting past sins to become the good mother and rolemodel she is?

Shmi breaking bad once upon a time? Might she be the mystery woman we seek in Palpatines past that way? And if so, given she died in AOTC, who may try to avenge her and know about it post ROTS in Underworld, when not even Anakin/Vader knew about it?

If the woman in question and the person in Underworld becoming a threat to the Empire are not the same but linked, then we are looking for two individuals. Did Shmi have another child but could only keep one? A twin sister to Anakin that grew up in crime and became a boss like Qi'ra? Someone who is unrelated but was like a daughter to her?

Might Marvel's Qi'ra arc, Darth Maul Legacy and Shadows of the Empire vibes aside, have some inspiration from Underworld as well, as Solo movie clearly had some? PS: How would Maul have tied into Underowlrd or that arc? All the Ladies Palpatine crossed coming back at him jointly? Ouch... be that Talzins legacy via Dathomir and Maul, or Shmi's via someone else now tied to Maul like Qi'ra? Sounds like the Crimson Dawn Lady coalition from the comics to me.

 

I would love to see a different Palpatine origin story with him being good at the beginning i've always wondered why most people in the Galaxy and other Senators trust Palpatine maybe him being a good man that they see was true at some point

 

Palpatine was a clean politician, no scandals, no gaffes, no damning ties to some amoral corporation or illegal enterprise. The man was both cultured, polite, and fit in well with Coruscanti high society, he also never supported or opposed anything that could be used to hinder his ambitions later.

Its not about being "good" but the man did have good PR discipline, excellent in fact. He didn't go out of his way from what I could tell to make any sort of name for himself, or build some sort of inherently divisive brand, he was quiet and unassuming, every word and gesture carefully measured.

That just reveals Palpatine is a wolf in sheep's clothing, or again-fits the idea of antichrist like figure, not that he was morally good.

 

This all brings Dooku to mind. He’s described as having been a “political idealist” and was a Jedi for most of his life, but the Republic was so corrupt and full of crime that he lost his faith in democracy and became Darth Tyranus. Perhaps Dooku believes that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan would also join the Sith if they knew how hopeless the Republic was, hence his dialogue when Obi-Wan is in captivity on Geonosis.

 

I could never see either Obi Wan or Qui Gon joining the order of the sith lords honestly. Qui Gon is too devoted to the Living Force, and Obi Wan is a Jedi to the core.

 

I was just saying that Dooku might have been deluded enough to think they would. I wasn’t saying that Dooku might have been right to think that.

 

Dooku may have hoped Obi Wan would yeah. Obi Wan would never have joined the Sith order though.

 

All we discuss are old men, while this topic is about a certain unknown lady... welcome to the patriarchy.

 

Well the thread title is rather problematic itself. “It’s this one WOMAN who ruined everything, Palpatine wasn’t responsible for himself because he once had a bad girlfriend”

 

The ages don’t quite line up, but I’m wondering if the character played by Fiona Shaw in the upcoming Andor TV show may have some connection to the gangster character in Palpatine’s past.



The main thing that made me wonder was her line from the trailer: “People are standing up. That's what a reckoning sounds like.”

Some fans theorized her episode in Underworld could’ve been the same one featuring an uprising in Coruscant that Vader is sent to stop. So this character’s lines reminded me of that that, though here they seem more related to the rebellion. Shaw also had some interesting comments about her character, though her idea of when this is set (thousands of years before the movies) is likely mistaken.

To clarify, by “some connection” I mean strictly in terms of story ideas from the old project being recycled and reused in a different form in canon.

 

Fiona Shaw definitely needs her own Andor Prequel, with a recast younger version delivering the same punch she does perhaps. Few episodes in she still is mysterious enough regarding her past that it is possible to do a lot with her, with or without Palpatine that is.

And for all those that think it is problematic to have a woman responsible for Palpatine's dark turn... that is entirely not what is meant by this topic or by Lucas idea. Rather even the Monster Palpatine once had a girl most likely and somehow probably alienated her, even blamed her from his point of view, which must not be the truth but just his distorted vision of it. Sure the people one meets change oneself somehow always, but that does not mean they are responsible for ones own actions. Nor are they entirely innocent maybe, but that depends on what went on back then and it does not have to be apologetic, nor blame any character or both. In the end, every character has some good and some dark in them.

 

It was wishful thinking that Underworld would so influence Andor to that level. Though the most recent episode has scenes that felt straight out of that short test reel that was released a few years ago. So I can definitely imagine this kind of story as having fit within the kind of world of stories that was being created for Underworld.

Going back to this character, though, I wonder two things:

(1) Who were the writers who came up with this script?

(2) Why did Lucas want to give this kind of backstory to Palpatine?​

My first question is mainly because it does feel like a notion that's not very popular with today's audiences. So you'd think that TV writers would be very aware of the cultural milieu and the kinds of stories their audiences would accept and feel comfortable with. Then again, all of this development work happened almost 15 years, so perhaps it's simply easy to forget how different the culture was back then? Were other shows similarly potentially sexist at the time? Or maybe sexist is too strong a word here, a sign of a biased viewpoint. In that sense, I could see Ronald D. Moore—who wrote the 2000s Battlestar Galactica, which featured a fantastic femme fatale character, Number Six, and many excellent female characters—as the writer who wrote this episode or set of episodes.

The second question ties to that slightly but goes beyond it. I don't think Lucas is sexist, but I do think he is appreciative of the history of cinema and is not necessarily easily offended by ideas that might anger most people today. So I think that if he saw a value in bringing back the femme fatale trope from noir, for example, then that may have been what this character was intended to be. Film noir is an old genre by now, and I can speak from experience that perhaps it is not a genre most people are too familiar with anymore. So was Lucas perhaps intrigued by the artistic value of the femme fatale trope? We know he certainly was inspired by this role when thinking up Darth Talon as a villain in his sequel treatment, inspired by actress Lauren Bacall.

And tying this role to Palpatine of all people ties to his subversive qualities. Everyone, Ian McDiarmid included, had grown accustomed to seeing Palpatine as a character who was born evil. He's the Devil. But Lucas know the Devil was once good. And indeed most of his villains and heroes end up being what they are in ways different from what we expect. Anakin Skywalker is a war hero, but he's also a gentle, sensitive man who is torn apart by his fears and secrets. Darth Vader is a menacing knight, but he's also a broken man who is enslaved to the choices he made in the past. So why should Palpatine be any different? In that sense, I can start to see why Lucas may have wanted to explore a story that looked at Palpatine's past through a more human lens. He's not who we expect.

 

Lucas it should be reminded has not always had the best ideas. Part of the idiosyncrasy of his own peculiar beliefs and inspirations. Palpatine being treated in a less overtly Satanic light makes sense within the cultural zeitgeist (truly Evil with capital E characters are very rare nowadays) but it is still an ill-conceived idea.

 

It was certainly a risky idea in many different ways.

While I was thinking about who was writing scripts for Underworld and other similar characters from around that era, I was reminded of the character of Ellen Tigh from Battlestar Galactica. Specifically, in the last season's episode No Exit, where much of the show's mysteries are explained, we also get a significant re-contextualization of the character who ends up being the main villain. The Cylon known as John Cavil is revealed to have had a very twisted relationship with his creators, which include Ellen. Not only did the show reveal an entirely new dynamic to the villain, one that is both mythological and very Freudian in its psychology, but it also made him simultaneously more human and more monstrous than he had appeared to be before. I'm not saying Palpatine would've gotten the same exact treatment, but it is an example of the kind of villain backstory that may have been in vogue at the time. Certainly there's even the interesting parallel of having the character's first name revealed as part of the story that gives more insight into their past.

Besides the risks involved in giving Palpatine a more defined psychology, we also have the risk of introducing a potentially hugely sexist idea that a woman was to blame for everything Palpatine did. Earlier I mentioned some of the film noir influences that could've been part of the reasoning for wanting to do this, but this week I was also thinking about some of the mythological influences.

The first figure I thought of, because this character was a prominent figure in the criminal underworld, was the Hellenic Queen of the Underworld, Persephone. Thematically I can't think of too much beyond that role that could be related. But we do have the notion that Persephone was married to the Lord of the Underworld and then also that her absence is noted for bringing pain and despair. Hades was no Devil, but he's often enough equated with that figure for his role as Lord of the Underworld. So if the gangster character from Underworld was truly intended as a past romantic figure for Palpatine, we have that notion that the absence of the Devil's wife has contributed to misery that could've been warded off with her presence. Again, this is definitely blaming the wrong person, but I'm just speculating on thematic influences here that would've made some sense based on what we know.

The other mythological figure I thought of is Eve from the Abrahamic religions. This connection was largely made because I had been thinking of the character Ellen from Battlestar, who fulfills a similar role in that show's lore to Eve. But if we try to interpret thematic links to Underworld, then perhaps the gangster woman could have been the character who introduced Palpatine to the Sith early on in their lives. Indeed, Eve if often blamed for causing Adam to fall, when really it's Adam's choice after all and also it was more actively the Serpent who seduced him through her by playing on his compassion. So perhaps this gangster character could've been a pawn of the Sith intended to bring Palpatine into their fold. This is also still sexist, as it makes the character someone who was manipulated by other male characters who then proceed to kick her off the center stage of the story, but it's a potential mythological link that would make some sense as part of an origin of evil story for Palpatine.

Moving away from mythological influences, another potential way this story could've gone was that the gangster character didn't actually push Palpatine to evil but rather ruined a potential redemption that could've happened for him early on in his life. Let's say Palpatine was already corrupted and trained by Darth Plagueis from a young age, he moves to Coruscant to become a Senator and rise in power as part of their Sith plan. But in the course of doing this he meets this character who seems like a good person at first, and opens up to Palpatine the possibility that perhaps there is an alternate path to his life. She ends up betraying him, because she is described as a heartless gangster after all, and so he ends up doubling down on his commitment to the dark side. But this story would've represented an interesting junction in Palpatine's life where he could have walked away from the dark side, if only true compassion had been offered to him. This idea seems a bit more palatable to me because it doesn't remove Palpatine's evil origin, it places less blame on a woman than it does on the general concept of betrayal, and it does still give us some added depth to Palpatine. There need not even have been any romance for this to work, just a good friendship that turns sour.

Anyway, these are just theories that are fun to speculate about.