main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga The Writing of TESB

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Samnz, Jan 19, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2000
    See, this just proves that movies, love stories, etc, they're all a matter of taste. Because with the changes you're describing, you're obviously missing the point of the "Tracy/Heburn" dynamic (as well as not fully grasping Han's character). It's supposed to be filled with this kind of bickering and bantering back and forth, until the audience is just like "Oh, just get together already!!" For you to want to change it at every turn just proves that it's just not your cup of tea, and that's fine. But I find it fun. And I certainly would NOT change Han's line "Sorry sweetheart, don't have time for anything else…." It's funny! (And that wicked smile he throws her---DAMN!) :D

    I've already covered the merits of character story vs. overall galactic war plot story in a previous post, so I'm not gonna rehash that. Don't worry. But you seem really bugged/confused about them including the Han/Leia love story, so maybe this will clear it up for you a little bit. And this is true! You wanna know why they added the Han/Leia plot in ESB? Simple. They wanted to attract more teenage girls (and women in general) to the movie theatre. They wanted to add something that would engage them and get them involved in the "Star Wars" story. Lucas and co. have admitted it. So that's why it's there. And while I loved the trilogy from ANH, I'm glad they added that extra dimension. For me it was fun and entertaining, and made the movie even better. So yeah, if they had changed Han and Leia to "just friends" it might not have impacted the galaxy as a whole, but for me it would've definitely impacted the movie itself.

    Okay, I get everything you're saying about Anakin/Padme being shown as a destructive relationship, and all that. And you make great points about that. I don't mean to casually dismiss them, I just have no qualms with anything you said there.

    What I *don't* get, is why/how Padme ever fell in love with this guy. It's funny, because why you are up in arms with "Leia loving Han", I'm equally up in arms about Padme loving Anakin.

    And that fireplace scene you mentioned? Oh my god, I find that one of the most cringe-worthy scenes in the entire movie. Not only the pain-inducing dialogue "I'm haunted by the kiss I should never have given you…" (seriously, I know ESB has some, er, questionable dialogue, but "..scruff-looking nerfherder!" almost seems like Shakespeare next to some of these lines). But also, Anakin just comes across as completely CREEPY in this scene. Like obsessive. And weird. I understand that that's kinda how he's supposed to be. But what I *don't* get is why Padme is not completely turned off/scared/"let me phone in a restraining order" by it. And he goes on about being "tormented" at the thought of her or something. It's all very unsettling. Not to mention, that they basically just met. I don't know.

    I don't get. it. I don't buy it.
     
  2. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Yep.

    In general, this is just my personal preference, but I don't like unnecessary romances. And I find it a bit condescending that they're included because there's the perception in Hollywood that women won't be attracted by a fun, well-written, politically motivated story but just throw in a romance and we'll mindlessly flock to it. Not saying that there's anything wrong with enjoying romance, but I don't like that a lot of Hollywood executives seem to think that women are unable to appreciate science fiction/fantasy films on their own merits. The Phantom Menace doesn't have a hint of romance and I still love it just fine.

    I understand what you mean. I think in the 2009 Star Trek movie, they said they included the Spock/Uhura romance specifically because they were thinking of ways to get their wives and girlfriends to go see the film. Which I find rather hilarious given that The Original Series had a lot of female fans without any long-standing romances. It's also undermined by the fact that Spock shows more emotional intimacy with other characters than his girlfriend, but that's another rant for another time.

    I'm glad you like the Han/Leia romance and that a lot of women enjoy additional romances in films. But to me, it makes about as much sense as throwing in a random niece-uncle relationship in every movie to attract a demographic.

    There's also the fact that I think the romance could have been woven into the plot a lot better. Why not portray Leia as not really having dealt with the destruction of Alderaan? Then she and Han can go on a mission for the Rebellion that proves crucial to ROTJ's plot and Han helps her sort out her rage at the Empire when it almost costs them the mission. They could still be captured and used as bait for Luke, but this would give them more relevance to the central plot and address some points from ANH, such as Alderaan's destruction, that were really swept under the rug.

    It's just that movies are so short as it is. I feel like spending time on the romance is a bit of a waste. Although I feel that way about some action scenes as well (looking at you, droid factory in AOTC…).


    See, Anakin isn't a guy I'd fall in love with at all. I find him fascinating as a character and I can identify with a lot of his fears and understand why he does what he does. But I would never want to be involved with the guy. Truthfully, the ideal male from Star Wars, for me, is Luke who is perhaps the nicest and sweetest man in all the films.

    But…when I look at it from Padmé's perspective, I can see why she falls in love with him. And that's why I believe and can even enjoy the love story.

    The fireplace scene is extremely melodramatic (intentionally so according to the commentary) and I agree that it is really cringe-inducing but I like it for that reason. I think of it as the scene where Anakin basically emotionally vomits all over Padmé and neither of them have any idea what to do. Because I think it makes sense for Anakin -- he's a very inexperienced young man who has a huge crush on an older woman and doesn't know how to handle it. He also doesn't really have any examples of healthy relationships to guide him. And he's very lonely and isolated (which makes his feelings all the stronger) so he comes off as incredibly intense.

    I can see why you find the scene creepy and obsessive. For me, what prevents me from seeing it as such is the fact that, when Padmé says she can't live like that, Anakin stops. He just puts an end to it. The next time we see them, Anakin has gone back to calling her Senator. He is formal with her. He doesn't try to kiss her. He doesn't try to touch her. He is a perfect gentleman with her. And that is, well, really brave and rather mature in my opinion.

    It's a difficult thing to admit to someone that you like that you have feelings for them and then to accept a rejection. I think Anakin handles Padmé's refusal very well. He never pushes for it again and he still cares about her. He's still her friend and cares about her safety -- such as when he tells her that Owen and Beru are good people and Padmé will be safe there. After the fireplace scene, it is Padmé who initiates.

    I think, for Padmé, who has spent her whole life submersed in her job serving others, who has dedicated her life to trying to make the galaxy a better place, the fact that Anakin comes to her with his heart very much on his sleeve and makes it clear that he is interested in her as a person (rather than her position as a Queen or Senator) is very compelling for her. And she gets swept up in it -- in him valuing Padmé rather than Queen/Senator Amidala. The fact that he's a bit of a broken head case is, in it's own way, just as appealing for the "fixer" aspect of Padmé's personality and keeps her from feeling guilty about him "risking his future" for her. That's why I can believe that she falls for him. But I don't think a lot (or even most) women would. But for Padmé, I can see why she, in particular, does.
     
    Ezon Pin, minnishe and Bob Octa like this.
  3. ObiAlKenobi

    ObiAlKenobi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Thank you Yanksfan. I was certainly taken aback by it.
     
    Yanksfan likes this.
  4. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
  5. NileQT87

    NileQT87 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    It's not just the idea that romance gets more females into the theater, but the reason to put it in the film is because it challenges Leia and Han so much as characters. It's more interesting to throw the characters for a loop and make them grow. Leia is the "Ice Princess" of Hoth. As the slightly more spelled-out Hoth deleted scene goes, Leia is so focus on duty that she doesn't know how to be a woman and get in touch with her human side. Leia is so wrapped up in her Rebellion that she doesn't even think of her own safety and wouldn't have gotten off of Hoth in time if Han hadn't gone back for her to get her out on the Falcon. She thinks about everyone but herself and her own life. Han is very clear that he wants her to open up. A lot of their bickering is about this.

    Han, of course, has been sticking around the Rebellion rather than paying his debts because 1) he actually does care about the family he's found and Leia is a huge part of that (note that in the first act of ESB he takes charge to save both Luke and Leia on his own), 2) he doesn't really trust that he'll be able to come back because the scum he's running from aren't nice people. Note that three years pass between ANH and ESB. He's been putting off the Jabba visit for a very long time and pretty much appointing himself to keep the kid and the princess safe with very half-hearted intentions to go off to pay his debts. He has a heart of gold under that exterior that he found at the end of ANH when he didn't just run off with the money and helped out Luke. He doesn't actually want to leave his new family, but the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell had his history catching up with him that he could no longer hide from forever. And part of being in the Rebellion was that it was a way to stay low and hide. He's very vulnerable at the end of ESB, so we know he's not infallible. Fear was likely a motivator as well to keep him put for those three years, as well as the opportunity for something more than his old hard knock life.

    "You think a princess and a guy like me..." "No."

    It's all right there really. He sees Luke's selfless naive heroism and Leia's selfless belief in her cause and he has the opportunity to make better for himself than the life he's been leading. And if you include the EU backstory of him having been in the Imperial Academy and saving Chewie, his protective nature predates meeting the kid, even if his lifestyle has it be very dangerous to project caring about anyone but oneself and showing vulnerability. And what does he show at the end of ESB? He's incredibly vulnerable both after he is tortured and in the carbonite chamber. His emotions are written all over his face in both of those scenes. He steps in front of Leia to fire at Vader and he wants Chewie to stop risking himself because he's needed to protect the princess. He takes all the risks in those scenes and lets his past catch up to him because he has people he cares about not getting harmed.

    And as far as when the Han/Leia thing got set-up, it actually is present in ANH. In fact, it was Harrison and Carrie's chemistry in ANH that gave the writers the whole idea to put them together instead of Luke and Leia (and yes, that was the original intention, seeing as the brother/sister story was originally meant for Episodes VII-IX). It actually was a bit more than just wanting females in the theater. There was always going to be a love story, but the actors influenced which characters ended up with it.

    And it was smart for it to be Han and Leia because they really were what the other character needed to really grow and develop. Non-sibling Luke/Leia would be too easy and sweet and wouldn't really stretch the characters. Han and Leia were going at their banter as soon as they met on the Death Star. Han brought out the fiery side in Leia and then the human woman under the dehumanized, closed-off leadership façade she wore. She needed to open up after closing herself off after Alderaan was destroyed. Han was the right kind of personality to see that and push for her to open up and not remain the untouchable, impenetrable "Ice Princess" for the rest of her life. Luke just sort of wide-eyed idolized her, whereas Han saw that she had raised this harmful façade. Her cold reception to him threatening to leave (which he was clearly *still* putting off by choosing to go after Leia and take her to the rendezvous instead) despite him prodding to get a more emotional reaction out of her is very much his behavior of trying to humanize her. He saw her as a human woman bottling her emotions, not as a figure (or "the princess") to be idolized and amazed by, which is how much of her Rebellion saw her. Luke, as sweet and comforting as he is, wouldn't have prodded her to deal with her emotions after Alderaan.

    Frankly, the whole political side of the war between the Empire and the Rebellion is utterly rubbish if you don't care about the characters. Star Wars, at its best, is about the relationships between characters. There is a reason the genre is more accurately "space opera", not "sci-fi". The soap opera of it is actually the heart of the franchise and something that gets overlooked with the undue focus on the Jedi vs. Sith, Empire vs. Rebellion, alien species, X-Wing pilots, etc... window dressing. The Big Three are almost seen as just three of many characters by some fans (and Han and Leia are written off as not even being important to what they see as the "story"!), rather than being the human heart and what the OT films really are about. They *are* the story! The personal scale is the whole point, not the galactic scale. The films are about a small group of people having personal character journeys, not the politics of a universe and who affects it most.
     
  6. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    I'm sorry, but I really disagree with this. The bolded part, especially, is a bunch of bull. A woman who chooses to do her duty and help others is getting in touch with her human side and it has nothing to do with her not knowing how to "be a woman." This is true for both Padmé and Leia -- they aren't less of people for not being with a man. If they are lonely or want someone, then they should be free to pursue that. But there's nothing wrong with a woman who never wants to either, and it doesn't represent some deficiency in her human side.

    A lot of people say that Leia is an "Ice Princess" but i don't agree. You see a lot of tenderness, care, and openness in her interactions with the Rebellion and Luke in particular. When she comforts him after Obi-Wan's death, when she kisses him before the battle, when she embraces him after they rescue him from Vader. She isn't an "Ice Princess" with him and this was already an aspect of her character that I knew and understood. The fact that Han initially rubbed her the wrong way doesn't change that.

    Thing is, I understood that Han cared about Luke, Leia, and the Rebellion when he stuck around and saved them. The romance doesn't really add to that. I know that Han cares deeply about Luke and I didn't need a romance to get that.

    But, moreover, where do you have any evidence for #2? Han never indicates that he doesn't think he would come back. Why would this be a problem? Go to Tatooine, drop off the money to get rid of the bounty then come back to the Rebellion. The Rebellion is already a group of outlaws with the entire government's military looking for them, so I don't see how it would be an issue if he stuck beside them.

    Han has a heart of gold underneath, I agree. But the romance doesn't really show that. His willingness to risk his life for his friends does.
     
  7. anakin_skywalker_sct

    anakin_skywalker_sct Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2001
    I'm another one who doesn't get the Anakin/Padme romance at all. It's not a romance to me. He pursues her like my dog chases rabbits. He makes her uncomfortable, he sweats at the thought of her, and he puts her in positions where they are alone and he gets emotionally unstable and she has to be his mummy consoling him or telling him to behave. And she, despite her obvious education and his obvious social stuntedness, accepts his company. Maybe out of charity, maybe out of loneliness, maybe even nestiness (Lucas hints at this with some of the deleted scenes, but we needed more time for Padme to run on a treadmill, because... yeah) but I cannot for a second buy it as romance. The guy tells her he murdered a village full of sentient beings and she gives him a hug. Then she wears a skintight white unitard to his mother's funeral, in the desert. There's nothing to their relationship beyond "these actors are attractive and their characters are going to have babies".

    I don't read Anakin as backing off at all after the fireplace scene, but even if he did, the fireplace scene shouldn't even have happened, and wouldn't with a real woman, because the guy's a complete lunatic. Padme's probably crazy too, though, because she decides to wear a corset pressing her bosom up to her throat when she tells him how not interested she is. This is not making any sense on paper because, frankly, I don't think Lucas was writing the characters in a lot of these scenes. I think he was writing the actors, and writing the reaction he expected from the audience. He basically assumes that Natalie Portman looking hot is going to sell a romance, and even admits to designing the fireplace outfit himself, which is a tad creepy considering he and McCallum have mentioned they were planning Portman's portrayal as Padme the second they saw Leon...

    At least in Empire, Leia is able to hold her own while stuck with Han, and tell him to back off when she feels like it. She also has reason to be attracted to Han, beyond Harrison Ford being a handsome devil, because this is the guy who has been instrumental in saving the Rebellion, destroying the Death Star and even put his life and ship in jeopardy to get Leia out of harm's way on a couple of occasions, all with a wink and a smile and a degree of charm. There's actual romantic tension there as they rub one another the wrong way while helping each other out at the same time. Anakin's accomplishments by this point are to accidentally blow up a droid control ship when he was 9, kill a few sentient beings and drool all over Padme. While Han holds Leia's hands to help her fix something on the Falcon and gently teases her, Anakin just starts poking Padme on her bare back and whining about sand.

    Even in Return of the Jedi, there is a huge difference in how Leia and Padme are treated and motivated. Leia is forced into the golden bikini, an obvious indignity that comes about through Jabba's perverted tastes and raw power, and while it's fanservice it serves a point by showing what Leia will go through to save Han. Padme dresses to turn Anakin (and the heterosexual male audience) on from the get-go, for no reason other than Lucas wanted to use those designs. I just never see any 'showing' of Anakin loving Padme, he simply tells her (and us) repeatedly. For her part, she sends constant mixed signals until finally saying "I'm about to die so ok I love you" and then does nothing to demonstrate it ever again. Han and Leia put themselves on the line for each other in spite of their natures and priorities. Padme doesn't really do anything for Anakin, and Anakin kills things for her and makes her feel creeped out. As the song goes, where is the love?
     
    Yanksfan and windu4 like this.
  8. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    See, it's funny, because I think what you've written is far more true of the Han/Leia romance than the Anakin/Padmé one. Neither Anakin nor Han make it a secret of their attraction for either Leia or Padmé. The difference is, Padmé never tells Anakin to stop and when she does say they can't be together, he backs off. Contrast this with Han -- when Leia says he is imagining things, he blows her off and keeps pursuing her. When she pushes him back as she is trying to fix a damaged component of the Millennium Falcon, he doesn't back off but instead touches her and doesn't let go when she tells him to stop. Moreover, you say Anakin "puts her in positions where they are alone and gets emotionally unstable" but that's not really true at all. Anakin and Padmé are never really alone and Padmé always has the option to leave. When they are on Coruscant, they are together but surrounded by others. Later on on Naboo, you see plenty of servants around and Padmé, of course, always has the option of taking any issues she has with Anakin's presence with the Queen or the Jedi.

    Contrast this with Han and Leia -- she is trapped aboard his ship in the middle of nowhere with C3P0 (who can be deactivated) and Chewie (Han's best friend). If she doesn't like his advances, she can't just leave and she has no one to appeal to. They are literally trapped together.

    I think you're also missing a larger component of Padmé's character. She's been in politics since she was a young teenager. She may know how to navigate diplomatic relations, but that doesn't translate into competency with interpersonal relationships. Otherwise, I certainly think she would have made some different choices. I've always found it interesting, for example, that when Anakin and Padmé are talking about old loves during the picnic, she mentions someone she was with when she was 12. Which makes sense given that by the time she was 14, she was in charge of a planet.

    I quite disagree. I think Lucas sets them up as two very lonely people who become much too wrapped up in each other. Moreover, in regards to the Tusken slaughter, I think you also have to look at it from Padmé's perspective. For one, she's never seen a Tusken and all she knows about them is that they "walk like men but they're vicious, mindless monsters" according to Cliegg Lars. And that they kidnapped, tortured, and murdered Anakin's mother over the period of a month during which he had incredibly disturbing and realistic dreams of her torment. And the guy lost his **** after she died in his arms. I can see how Padmé -- who is still willing to give the Trade Federation another chance at diplomatic talks after they invaded her planet -- would want to heal him, would give him the benefit of the doubt. Especially since he expresses guilt and shock over his actions.

    Also, I also wanted to point out that white is the color of mourning in many nations in Asia. During Padmé's funeral on Naboo, for example, the Queen is wearing white/silver robes. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that she wore white not just for practical reasons (they were getting ready to depart after all) but also chose the color to signify mourning according to her cultural traditions. That and it is freaking hot in the desert which is why the people wear white in the first place. You don't wear black unless you want to pass out from heatstroke.

    I don't really see what is "lunatic" about the fireplace scene. He's a very intense, inexperienced guy who is trying to explain what he feels. He doesn't issue ultimatums. He doesn't tell Padmé that she "has" to be with him. He doesn't press her up against a wall. And, yes, Padmé is attracted to him and that shows in the way she dresses. She's conflicted because she knows that they can't be together because he's a Jedi and she feels guilty about what he would have to give up -- his future -- to be with her. And they're both well aware that hiding a potential relationship is going to cause major problems.

    The fireplace scene is a giant foreshadowing of their relationship. Look at what Padmé is wearing -- a corset dress with a choker around the neck. Look at Anakin's dialogue about how when he thinks of not being with her and can't breathe. Look at the flames behind Padmé. Anakin's line about how it will destroy them. All of this is clearly acknowledging the eventual fate of the relationship -- Mustafar and Darth Vader. Where Anakin's possessiveness and desire for control will finally cause him to erupt into violence against her. The outfit isn't about (or not only about) the "hotness" factor. It's as much about how Anakin's intensity and attachment issues as well as Padmé's insistence that they keep their relationship secret is going to cause everything to implode.

    Also…wow. You know might want to not ascribe motivations to people you don't know. Given that Natalie Portman turned in a great performance in Leon, it's not unreasonable that they were impressed with her talent.

    Oh…and Harrison Ford accepted Roman Polanski's Oscar for him and has championed his "freedom." You know, Roman Polanski who drugged and raped a 13 year old girl? Yeah...

    Natalie Portman has supported him as well.

    I don't really see Leia as "holding her own." She never initiates with Han. Instead, it seems like she is constantly rebuffing and he keeps insisting until he gets what he wants.

    Everything you wrote about Han is also true about Anakin. Many women find Anakin quite handsome. Anakin was instrumental in saving Naboo and freeing Padmé's people. He has also served as a Jedi for the Republic for the past ten years and saved Padmé's life from an assassination attempt right in the beginning of the film. I don't really see how Han is all that much different from Anakin in this area.

    I, personally, don't find Han's "nicknames" for Leia all that charming -- your Worship and you Highnessness are more of things I would expect to hear from a child than a grown man. Obviously many people find him attractive, though, so it's clear that preferences vary.

    Saying that Han holds Leia's hands to help her is also kind of misleading given that she pushes him off her, tells him to stop, and they don't really end up fixing anything. Anakin saying he doesn't like sand isn't really an indication of Padmé not wanting him around her. Especially given that, in the scene, Padmé was talking about her childhood and Anakin latched on to basically the only thing he could relate to (the sand) given that he didn't go to school (certainly not school retreats) and where he grew up, there wasn't enough water to swim.


    Oh, please. The bikini was put there to titillate the male audience as much as anything Padmé wore. And honestly, what is wrong with Padmé's dresses? If she attracted to him but conflicted about her feelings and chooses dresses that reflect that, why is that a problem? She isn't strung up like a piece of meat to display. Yes, she has a lot of beautiful dresses, but I don't see anything wrong with them.

    Anakin's love for Padmé is unhealthy (kind of hard to avoid given that what he becomes) in that he's pathologically attached. But the most inappropriate thing he does towards her is look at her when she's asked him to stop. He never stops her from contacting anyone, never pushes her up against a wall, doesn't try to isolate her, and when she says they can't be together, he backs off. Anakin has a nightmare and Padmé decides to go with him. She decides to to come up and hug him before he departs to seek out his mother. She goes down to see if he's alright in the garage. She admits she loves him without any prompting from him.

    I think you're making the mistake of thinking because you don't like Anakin, there is no way that Padmé can. And that's a very odd mindset to take, in my opinion.

    I don't particularly find Han attractive and can't really relate to Leia liking him, but that doesn't mean that my feelings should be projected onto Leia.

    My biggest issue with the Han/Leia relationship is that the film portrays some of Han's wrong actions in a positive light.

    Anakin does many things that are much, much worse than Han, but the film never pretends that they aren't horrible and never fails to have Anakin pay rather dearly for them. The Tusken slaughter, his murder of the younglings and the Jedi, his choking of Padmé -- all of these things are portrayed (quite rightly) as very, very wrong. And Anakin doesn't get to live happily ever after following such actions. They directly lead to him screwing himself over.
     
    Ezon Pin and Bob Octa like this.
  9. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Not a lame attempt at all, I was about to say something similar :) I enjoyed your view on Leia in ESB in a similar vein.
    I think your quite right with whether you "feel" it or not. Ultimately, writing and acting is an interpretation of human behaviour. The way we perceive that combination of writing and acting then is another interpretation of human behaviour which means that our individual experiences, interests, lifes etc. have a profound effect on the way we see and feel it.
    That was also the reason why I probably overreacted a bit in regard to ObiAlKenobi, because I just can't stand when people stop argumenting for themselves and start referring to some sort of "authority" that has no relevance.

    I made myself not very clear. I meant the fatal mistake was living a lie. The fatal mistake was not being a couple per se.
    I actually don't know if Anakin lived with her or not. I assumed he could spent some nights there but was still bound to be in the Temple for a certain amount of time.

    Hard to tell. ANH still received better reviews than TESB by movie critics when they were both re-released in 1997 (17 years after TESB's premiere). I always thought that ESB started to become "people's favourite" when some started to lose faith in Lucas during the Prequel era.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    I think its somewhere between 1988 and 1994. I think "Clerks" was the first one to popularize the notion that TESB was better because it was darker and had a down ending, whereas ROTJ had Ewoks and Muppets. With the rise of the internet and online communication, it became more readily apparent. I didn't know until I had started reading "Wizard" magazine in late 96, that there was a less than favorable view of ROTJ. I didn't see "Clerks" until later. But that was the first that I was familiar with any kind of dissent.
     
    FRAGWAGON likes this.
  11. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    It's an interesting one, because whenever the critical reception for TESB, particularly compared with other films in the saga, is raised, the two polar responses tend to be either that it's critically acclaimed, look at Rotten Tomatoes, or that it wasn't initially that well received and here's an example. But there's a fair bit of time and space between the initial release and the current favour, so something must've happened in the interim. Maybe it was Clerks, maybe it was the internet. Maybe it's just bloody good!

    Regarding Ice Princess Leia. I don't know about that, but at times in ANH she's certainly a bit of a cow. Luke turns up to rescue her and gets given stick about his height. Chewie is racially abused as a walking carpet and Han is 'Fly Boy' I know being a pilot probably doesn't rate as a good job when you're a princess, but you know, it's an honest (ish) living for many people.
     
  12. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    I think Leia's always demonstrated a more Sugar and Ice Personality than anything. She has a very cold, even acerbic side but she's also very kind-hearted and can be gentle and open. You see this second aspect of her personality shine through a lot with her interactions with Luke or even other members of the Rebellion. The genuine, pure happiness on her face as he embraces her in ROTJ is a good example but there's some lovely moments in ANH as well.
     
  13. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    I like the ways she's portrayed in this regard. Despite her great compassion for the people of the galaxy on a big picture level, she's not really a person of the people in ANH. She doesn't suffer fools easily and she thinks most people are fools compared to her. I buy that. I know people like that. Good and capable people, but not particularly empathetic on the micro level. In the course of the OT I think her character develops significantly in this regard. By the time she hits Endor the Ewoks are treated with courtesy and respect rather than exasperated sighs and being labelled walking ... bathmats.
     
  14. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Walking bathmats. Ha ha lol [face_rofl][face_laugh]
     
  15. Bob Octa

    Bob Octa Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 6, 2013
    Mod edit: Films, not fans
     
    Samnz likes this.
  16. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    All Star Wars scripts leave lots of room for interpretation. That's why we're still discussing them!





    Star Wars is forever
    /LM
     
    FRAGWAGON likes this.
  17. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Do you guys actually believe that Anakin was trying to "stalk" Padme or force himself upon her in that fireplace scene in "Attack of the Clones"? I can't believe that people are still buying that crap. Padme was "uncomfortable" because he was expressing her own attraction toward him . . . and she believed that his position as a Jedi padawan would make him unavailable to her. Good grief!!

    I didn't realize that so many "STAR WARS" fans equated "courtly love" dialogue to sexual stalking.



    Exactly how was Anakin's love for Padme unhealthy and pathologically attached? You might as well say the same for Luke's feelings regarding Leia and Han. After all, his love for Leia nearly drove him to kill his father. Chewie's feelings for Han drove the former toward attempted murder. And Leia's feelings for Han led her to supporting Chewie's attack. Padme's feelings for Anakin led her to get into a secretative marriage . . . and later prevent him from telling the truth about said marriage.

    Or is Anakin's love labeled "pathologically" and "unhealthy", because he became a Sith Lord?
     
    FRAGWAGON likes this.
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The problem is that so much of what was once considered normal, is now considered completely creepy and stalkerish. And in their view, the way Hayden looked made it worse. It's the same way someone else here has objections with the way Han and Leia had their relationship in TESB.



    Partially. The problem with Anakin is that while he loves Padme, he's loving her in the wrong ways as well. It's subtle in AOTC because they're still trying to figure things out, but the part that is unhealthy is that he's been obsessing over her for a ten year period. I know what it's like to have had feelings for someone that I saw once and still had them, a couple of years after not seeing them again. But even after a while that starts to go away and you move on. Anakin didn't because he wanted things to be like they were ten years earlier. By the time of ROTS, at which point they are married and happily in love, the unhealthy aspect is centered around trying to prevent her death because of how it will affect him.
     
  19. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2000
    Okay, this is slightly off-topic, and probably further proof that I've seen these movies way too much, but am I the only who has noticed that Leia calling Han "fly boy" doesn't' really make sense? I mean, she just met him, they've barely talked, and he's disguised in Storm Trooper gear. How on earth did she know he was pilot? Is that The Force at work again? :p


    On a more topic-related note: I have to admit it gets irritating every time someone tries to tell me that EBS is a "fan favorite" due to media brainwashing, or some sort of "Internet hive mentality". Come on, can you just give us more credit than that? I decided ESB was my favorite when I rediscovered the trilogy in high school. The Internet as we know it didn't even exist yet, and any pop-culture references would've been way off my radar at the time. So, yeah, I formed my opinion the old-fashioned way: I watched all the movies and decided which one I found most interesting, entertaining, engaging, etc. and that movie became my "favorite". And I seriously doubt that I'm the only ESB fan who developed their opinion this way. :)

    I mean, seriously, the offensive PT equivalent is probably being told you only like the prequels because you're all in denial and are a bunch of Lucas apologists. ;)
     
  20. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    I've never thought of that, but you're dead right! Must be the high midichlorian count that she has which enables her to do that.

    For the record, that's exactly how I came to appreciate TESB in adulthood too. In the early 90s, after reading the Thrawn Trilogy actually, I dug out the old SW VHS's and got right back into it. My childhood love of ROTJ was quickly replaced by a preference for TESB and at the time, to a lesser extent, ANH.
     
    NileQT87 and Yanksfan like this.
  21. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008

    You're acting as if this is specifically a problem of Anakin's. And it's not. Many of the saga's major characters have made some seriously bad decisions due to their emotional attachment to someone . . . or something. I've already pointed this out in my last post. Yet, you're still acting as if Anakin was the only character who had this problem.


    Anakin wants things to be as they were ten years before his reunion with Padme? Why? They were merely friends. By AOTC, it was obvious that he wanted something more. And I can say the same about Padme, even if she was reluctant to admit it at first.

    You have a very black-and-white view regarding attachments. And I don't know whether to blame Lucas, many fans who cannot view the Saga in complex terms or both. There is nothing specifically special about Anakin's inability to deal with his attachments. Why? Because he wasn't the only major character who failed to deal with attachments in a healthy way. Most of the major characters - in both trilogies - were just as guilty.
     
  22. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2000
    I don't know, DRush76 I wouldn't say the other characters were "just as guilty" as Anakin. Luke goes after Vader for threatening his sister. In that case, he was responding to an immediate threat, and was attempting to take it out on the person directly responsible for said threat. And in the end? He doesn't actually kill Vader, does he? He stops himself. In the case of Leia/Chewie choking Lando...yeah, Han's already been harmed, damage done. But again, at least they're both aiming their wrath at one of the people they think are directly responsible for it. Perhaps it's morally questionable, but considering this is happening in the immediate aftermath and they're both probably still horrified/enraged/traumatized, it's kinda understandable. But in any event, in this case they didn't actually kill Lando either. Would they have if Lando hadn't piped up about possibly saving Han? Maybe. But maybe not. We'll never know. But as it stands, Lando lives. So no harm done in the end. In both these cases, all three characters lashed out, but there was no huge body count at the end of it.

    Anakin, on the other hand…he's acting on a "perceived" threat to Padme, merely a "feeling"--and yes, I know he's a Jedi and everything, but "always in motion is future", so he really can't say with any certainty that he's right. And it's not like he goes after someone who's a direct threat to her or anything (what's he gonna do, assassinate "child birth"?), but rather he allows Palpatine to manipulate him into helping perform genocide and killing all theJedi. He murders innocent children--I'm sorry, were they gonna hurt Padme, too? His actions are desperate and irrational, and all so he can selfishly try to gain the power to save her. See that? He killed hundreds in an attempt to save one. Unheatlhy attachment issues. (And he didn't even save her in the end!)

    I don't know. There seems to be a big difference to me.
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    There's even Sith who recognize the danger of that degree of attachment:

    "Want everything you wish, hunger, burn for it, if that fuels you. But never love anyone or anything so much that you cannot bear to lose it."
    (Lady Rhea, Lost Tribe of the Sith)
     
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  24. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008


    I knew it. I knew the moment I had made that last post, someone would make excuses for the actions of the other characters and solely continue to condemn Anakin "only". I knew it. Thank you for living up to my assumptions.
     
  25. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2000
    And thank you for replying to my points at all. Speaking of points, do you have one?

    Edit: Dude, seriously. Please tell you're not actually having trouble distinguishing the difference between mass murder and attacking (but not killing) one person. Please. Otherwise, I will have to back away slowly from this thread with my hands up.
     
    windu4 and anakinfansince1983 like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.