Saga The Writing of TESB

The level of pre-meditation as well as the level of follow through set Anakin's actions apart in my opinion.

 

How nice. Another excuse to dismiss the questionable actions of other characters, while condemning Anakin's.

Here's my point, dear. Apparently, very few have the courage to condemn not only Anakin's, but the actions of the other characters as well, because the latter were not portrayed as villains. Many fans are so desperate to view the characters with a black-and-white morality, and at the same time, dismiss the complex nature of these characters (unless said character was Mace Windu).

This inability to view the characters in a morally ambiguous light strikes me as a reflection of humanity's inability to regard itself in a morally ambiguous light. It's easy to regard a small percentage of people being capable of great evil. But deep down, people seem incapable of considering the posibility that just about anyone is capable of great evil or major mistakes. Humans like to regard themselves better than they really are. And this attitude seems to be reflected in their attitudes toward fictional characters - like those found in the STAR WARS saga.

 

I think, actually, all that was being pointed out was that there is a massive difference between throttling somebody you are really angry with - and not even really harming them - and going on a merry spree of mass murder.

That is not a question of moral 'greyness', I think you'll find even the most broad minded of societies would recognise the distinction.

 

Actually it's not a question of condemnation or dismissal. It's a question of acknowledging the vast difference in scale of the respective actions. Most reputable legal systems do the same.

 

For what it's worth, I have no problem viewing my favorite characters in a "morally ambiguous" light. Han is purposely introduced to us this way in ANH. Same with Lando in ESB. And I think Luke's lesson by the cave in ESB was there to illustrated that even *he* has the ability to go down the dark path if he's not careful. So you're wrong there, dear.

I do have a problem, however, with equating Anakin's evil deeds with the "morally ambiguous" actions of those other characters. Do I think Anakin deserves my condemnation more than the others? Damn right, I do. But I hardly think that means I see things in "black and white".

Truthfully, the only character (besides Palpatine) that I could see even being put on the same level as Anakin (and perhaps even passing him) is Tarkin. He earned that distinction when he gave the order to destroy Alderaan.

 

ESB would be my favorite if it wasn't for the Han and Leia romance/bicker-flirting. Waste of two characters for me.

 

Han/Leia is a Star Wars romance to the hilt; truncated, abbreviated, read-between-the-corny-lines, stilted direction and acting.

All good stuff if you ask me. If I didn't cringe a little it wouldn't be the same.

Even with the two toughest characters it comes off as naive. I like that about it.

 

I cringed at some parts of the Leia/Han romance. I did the same for the Anakin/Padme romance. Neither is perfect, in my opinion. But since Leia and Han is portrayed as a more "modern" romance, fans tend to prefer it.

 

They're very different, and that is as it should be. Each episode 1 through 6 are wonderfully original. Hopefully Episode VII will have it's own unique vibe that doesn't copy what came before it.

Even the returning characters should be very different, as the passage of time demands. Personally I hope they go for more of an extreme contrast. I.e., Han Solo as a divorced drunk with an eyepatch.

 

Anakin is the only one whose bad decisions lead to his becoming a Sith Lord. That's why it is his problem and not Luke's, who didn't turn. Nor Leia. Nor Han. Nor Obi-wan. Luke came to understand his problems and learned from his mistakes. Anakin didn't until the very end when he turned back to the light.

You're misunderstanding it. Anakin wants things as they were because that was the best time in his life. He was a podracer without great responsibility. He could go home to his mother. He could tinker around in Watto's shop and at home and lose himself for hours on end. And what's more, Padme actually seemed to care for him. At the start of AOTC, he perceives her reaction to him as polite indifference, whereas he's done nothing but thought of her for ten years. He expresses this to Jar Jar, who has to tell him that this was the happiest he's seen her in a long time and Obi-wan has to reassure him that she was glad to see them. Then when Shmi dies, Anakin is upset because he wanted to come back and find that nothing had changed. But it had. Shmi was sold and then freed. She had married and lived a life different from what he knew. And now she was dying in his arms. Padme has feelings for him, but won't reciprocate because of their responsibilities to the Republic. Back then, things were easier as he said. Now they're harder which is the shock of growing up. Anakin has an attachment to the life that he once had and has to learn to let that go. He doesn't. Later on, he has a new life and a new scenario going that suits him just fine. He feels that he is happy and content in this new life, but that reality is quickly beginning to unravel and once again, change is coming and once again, he is afraid of it.

He was the only one who became evil and killed a bunch of people, because of his inability to deal with his attachments.

 

Oh, I see. It's a problem for Anakin, because he became a Sith Lord? That's your answer? And yet the emotional decisions of other characters led to problems or disasters for them. You do recall this . . . right? Or are their bad decisions dismissed, because they didn't become a Sith?

 

One person successful takes pre-planned, homicidal actions against multitudes, others take spur of the moment actions against someone which don't result in death, and we're seriously still debating whether these actions can be compared with each other?

 

Luke: Emotionally upset that Obi-wan was killed by Vader and on top of knowing that Vader had killed his father. Goes off to face Vader when Han and Leia are threatened. Loses a fight to Vader and his hand, before finding out that Vader is his father. Luke learns a lesson in patience from this experience and his humbled by it. By resisting Vader at Cloud City, he is able to resist him and Palpatine later on. Luke almost turns when Leia is threatened, but he stops and realizes what he is doing and what it was that turned his father.

Leia: Keeps it together for the bulk of two films. Has a moment of emotional weakness when she realizes that she might lose Luke, but is able to pull herself together to carry on the fight. Falls in love with a good man.

Han: Keeps it together for two films and by ROTJ, he's faced with his feelings for Leia and Luke. He is briefly jealous of Leia's ability to confide in Luke and not him, but he lets go of those feelings and embraces Leia. Later on, he opts to bow out thinking that Leia is in love with Luke more than him. A completely selfless action that her father could never do. He grows over time from thinking about himself and to thinking of others.

Anakin: Has fear, anger and resentment for the first dozen years he's away from Tatooine. He makes decisions based on emotions such as wanting to find the assassin and their boss, telling Padme how he feels, losing his cool when talking about Obi-wan. He lets his emotions carry him back to Tatooine and then he commits a terrible crime. He lets his emotions carry him in his battles with Dooku and almost blows a mission because of his emotions, whereas Luke stuck with the mission. Anakin lets his personal loyalties interfere with his duty. He chooses to lie to his Master and the Council about what he has done up to this point. He chooses to disobey orders and this leads to his becoming an agent of evil. He attacks his wife out of anger because he has no control over himself. He winds up in a walking iron lung because of his anger.

See where I'm going with this?

 

No, I don't. Because you are willingly forgetting other things. You've obviously have forgotten Chewbacca and Leia's angry reaction to Han's capture in ESB. Chewie's act and Leia's support prevented Lando from rescuing Han. You've forgotten that Han was so busy patting himself on the back for evading the Imperial Fleet using a trick that he remained unaware of Boba Fett following him to Bespin for a certain period of time. You've forgotten that Han and Leia were so busy thinking of themselves and Luke that they failed to realized that their presence had endangered Lando and the citizens of Bespin. You've forgotten that it was Palpatine's big mouth that enabled Luke to prevent himself from turning. If the Emperor had not opened his mouth and gloated, who knows what would have happened to Luke . . . and Vader. You've forgotten about Obi-Wan and Yoda's lies to Luke. You've forgotten that Obi-Wan left Anakin to slowly burn to death on a lava bank, instead of killing him immediately. You've forgotten that both Yoda and Mace Windu tried to kill Palpatine without any authorization and in a state of emotion. You've forgotten about the mistakes the Jedi made in their efforts to maintain the order and their connection to the Senate. You've forgotten that Padme willingly entered into a secret marriage to Anakin . . . or that she convinced him to maintain the lie, when he wanted to tell the truth. You've forgotten that in a fit of anger and frustration, Padme paved the way for Palpatine to become Chancellor. You've forgotten that Padme allowed her emotions to support a war that she was initially against. You've forgotten that Han cold refused to help Luke free Leia on the Death Star, until the younger man promised a reward.

Apparently, you've forgotten about the mistakes and flaws about a good number of characters in some effort to sell the idea that only Anakin possessed some special personality quirk that led him to make numerous mistakes and embrace evil. You've also forgotten that he was not the only former Jedi in the saga who became a Sith Lord. Remember Count Dooku?

 

DRush76

I think, though, they can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that darth-sinister and others aren't saying that Anakin alone possessed a special personality quirk. I think most would agree that Anakin's flaws are not unique to him and that Anakin is not the only character to make mistakes.

But I do think a distinction has to be drawn due to characters' choices. Anakin isn't (inherently) any more evil than Luke, Leia, Han, Obi-Wan, Padmé, etc. But it's his choices that lead him into evil. He chooses to embrace selfishness, obsession, and need for control/domination and chooses to do terrible things because of them. Having a secret marriage, being angry at someone's capture, trying to maintain a connection to the Senate are all very ill-advised, but the choices the characters made that led up to them aren't evil. Killing others for personal gain is. And continued to serve a genocidal dictator for twenty years is as well.

The characters are all equally flawed human beings, but their actions are not equally evil.

 

Exactly. There's a difference between delaying in Han's rescue and killing and betraying all your friends and family because Anakin cannot put everyone ahead of himself. Having emotions isn't the problem so much as being a Jedi, you have to control your emotions, otherwise you become a slave to them as the Force is fueled by emotions. Anakin's actions lead to his making terrible choices again and again. The others didn't become evil because of their choices, Luke especially because he saw what would happen if he did. His pathetic shell of a father is proof of that.

 

To speak way back to the OP, I do agree that the Rebellion / Empire conflict is marginalized after the first act, but I don't see that as a weakness, it's what makes the film so intimate. It becomes smaller and focused on Our Heroes trying to save themselves from the Big Bad Empire (which is established as rather easily swatting down Rebellions, Hoth I would not say comes off as a "victory" in the film). By establishing in the opening seconds that Vader is "Obsessed with finding Young Skywalker" it focuses the intensity of the Imperial war machine on the protagonists, making it even more intense than just Rebels vs. Imps. Which is why Han and Leia are on their heels the whole 2nd act. The Empire just took out the whole damn Rebellion, what chance to they have? And even when they think they found safety, the aforementioned safety either tries to eat them alive, or betray them to Darth Vader. It may be called "Star Wars" but it's about these specific people, which by the end boils down to Luke vs. Vader. I think the movie is an excellent example of showing a big, wide universe and then telling a story about the main characters inside of it, and keep having things go wrong the whole damn time.

I always felt that if ESB has a singular, self-contained, non-cliffhanger-y theme, moreso than any other movie in the Saga, is that "You need a little help from your friends." It's established early on when Han is the only one who can save Luke. It's about them being there for each other. Things go very very badly once Luke separates from Han & Leia (heck, the second Luke walks away from Han the freakin' AT-ATs start blowing the damn place up!) and the only time things get better is right at the end when they all meet up again. But even then it was at the cost of one of their friends, a friend they end the movie vowing to save. It's a smaller character piece with Big Intergalactic Stuff happening at the fringes. Which is why it's so damn involving.

 

Han's rescue was delayed, because Chewbacca and Leia put their own feelings above everything else.


You guys don't understand, do you? Anakin wasn't the only one who made choices that led to a great deal of negative things. You don't consider Chewbacca strangling Lando in a fit of anger and Leia supporting his action, evil? I do. And because of Chewie's act and Leia's refusal to try to stop him, Lando failed to save Han from Boba Fett. Some of you consider Lando's "betrayal" of Han as evil. I don't see how on earth I could excuse Obi-Wan's decision to leave a defenseless Anakin to slowly burn to death on a lava bank. I realize that many of you don't, but I saw it as an act of evil. I still do, because it struck me that Obi-Wan's decision came from a great deal of anger, cruelty and vindictiveness. I consider both Mace and Yoda's decisions to murder Palpatine as signs that they gave in to their own negative emotions and traits. And I consider both actions as evil.

Just because Anakin's decisions and actions led him to become a Sith Lord, doesn't mean that he was the only one who gave in to evil. And even if some of the characters didn't give in to evil, some of their bad decisions originated from their own negative traits.

Why is it that the misplaced or evil actions/decisions of protagonists are always excused by the fans of this franchise (unless said protagonist is Mace Windu)? Many fans keep saying that they understand that all of the characters are capable of evil. Yet, these very fans continue to make excuses for the good guys or deliberately turn a blind eye to their questionable actions.
One of the things that I find interesting about ESB is that many of the characters - especially the good guys - made decisions that had negative impacts. The movie is almost like a dress rehearsal for the Prequel Trilogy.

 

This conversation spins right round, baby, right round, like a record, baby, right round round round…….

 

What Chewie did was not an act of evil that would turn him evil. What Chewie did was vent his frustrations on Lando who had betrayed them. What Anakin did was choose to become evil because he was afraid to be alone in the universe. What Obi-wan did was not born from anger and hatred, but was born from the conflict due to the oath that he swore, a part of the Jedi Code, which prevented him from killing a helpless being and his duty to destroy a Sith Lord. He made a compromise not born from negative emotions, but from his own weakness which was his inability to be objective.

Lando's betrayal was not an act of evil. He was placing the needs of the citizens of Cloud City above his friend, an act that follows the tenants of the Jedi Code. Mace was right in wanting to arrest Palpatine, but was wrong to be goaded into trying to kill him, but only because it forced Anakin into acting as he did.

 

I cannot disagree with the OP more.

A few important things to remember about the writing of the Empire Strikes Back:

1. From 1980 to 1997, the Empire Strikes Back defined the Force. The audience gets trained in what the Force is, right along with Luke, in the swamps of Dagobah.

2. It transformed Vader seamlessly in just one opening segment from the lackey that he was in A New Hope, to a commanding and imposing Dark Lord. Vader really becomes Vader in this movie. It really defines him.
"Asteroids do not concern me, Admiral. I want that ship - not excuses."
"You have failed me for the last time... Admiral."
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."
"The Force is with you, young Skywalker... but you are not a Jedi yet."

Vader as we know him didn't even exist until this movie. This is how we see him in A New Hope now, but not until after the fact.

Empire Strikes Back is responsible for the what many people think is the greatest villain of all time. That's all TESB.

3. Yoda. Forget all the explanations of the Force, TESB is the Yoda character, and considering he's just a 1980's puppet, he's a pretty compelling character. That's impressive.

This is all awesome stuff.

The way Chewy howls when the blast doors close, the way the Falcon finally starts and blasts off just as Vader is rounding the corner, Boba Fett's entire character, the asteroid field.

The Empire Strikes Back is on a level of greatness and near flawless execution that none of the other five can match.

 

His love is labelled such because the attachment was so unreasonably strong that the mere threat of losing Padme was used against him to goad him into a killing spree that included a lot of his former colleagues, assaulting his pregnant wife, and an attempt on the life of his best friend and mentor.


No one is arguing that any of the other characters aren't flawed in their own ways. You seem to have problems delineating between poor decisions, rash behaviour, and evil acts. Can an action be all three of these things? Yes. Does an act having one of these traits automatically make it all of them? No.

• Anakin and Padme keeping their marriage secret - poor decision, yes. Evil? No
• Vader kills Ozzel and Needa for their incompetence. Rash? No. Poor decision making? I'd say so. Evil? Yes.
• Han and Leia seeking refuge in Cloud City. Poor decision - arguably yes. Evil? No, as they didn't know the Empire was still tracking them and the alternative was a slow death in space.
• Anakin cuts Windu's hand off. Rash? Yes. Poor decision? Yes. Evil - if we're confining this just at the act of stopping him killing Palpatine, probably no.
• Chewie and Leia reacting with rage after the man that they loved had been encased in carbonite and handed over to a bounty hunter. Rash? Yes. Poor decision? Arguably. Evil? No - they didn't know that there was a chance to save Han until Lando brought it up after Chewie got his hands on him. They weren't aware that they were willfully wasting time. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a poor decision, but it means that mentally they weren't prioritising revenge against Lando over saving Han.
• Luke reacting with anger and battering Vader into submission after Vader threatened to corrupt Leia. Poor decision? Arguable either way. Rash - yes. Evil? Perhaps a little bit - but that's literally the point of the entire scene - he approaches evil, realises he is in the wrong and then rejects it. Luke manages to catch himself before falling entirely to the dark side, downs his weapon and accepts his fate.
• Obi Wan leaving Vader burning and dismembered on Mustafar. Poor decision - yes. Rash - no. Evil - depends on the reasons you impart for leaving him there. If you believe he left him there to suffer, then probably yes. If you go with the novelisation canon (accorded a similar level of status for the purpose of the Saga board as the film itself) then he had to immediately leg it to escape from Palpatine and tend to Padme.

Let us now compare this with the fall of Anakin in an exercise to demonstrate why people are harsher on him.

In a moment of rash poor decision making he stops Windu killing Palpatine (if we're to believe that this isn't an evil act in itself then this of course requires us to assume that Anakin had no idea that Palpatine would then finish off Windu, which I am willing to do for the purposes of this exercise).

Palpatine then promises to read up so that when Anakin comes back from murdering all of his colleagues and the political and military leaders of the CIS they can nut out how to save Padme. Anakin then leads the massacre at the Jedi temple, including that of defenceless children. He then also murders all of the CIS leaders.

During his interplanetary murder spree we're shown that he knows what he is doing is wrong, but he continues on with it anyway. He then assaults his pregnant wife after she suggests she's going to leave him. He then attempts to kill his best friend and mentor Obi Wan after deciding that Obi Wan had turned Padme against him.

This raises two important distinctions between this and any thing any other character does. The first is magnitude - he's killed a lot of people, most of whom are defenceless and a lot of whom are innocent. Then he attacked his pregnant wife. The second is his understanding that what he is doing is wrong - we're shown that he knows it's the wrong thing to do but he continues anyway - he has a mental intent to be evil. Scale, and intent. That's why people judge Anakin.