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There are no plot holes in the Saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthWolvo23, Jan 22, 2006.

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  1. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2005
    This is a risky business, but here goes.

    Over the years I have been struggling with the explainations to some of the saga's supposed plot holes.

    After the release of Sith, I initially felt let down by the film due to its apparent lack of explaination for many of the saga's burning issues.

    After a few more viewings of this, and the other five films...along with the clone wars cartoons (a VITAL part of the saga IMO), I have now reached a point where I believe I have a satisfactory explaination for any potential plot hole.

    These explainations may not be everyone's cup of tea but I am willing to offer my view/answer to any plot hole a fan on these boards would care to bring up and hopefully spark up some lively debate along the way!!!


    Post away fellow fans...


     
  2. PalpatineAntikristos

    PalpatineAntikristos Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Oct 6, 2002
    I think you should have titled this thread, "There is No Conflict!"
     
  3. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 28, 2005
    Go get 'em Darth Wolvo!

     
  4. Spike_Spiegel

    Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 12, 2002
    The spirit of this thread is more suited for SWC, however I am open to having a thread discussing the possibility vs lack of plot holes in the saga. I'd like this to be more of a discussion. With your permission, Wolvo, I'm changing the title of the thread to make it more Saga friendly. Thanks.
     
  5. PalpatineAntikristos

    PalpatineAntikristos Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Oct 6, 2002
    I've been visiting these forums since 2001, and have been registered since 2002, and have not seen any so-called plot hole that has not explained by fans in some semi-cogent manner, except for the question of age appearances across the saga, both of Anakin and Kenobi, as well as Palpatine/Sidious between AOTC and early ROTS. I understand that Lucas apparently changed his point of view by shifting the "timeline" in the PT to make the characters be younger than they apparently were in the OT in order to portray Anakin as a child, and thus his fallen from innocence in a more striking manner, but I think there should have been an "in universe" explanation for this that does not involve the desert climate of Tatooine causing skin problems and the appearance of premature aging. Granted, Star Wars is a creation of Lucas' mind, and thus self contained with its own rules, but we as fans still have to wrap our minds around these apparent disunities wile watching the films even in the face of the fantastic and otherworldly rules of the GFFA, where the technology is so much more advanced than what we can comprehend.

    In watching the six films in a row, it is rather disconcerting still and takes me out of the fantasy world of the films into reality because I begin to think about the differences in appearances and their reasons. I see this when watching AOTC to ROTS, when I see the gaunt, apparently weak, ultra-pale Palpatine making his senate speech and reviewing his troops to then seeing him sitting in a chair looking relatively less wrinkled in ROTS and then talking to Mace with a glowing, full face. I then go to ANH, and am confronted by the wizened wizard that is Obi Wan, aged only 20 years or so after we saw him as a vibrant youth in ROTJ. Most strikingly, I watch ROTJ, and Vader/Anakin is unmasked, revealing an old man apparently in his 70s or 80s who just 20 plus years ago was, lava encounter notwithstanding, again vibrant and amazing in his abilities. Yes, all this is possible, especially in a galaxy that has rules so far advanced and different than ours, but it is simply not presented on screen.
     
  6. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 28, 2005
    Okay, Darth Wolvo.


    Why does Leia remember Padme but Luke doesn't?

    Why does Obi-Wan tell Luke that Owen felt Anakin should stay on Tatooine and not get involved when Owen knew Anakin for a grand total of 30 minutes?

    Why does Obi-Wan say that Darth Vader was pupil of his until he turned to evil when Anakin was a Jedi Knight not a padawan?

    Why does Darth Vader call himself a master?

    Why can't the Jedi Masters sense a Sith Lord that is five feet away from them?

    Why does Qui-Gon get to be a ghost?

    What does blue milk taste like?

    How does a space slug reproduce?
     
  7. The_Chibi_Kiriyama

    The_Chibi_Kiriyama Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 9, 2005
    Here's another to throw in the mix: why is it Yoda can sense the Dark Side of the Force in a residual amount in a cave on Dagobah, but can't sense that the Clone Troopers (with numbers over a millon) have a malignant role in the Republic? Or how hundreds of Jedi felt nothing as the newly christened Darth Vader and his droves of Clone Troopers walked to the temple with a very strong intention to harm them?
     
  8. Old_Zen

    Old_Zen Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2005
    "He'd fear you'd follow old Obi Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did"

    Shimi has been with the Lars for atleast half a decade and Owen and Shimi were very close. Shimi must have told so many stories about her beloved son Anakin to the Lars..so much that Owen would be able to build a fair assenment of Anakin and who he is, magnified by his visit to the farm in AOTC. Anakin had ideals in TPM to go off and free the slaves and help everyone, restoring honor to the galaxy and becoming a heroic Jedi Knight. These is in essence from the point of view of a backwater farmer what the Jedi as a whole are trying to do...Since Obi Wan is the only Jedi Owen really knows (for 20 years) He sums up all the Jedi into one: Obi Wan, because he dosen't really know any other Jedi.


    Why can't Luke remember Padme but Leia does?

    Easy. Luke's eyes were closed and Leia's were open. Remember these were the CHOSEN ONE'S kids. This can also work as a meataphore for Luke as being the nai've protected laid back farm boy and Leia as more involed and aware.

    Why does Darth Vader call himself a master?

    Duh. He's a Sith and he's arrogant and he's...ANAKIN! To Obi Wan, Vader is his master now in terms of power. Now I am the master, no more: yes master, sorry master, I try, Master.

    Why does Obi-Wan say that Darth Vader was pupil of his until he turned to evil when Anakin was a Jedi Knight not a padawan?

    Oh cmon. He WAS a pupil of mine BEFORE he turned evil. That means ANYTIME in his life BEFORE he turned evil, he was once his pupil (padawan). Jeez. He was trying to explain to Luke two things in one simple senentance. And he did not use the term Padawan because Luke is not educated in Jedi protocal yet.
     
  9. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 28, 2005
    Nope I don't buy that for a second. I'm into the symbolism in SW but that's bogus. Besides Leia's eyes where open when Bail gave her to his wife not when Leia was with Padme. However, I'll let you have the rest, but you didn't answer why the Jedi can't sense Palpatine.

     
  10. lightsaber_wielder

    lightsaber_wielder Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 24, 2002
     
  11. CAPTAIN_CHOLO

    CAPTAIN_CHOLO Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 13, 2006
     
  12. CAPTAIN_CHOLO

    CAPTAIN_CHOLO Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 13, 2006
    Yoda learned from his mistakes. He knew that things were not okay, and that the dark side has clouded their visions. Besides, when Obi Wan told Yoda that without the clones, it wouldn't have been a victory, Yoda replied back to him that it wasn't a victory and that the shroud of the dark side has fallen ...

    Why do you think he was not killed when the clone troopers attempted on his life back on Kashyyyk?

    Didn't Yoda felt something when all hell broke, just like Obi Wan felt thousands of voices crying out in terror when Alderaan was blown away by the Empire?

    Give them a break, they are not gods!
     
  13. Sinjin_Sith

    Sinjin_Sith Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 8, 2006
    The most questionable thing to me is the training of the twins.
    The PT shows strong evidence Anakin had trouble from the start because of his "old" age and effects of emotional attachments ("much fear I sense in him"), at the time he was first brought in to begin Jedi training.

    So why wasn't Luke or Leia trained from a much earlier age.. Instead, a much later age?
    Why not train at least one from infancy, and keep the other as backup?
     
  14. darth_da

    darth_da Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    May 27, 2005
    Higher chance of the Empire discovering them if they were trained to use the force from a young age.

    Ideally Luke's (or even Leia's) training may have waited for many more years before it started, but then the droids landed on Tatoine, the Lars got killed etc etc so id guess Obi Wan took that as some sort of sign from the force that the time was right to begin Luke's training.

    EDIT: Im going to add to this with something I noticed whilst watching ROTS the other night, which could help validate Leia remembering Padme.

    When Padme dies, Obi Wan is holding Luke very close to her when she says "There is still good in him" (refering to Anakin). Could this belief have been passed on to Luke somehow, so that when he learns that Vader is his father instead of trying to destroy him, he tries to turn him back to the good man he once was.

    Sorry, i know this is a bit off topic but i wasnt sure if it was worthy of its own thread.
     
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I can't find any plot holes either.
     
  16. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    man

    a good response

    i posted this thread last nite and half expected to get back from work today with it locked!

    i will try and address soem of these points with my own views but im really enjoying other peoples explainations

    this is what the saga is all about!!!

    be back soon
     
  17. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2005
    Why does Leia remember Padme but Luke doesn't?

    IN STAR WARS, EVERYTHING IS DONE FOR A REASON. WHEN WE SEE AT THE END OF THE FILM LEIA'S EYES OPEN & LUKE'S CLOSED - THIS IS NOT RANDOM. THIS IS DONE ON PURPOSE.

    DONT BELIEVE ME? I QUOTE FROM THE JUNIOR NOVELISATION OF ROTS BY PATRICIA WREDE:

    "UNLIKE HER BROTHER, THIS BABY'S EYES WERE WIDE, AND SHE STARED IN PADME'S DIRECTION AS IF SHE WANTED TO SEE AND MEMORIZE HER FACE" (PG 178-179).

    Why does Obi-Wan tell Luke that Owen felt Anakin should stay on Tatooine and not get involved when Owen knew Anakin for a grand total of 30 minutes?

    IMO THIS IS BECAUSE OWEN KNOWS THE DANGER OF BEING A JEDI WHILST THE EMPIRE ARE AROUND & ALSO (POSSIBLY) KNOWS WHAT BECAME OF ANAKIN

    BERU:"HE HAS TOO MUCH OF HIS FATHER IN HIM"
    OWEN:"THATS WHAT IM AFRAID OF"

    Why does Obi-Wan say that Darth Vader was pupil of his until he turned to evil when Anakin was a Jedi Knight not a padawan?

    HE WAS A PUPIL OF HIS, IN THE SAME WAY OBI-WAN WAS A PUPIL OF YODA'S.

    IN ROTS, ANAKIN STILL CALLS OBI-WAN MASTER JUST AS OBI-WAN STILL CALLS YODA MASTER EVEN THOUGH HE NO LONGER TRAINS HIM ONE ON ONE.

    Why does Darth Vader call himself a master?

    VADER BELIEVES THAT AFTER 19 YEARS MASTERING THE ART OF THE DARK SIDE, HE IS NOW A SUPERIOR FORCE TECHNICIAN TO OBI-WAN. HE DOES NOT MEAN HE HAS THE RANK JEDI MASTER, HE JUST MEANS HE THINKS HE IS NOW BETTER THAN KENOBI.

    Why can't the Jedi Masters sense a Sith Lord that is five feet away from them?

    "THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE CLOUDS EVERYTHING". THIS CANT BE A PLOT HOLE AS IT DOESNT REALLY CONTRADICT ANYTHING ELSE.

    NOTE THE SHIFT IN THE FORCE IN ROTJ, WHEN VADER CAN SENSE LUKE BUT THE EMPORER CANNOT. THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENED TO THE JEDI IN THE PT IS HAPPENING TO SIDIOUS.

    Why does Qui-Gon get to be a ghost?

    QUI-GON DOESNT GET TO BE A GHOST. HE PARTIALLY LEARNS TO RETAIN HIS IDENTITY UPON DEATH. HIS BODY DOESNT VANISH, SO HE CANNOT REAPPEAR. HIS VOICE CAN JUST BE HEARD BY YODA (AOTC, CW CARTOONS) AND THEN OBI-WAN (INBETWEEN ROTS AND ANH).

    HE HAD STUDIED A TECHNIQUE PASSED DOWN BY A SHAMAN OF THE WHILLS (SEE OFFICIAL SITE DATABANK).

    What does blue milk taste like?

    WHITE MILK

    How does a space slug reproduce?

    IT HAS BOTH MALE & FEMALE GENITALIA :p
     
  18. DarthPoppy

    DarthPoppy Jedi Master star 4

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    May 31, 2005
    "UNLIKE HER BROTHER, THIS BABY'S EYES WERE WIDE, AND SHE STARED IN PADME'S DIRECTION AS IF SHE WANTED TO SEE AND MEMORIZE HER FACE" (PG 178-179).

    Thanks for reminding me why I don't read EU. This is the stupidest thing I have ever read here--a new born consciously tries to do something so as to avoid a plot hole in a movie. Truly pathetic and thank God, Lucas didn't have Carrie Fisher do a voice over of the baby saying I want to remember my mother later. Lame, lame, lame!
     
  19. Old_Zen

    Old_Zen Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Mar 18, 2005
    "Until the time is right."

    Qui Gonn taught them to follow the will of the Force and focus on the living Force. The Force and nature of life takes cares of itself. As soon as the Death Star was completed Luke turned of right age, just like the Jedi found Anakin during the same event that the Sith re-emerged into the galaxy.
     
  20. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    I've been visiting these forums since 2001, and have been registered since 2002, and have not seen any so-called plot hole that has not explained by fans in some semi-cogent manner

    The problem is that different fan explanations for the same thing don't always add up, and this extra assumption shouldn't be necessary. It is true that some plot points require assumption to add up. That's natural for most any story, but having an equation 1+y=2, ergo y must be "1" isn't the same as 1+1=3, ergo there is also a factor y in there somewhere, which is also 1. However, many sci-fi series (Star Wars, Star Trek, Dune, etc) require the "hidden Y factor" as I call it, and it shouldn't. It is unfair to say SW is an exception and the only one that has this problem, just as much as it is unfair to say that it is the only one that doesn't have this problem.

    Oh well, still fun movies.
     
  21. Old_Zen

    Old_Zen Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Mar 18, 2005
    Thats why WE are geeks and have this place. We DO care to devote so many thoughts, energy and time to SW.

    So..this thread is not about general auidence liking SW..We really don't care. This thread is for us geeks to give answers to questions in SW, because its fun and makes our life feel complete. So booyah! Enough with the technical babble...this is a forum not a senate.
     
  22. CAPTAIN_CHOLO

    CAPTAIN_CHOLO Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 13, 2006
    It doesn't matter at what age they are trained ... What matters is how good they are trained ... Anakin had trouble from the start because of his old age and emotional attachments like you said it, but Obi Wan recognized that he was wrong thinking that he could instruct Anakin just as well as Yoda.

    Luke had much like his old man, and was trained at an older age, but in the end, he knew to distinguish between the good side and the bad one ... So, it is not a matter of age ...
     
  23. CAPTAIN_CHOLO

    CAPTAIN_CHOLO Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 13, 2006
    Well, let me tell you that if you don't read at least a 5% of the EU, then you are lost ... Star Wars is about that.

    You go to the movies and watch a Star Wars film, ROTS for example, and listen to things that were explained in novels that are settled between AOTC and ROTS ...

    Star Wars is a hughe project, and cannot be resumed in just six films. If you want to understand or know about other things, then you have to be informed, and what is best to do that than reading a few novels ... Labyrinth of Evil, by James Luceno, and Shadows of the Empire, by Steve Perry.

    [face_peace]
     
  24. CAPTAIN_CHOLO

    CAPTAIN_CHOLO Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 13, 2006
    Nice thoughts ... Specially that one on Obi Wan refering to Darth Vader as his pupil ... =D=
     
  25. spacerocker

    spacerocker Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 29, 2002
    I haven't read the junior novalization, but the text quoted by DarthWolvo23 dosen't mean what you said.
    It doesn't say Leia consciously tries to do anything. It says "AS IF she wanted to see and memorise her face." "As if" meaning as it apears to someone looking at her. Not meaing that Leia purposely looked in the direction of her mother.
     
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