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There are no plot holes in the Saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthWolvo23, Jan 22, 2006.

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  1. Use2bVader

    Use2bVader Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 6, 2006
    [blockquote]
     
  2. Sanctuary_Moon

    Sanctuary_Moon Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 20, 2004
    How about when Lucas makes conflicting statements, or changes his mind? What is "fact" then?
     
  3. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Vader's not there. This was among themselves. It also belittles Vader without his being there.

    But who said that Vader is in charge of the navy?


    And have been for a good long while. It's also what Pablo Hidalgo indicated, before ROTS came out when he said that the memories are accurate given the greater context of the Saga. Leia is the son of a man who had visions in his dreams. Her brother had similar ones. It runs in the family. Past, present and future are open to a Jedi. Even if they aren't trained in the Jedi Arts.

    But anakin and Luke know they're having visions . When did Leia have these visions and how does she arrive at the conclusion they're real memories?

    It was as he was before he turned. His corporeal form before turning evil and being damaged. They can do this as Anakin does not wear his darker Jedi robes and is 100% whole. No scars or bionics. Obi-wan has his robe on again. Obi-wan and Yoda didn't turn.

    But he turned back at the end of ROJ, I saw it, I was under the impression that this was very significant. The AOTC anakin was arrogant etc. , the ROJ anakin is the one who learned life's lessons and brought balance .

    Theories are just that. What Lucas says is fact, regardless of one's personal feelings regarding his statements

    What has Lucas actually said about any of the above?
    When did he explain how leia remembers her mother?

    And his words are open to question since he does tend to contradict himself at times.

    any person who sits down and really thinks about it, without getting all overzealous, can figure it out. What happens is people are either too quick to call plot hole or aren't taking the time out to rationally think. Instead they come up with theories that don't really fit within the context of the films

    And the same can be said of the theories that people come up with to explain the plot holes - they don't really fit within the context of the films, but that doesn't mean they aren't smart .

    Take the Threepio issue. Common sense tells you that he isn't the only one like that.

    Take Leia's memories - as far as I know Lucas hasn't said a word about it, and even when McCallum was asked he had no idea, do you think he isn't smart enough to work it out ? ;)

    I happen to agree with you about 3po, but others don't and they have their reasons, they aren't lacking in common sense or smartness just cos they disagree with you.

    Let's just assume that we're all pretty smart (yeah okay, 'cept for stryphe :p ) and continue from there.

    g

     
  4. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    Obiwan, my question was directed at the plothole crowd, in particular.
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The fact that he's in charge of of the Fleet in TESB and ROTJ. The fact that he's the number two man behind the Emperor.

     
  6. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    Wait a minute...

    Let's just assume that we're all pretty smart (yeah okay, 'cept for stryphe) and continue from there.

    **bans gez**
     
  7. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    The fact that he's in charge of of the Fleet in TESB and ROTJ. The fact that he's the number two man behind the Emperor.

    But you were talking about the ANH period which is what I responded to. But I don't go along with your theory that he is in charge of the navy . In ESB and ROJ he does take charge of the operation , and I imagine he tends to do that wherever he goes, but he's not in charge of the Navy the way Tagge might be . I can't prove you wrong but I don't think your theory can be proven either .

    Luke didn't know he was having a vision of going to Dagobah, while he was on Hoth

    Ben told him to go to dagobah.

    Leia could've had these visions at any point during the 19 years between trilogies. And she assumed that they are memories because she searched her feelings. She knew that they were real. She asked Bail and he told her the truth, without revealing everything. She knows that she's adopted.

    If she asked Bail then he would've told her that her mother died during childbirth so how would leia then conclude that she remembered her mother?

    But he had turned to the Dark Side. Even though he came back, the corporeal form is the one from before he turned. Even Lucas says that this is the case.


    But he turned back at the end of ROJ, I saw it, I was under the impression that this was very significant. The AOTC anakin was arrogant etc. , the ROJ anakin is the one who learned life's lessons and brought balance .
    And what Lucas says is a contradiction of what he previously said: the original ROJ.

    In 1997, he said in the Annotated Screenplay for ROTJ, that he wanted one of the children to remember their mother. He said it was Leia who remembers. In the first three drafts, young Starkiller's mother died after he and his siblings were born. Lucas opted to have Leia be the one to remember.

    But he hasn't said anything to explain how leia remembers padme.
    He didn't know in 1983 when padme would die.

    But not about everything. The only ones that he's really contradicted was centered around how many films there was supposed to be, how much he had planned out and the whole Han Solo thing in ANH SE. Otherwise, he's been consistent.

    He had very little planned out . Luke's father changed, the 'other' changed, he didn't really know when padme would die etc. etc.

    Probably not. But Pablo knew and figured it out. He also informed us.

    That's his theory , and whether it makes sense or not is debatable.

    I didn't say anyone was stupid. I said that if they really look at the facts and think it throught, they can figure it out.

    They can come up with a theory , that doesn't mean it's correct or that we all have to agree with it's believability.


    **bans gez**

    Damn.

    g


     
  8. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Who's Pablo? Pablo Helman? And what does he do? AOTC VSX supervisor?

    What did he inform us of?
     
  9. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2005

    Sure Obi-Wan told told him to go to Dagobah, but Luke was also being guided to Dagobah by forces other than Obi-Wan. It was Luke's destiny to go to Dagobah and that's why he was having dreams of Dagobah.

    "...it's like something out of dream..."--Luke--TESB
    "Still..there's something familiar about this place."--Luke--TESB

    starwars.com Dagobah databank:
    A distant, mist-shrouded swamp planet, Dagobah does not appear in any modern starcharts. It is a forgotten world, and it was the home of the last remaining Jedi Master and Council member from the waning days of the Republic.

    The young Jedi initiate Luke Skywalker journeyed to the bog planet, prompted by a message delivered by the spectral image of his late master, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Though Luke lacked the navigation data to journey to Dagobah, he was able to puzzle its location through the Force.
     
  10. DARTHCLANDESTINE

    DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 17, 2005
    That's beautiful isn't it? :)

    I thinks its also interesting he decides to operate the craft manually on the way there. :cool:
     
  11. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 28, 2005
    Yes.:)
    Very interesting.:cool:

     
  12. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    The young Jedi initiate Luke Skywalker journeyed to the bog planet, prompted by a message delivered by the spectral image of his late master, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Though Luke lacked the navigation data to journey to Dagobah, he was able to puzzle its location through the Force.

    No mention there^ of him having dreamt about it .

    g

     
  13. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2005

    I like how you omitted the dialogue from The Empire Strikes Back where Luke refers to Dagobah as something out of a dream.

     
  14. Boskone_Kenobi

    Boskone_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2002
    No, I have a problem with Ben and everyone claiming he was trained by QGJ in one trilogy and then Ben and Yoda claiming he was trained by someone else in another. When I said this, you mentioned that it wouldn't work to have QGJ mentioned in the OT. I said that it shouldn't be a problem, and then we got sidetracked with a whole other discussion.

    I still to this day to not see why anyone would waste 6 seconds complaining about this.
    YODA TAUGHT HIM IN THE TEMPLE
    QUI GONN TOOK HIM WHEN HE GREW UP

    That always made sense to me and was the first thing that occured to me during TPM. It is so blatently obvious to me that whenever I read any complaints at all about this, I say to myself "What an idiot, why do people deliberately go looking for trouble, and why cant everyone be as smart as me?"

    This is such a complete NONISSUE and should have been obvious to everyone else as well.
     
  15. Boskone_Kenobi

    Boskone_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2002
    When did he explain how leia remembers her mother?

    Which brings me to the 2nd most blatently obvious nonissue::

    SHE WAS A FORCE SENSITIVE BABY for crying out loud. Geez, Gez, it is questions like this that make me honestly question if people wake up in the morning and say: "I think ill find something stupendiously pointless to argue about today."

    Well, at least it was stupendously obvious to me, and I have yet to hear explaination of why even a tenth of the ire on this thread is worth so much as a single damn in the greater scheme of things.
    She was a Force sensitive baby, and that wasnt supposed to be rocket science.

     
  16. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    "When did he explain how leia remembers her mother?

    Which brings me to the 2nd most blatently obvious nonissue::

    SHE WAS A FORCE SENSITIVE BABY for crying out loud. Geez, Gez, it is questions like this that make me honestly question if people wake up in the morning and say: "I think ill find something stupendiously pointless to argue about today."

    Well, at least it was stupendously obvious to me, and I have yet to hear explaination of why even a tenth of the ire on this thread is worth so much as a single damn in the greater scheme of things.
    She was a Force sensitive baby, and that wasnt supposed to be rocket science. "

    Luke was also a force sensitive baby, was also the child of Padme, was born before Leia and thus spent more time with Padme and he also had far more training in the force. So why doesn't he remember anything? Given the large numbers of similarities between Luke and Leia, if one remebers through the force then it is likely that the other would too.
    And the force bit still does not explain why she says that Padme died when Leia was very young, if she knew when Padme died then she would have said "she died when I was born" but that would also lead Leia maybe wondering "How can I remeber my mother when she died when I was born?" If she did remeber her mother it would not be very hard for her to find out when she died as Padme was a very public figure and worked in the same place that Leia worked in. If Bail lied to her then it was still a good chance that she would have found out the truth anyway.

    "I like how you omitted the dialogue from The Empire Strikes Back where Luke refers to Dagobah as something out of a dream.
    "

    That was when he was talking to R2 about what he was doing there, like it was something out of a dream or he was going nuts.
    So that probably refers to his vision of Obi-Wan telling him to go to Dagobah. He does say that there was something familiar about the place but what that refers to is anyones guess.
    But then he was sensing Yoda and knew that he was being watched.

    "Trial and error. It could've been finished in five years and they waited until ANH to use it. There could've been problems getting the superlaser to work. There could've been problems getting the massive hyperdrive to work. There's a lot of reasons for such as long delay. And in ROTJ, it wasn't all the way complete. In fact, Moff Jerjerrod says that he doesn't have enough resources to get it done on time. You don't think that this didn't happen before? "

    First off the DS was not yet operational at the start of ANH, they had still to run tests and other things, so I doubt that it had been ready for several years and not used it.
    Second the second DS, while not finished, was operational.
    Third, the crawl for RotJ states that the empire has secretly BEGUN building a new DS so they probably started sometime between ESB and RotJ. That means they have only been building it for maybe a few months. So the difference between one and two is 20 years compared with maybe six months and the second one was far bigger. So we are talking about DS2 getting built 20-30 times faster than DS1. That is rather a lot.

    " still to this day to not see why anyone would waste 6 seconds complaining about this.
    YODA TAUGHT HIM IN THE TEMPLE
    QUI GONN TOOK HIM WHEN HE GREW UP

    That always made sense to me and was the first thing that occured to me during TPM. It is so blatently obvious to me that whenever I read any complaints at all about this, I say to myself "What an idiot, why do people deliberately go looking for trouble, and why cant everyone be as smart as me?"

    This is such a complete NONISSUE and should have been obvious to everyone else as well. "

    Exactly how did you figure this in TPM, because we did not see Yoda do any traing with anyone until AotC. Second why some talk about this is that Obi-Wan says "THE Jedi master, who taught me" when refering to Yoda. Whcih indicates that Yoda is the only one who trained him. If he had been taught by many masters then it would have been more correct to sa
     
  17. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    I like how you omitted the dialogue from The Empire Strikes Back where Luke refers to Dagobah as something out of a dream.

    But that doesn't mean he had dreams about dagobah. he may have but it's not in the film. Back when that line was written it may have referred to something else, some fans speculated that Luke was born on dagobah for instance. And Dagobah is a strange place, so describing it as like something out of a dream is quite apt.

    SHE WAS A FORCE SENSITIVE BABY for crying out loud. Geez, Gez, it is questions like this that make me honestly question if people wake up in the morning and say: "I think ill find something stupendiously pointless to argue about today."

    It's been argued about for over 2 years.
    I remember in the ROTS thread when the info leaked that padme would die in childbirth a lot of fans said it was ridiculous because leia couldn't then remember her .
    As for her being Force sensitive - well Nordom said prettyy much what I'd say.

    Well, at least it was stupendously obvious to me, and I have yet to hear explaination of why even a tenth of the ire on this thread is worth so much as a single damn in the greater scheme of things

    well the topic of this thread isn't "The Greater Scheme of things" .

    g


     
  18. DARTHIRONCLAD

    DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2005
    No you have nothing to stand on here but your own opinion. Luke is clearly referring to a familiarity he has to Dagobah because he even says so. He is experiencing deja vu, that much is true. You cannot dispute this, but I'm sure you will even though I know you know what you're saying is bogus and you're just saying it only for spite. Now that the saga is complete, we do know that dreams in the story of Star Wars are windows to the future, past, and other places. If fans speculated that Luke was born on Dagobah, then that was their mistake for forming opinions before the saga was complete. The Empire Strikes Back was clearly labeled as the fifth episode and Lucas stated in 1980 that episodes 1, 2, and 3 were going to be made after 6 was finished. The disgruntal fans are the problem, not Lucas. OT fans formed opinions about the OT before the PT was made. This is why people are confused now. Fans like you just come here in an attempt to prove that you're right but you're wrong. Lucas did drop dialogue in the OT that could not be fully appreciated until the PT was made. See the difference between me and the fans like you is that I had only one opinion about the OT after it was complete in 1983. Only one. I reasoned even back in the 80s that Star Wars was the story of the father who fell from grace and son who saved his soul. When I would tell other fans this they would laugh or scoff and tell me I was wrong, but that is what the story is and it is even that way to this day. I see the story a little differently these days. Now I see that the father was actually guided to the dark side and the son was guided to bring him back, but the story still is the father who fell from grace and the son who brings him back.

    Luke talking about Dagobah as something out of dream and his familiarity with the planet is foreshadowing for episodes 1, 2, and 3 since the episodes where done out of order.

    If you want to think Lucas didn't have any idea what he was doing or where his characters were going, then fine. Believe what you want if it helps you, but I'm not going down this road with yet another fan that thinks his opinion can be the only real truth, when it's so obvious Luke's dialogue is foreshadowing to the dreams Anakin will have in 1, 2, and 3.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Pablo Hidalgo, in charge of Hyperspace and worked on the film. He spoke with Lucas and imparted his stuff in chats. He told us that Leia's memories are true, given the greater context of the Saga. The greater context is that she had a vision of the past.

    And listen to DARTHIRONCLAD you do. Luke was unconscious, talking about Dagobah. He then says that it's like something out of a dream. Skywalkers have dreams of the future, you cannot deny that no matter how hard you try. Luke doesn't have a memory for whatever reason. They are similar, but they are also different. There is no reason for Luke to have a vision like she does. She knows it's her real mother. She knows that she died when she was young, but does not know when. This vision is not specific to when Padme died and when they were born. This could be at any time in Padme's life. And as far as she needed to know, her mother died when she was young.
     
  20. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    And listen to DARTHIRONCLAD you do. Luke was unconscious, talking about Dagobah. He then says that it's like something out of a dream.

    Luke says there is something familiar about this place and likens it to a dream. Ultimately, we don't know exactly what this was in reference to. That doesn't mean he had seen it in a vision or a dream (although it could). It's comparitive speak. I assumed it was his being in tune with the will of the Force, which had been pulling him to Dagobah. But that's just guess work on my part. While you and Ironclad may be right, any answer we can come up at this point is merely guess work.

    I'm assuming GL never commented on it?
     
  21. Brobu

    Brobu Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 22, 2002
    Chances are that at the time of the making of RotJ, Luke was supposed to have been born in secret on Dagobah. That obviously changed, so now we're left with a fairly benign but nonetheless puzzling line.

    Of course, this could be justified in a plethora of different ways if one thinks creatively and uses outside sources for justification.
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Not necessary. They have biological similarities. That doesn't mean that they have the same feelings in the Force. Luke has no memory of his mother and a strong bond to his father. He's more concerned with him, long before finding out the truth. Leia has memories of her mother. She has no connection or memories of her father.

    Who cares what Leia says? Honestly, it doesn't matter what she says. All that does is that she remembers her mother and that she died when she was young. Very young and when she was born, have the same connotation. Different meanings, but they get the point across. Only the grammer police will have a fit.


    Or maybe he did have a vision. It is possible given who he is and what his father is capable. Much less what other Force sensitives are capable of.


    Why not? We don't use nuclear bombs. The time was not right to use the Death Star, for all we know. It would look pretty bad if someone spots it destroying something.

    At Palpatine's behest.

    The DS II was four years in the making, at the time of ROTJ.

    Yoda does teach him. That's the point. He taught him the Force. That's what Yoda does with the Younglings. Qui-gon Jinn does not teach the Force to Obi-wan. He teaches him how to be a Jedi. He does not teach him the w
     
  23. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    "Not necessary. They have biological similarities. That doesn't mean that they have the same feelings in the Force. Luke has no memory of his mother and a strong bond to his father. He's more concerned with him, long before finding out the truth. Leia has memories of her mother. She has no connection or memories of her father. "

    Well unlike Luke she had a mother and a father, she called Bail father and it does not seem that she thought very much of either of her real parents. Luke seemed to have been raised knowing that Owen and Beru were not his parents and he never called them mother or father.
    Luke and Leia are very similar, they are twins, are both strong in the force etc. and yet one is able to get lots of memories of Padme while Luke gets nothing. Also Luke does not have any memories of his mother or father, despite the connection you talk about. He does have an interest in knowing about his father, quite normal for an orphan. Luke must also have thought about his mother as well, why else did he ask Leia?

    "Who cares what Leia says? Honestly, it doesn't matter what she says. All that does is that she remembers her mother and that she died when she was young. Very young and when she was born, have the same connotation. Different meanings, but they get the point across. Only the grammer police will have a fit. "

    So what the characters say are not important then why not ignore everything she says and dissmis it all as she is talking nonsense.
    Also very young and at birth are quite different, ex. Obi-Wan says that Luke and Leia were hidden from their father when they were born.
    If he instead said that they were hidden when they were very young it would be different. The first clearly suggest that Vader never saw them, the other makes it possible that Vader did spent some time with them before they were hidden.

    "Why not? We don't use nuclear bombs. The time was not right to use the Death Star, for all we know. It would look pretty bad if someone spots it destroying something. "

    In ANH there was a sense of urgency from the imperials "..until this battlestation is fully operational, we are vulnerable.." There is nothing in the movie that suggest that the DS had been ready for some time and Palpatine just waited. He allowed the senate to have some power because he could not rule through force and fear without the DS.
    So the moment it is ready he dissolves the senate and plans to use the DS on anyone that dares to protest. Why would Palpatine have a ready DS and not use it? If you want to claim that the DS had been ready for several years and Palpatine had just not bothered to use then you need to prove it.


    "The DS II was four years in the making, at the time of ROTJ. "

    Where is this stated in the film?

    Also Palpatine was going to the DS2 to oversee the final stages so that sounds like it would not be long before it was done. How much was left of the DS2, a fair amount of the strucutre was missing, perhaps 1/3 was left.
    How long would it take to complete that? Unknown but I doubt that Palpatine was prepared to spend 1-2 years just sitting on the DS2 watching it getting built. More it sounds like only weeks or perhaps 1-2 months was left until it was ready.

    The Jedi Order is one of the oldest insitutions around, as Obi-wan says. The Republic was never put together the way it is, until the Russan Reformation, a thousand years before Anakin's birth. Picture it like the US when it was divided up in two sections, around the time of the Civil War. A country once united, torn in two and then put together again.

    The Old Republic=The Galactic Republic."

    But Obi-Wan says that "The Old Republic" has been around for 1000 generations which, according to you means the Galactic Republic. Later Tarkin says that with the senate dissolved The Old Republic is finally gone. They both use the same phrase "The Old Republic" so which Republic are they talking about?
    Also the bits about the Sith war, the russan reformation and what not are not in the films. All we have is different ages used to describe wha
     
  24. Use2bVader

    Use2bVader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2006
    [blockquote]
    [/blockquote]
    The adopted thing is a red herring. No one is saying Leia wanst adopted, or that she didn't know she was adopted. The Syntax of what she says is plain. If you try to remember things from the past how would you describe what goes on in your head? Images and Feelings NOT dreams and visions. These are all distinctive things and (at least to me) not things that are interchangeable. If she'd said dreams that would have made it ok. Same with visions. Yes she's force sensitive no argument with that. It is the wording used (as well as what I said previously) that create the "hole".



    [blockquote]
    [/blockquote]
    This was released in the run up to Episode 1 where George was already aware that he was going to keep evolving the story. He was wise to begin muddying the waters, in addition to getting you to buy the screenplay again....$$$$$$$$

    .


    [blockquote]
    [/blockquote]
    Who is Pablo and why do we care what he's figured out to tell us?


    [blockquote]
    [/blockquote]
    No. In ANH they say "Final checks are complete we are fully operational"


    [blockquote]
    Really, you think theyd start construction on a space station whose sole purpose in the universe is to house a superlaser big enough to destroy a planet, and ferry it around the universe, without knowing the 2 primary requirements were possible? Can you name the other complications since I just destroyed your primary arguments. without going into Lucas's commentary on ROTS because he sure isn't serious when he talks about labor disputes and supply problems.


    [blockquote]
    [/blockquote]
    Jerjerrod was referring to the superlaser. It was clear to me as "it should be to anyone with common sense" that the exterior was not meant to be completed, it was part of the plan to lure the rebels into a false sense of security



    [blockquote]
     
  25. Use2bVader

    Use2bVader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2006

    [blockquote]
    AH, I see, Clandestine meetings, "Greater vision" espoused. Therefore Nothing he says can be disputed because "George told him". How's this for a possibility:

    George: Pablo, I'm concerned.
    Pablo : What about my master?
    George: I may start losing fans, and therefore Hyperspace memberships if the fans figure it out that I'm just making Stuff(substituted for a 4 letter word) up.
    Pablo : I see that could be bad. How can I help.
    George: I want you to go in the chat rooms and make Stuff up to justify my stuffing up and say it came from me so the fans stay somewhat content....
    Pablo : I can see that working, I'll get right on that. Can I look at your notebook of cool ideas and stuff you have planned first?
    George: What notebook? I just told you I'm making stuff up.
    Pablo : Oh right.

    No blasphemy intended... merely poking fun.
     
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