"They need you, more than you know"

That is the best post I've read on this thread so far! Really well thought-out.

I think there is more to this quote, at least from Sidious' point of view, because he can foresee future events, but not with exact precision ("Always in motion, the future is"). So, this actually combines several of the options I started this thread with.

 

How could he have known?He just thinks that Palpatine is being nice to him and that he really does have a chance to get in the council.Of course Palpatine is assuming(correctly)that they wouldn't let him in and so does Anakin at first.

"The council elects it's own members,they will never accept us."

Then Palpatine says "I think they will.They need you more than you know." which gives Anakin the confidence to go there and trust that he will get in the council.Palatine is his close friend,they trust each other.Anakin really has no real reason to doubt him at this point...

 

Yeah, this is a point well-taken, not even Yoda or Mace sense that Palpatine is as evil as he is until FAR too late. Also, we know that Palpatine has taken Anakin under his wing, which also would lead to the ease with which Anakin accepts his "complement".

You say, however, that Palpatine is assuming that the Jedi wouldn't let this pass. The do, though, with the slight addition of Anakin spying on Palpatine. So, since Palpatine knows that the Jedi won't let him on the council, yet they did, does that mean Palps knows about the spying thing this way? Or is this through reading Anakin's mind or foreseeing future events?

 

It seems like palps knew that the council would not accept him. He would be filled with rage and betraylal and eventually the dark side

 

Yes that's exactly what I meant.Anakin cares about getting the Master rank and he thinks that by getting on the council he will of course get it.So when they just let him in but don't give him the rank he is naturally very upset.I think Palpatine knew somehow(I don't know how exactly,but he IS a master manipulator after all )that the council wouldn't accept Anakin officially and that it would cause much mistrust between Ani and the council and finally the jedi as well.Then they give him the spying job and basically make it even easier for Palpatine to create more mistrust.I think they really shouldn't have done that,it was a very bad decision from them.But I guess they just underestimated just how close Palpatine and Anakin really were and how loyal Anakin was.And they had absolutely no idea that Palpatine was the sith until it was too late,doubts maybe but nothing solid.

 

Thanks Yoshi!

Regarding my comment re doofus Anakin taking everything Palpatine says at face value (Annina's comment):

The Jedi council may not know Palpatine is Sidious, but they know the Dark side surrounds the Chancellor. They don't trust Palpatine and this isn't a recent thing. It's as if they suspect but have no proof. They see the noose tightening more and more and Anakin is completely oblivious to this - or rather in denial to this - and why? Because Palpatine boosts his ego constantly.

Anakin is completely mindless when it comes to Palpatine. He has a purely democratically devoted wife, the Jedi suspect Palpatine and don't like the changes going on in the Senate that gives the Chancellor more and more power, I'm sure Padme doesn't like this either, and Anakin completely tosses off their opinions and POV because Palpatine tells him whenever he sees him what a undervalued person he is who deserves so much more.

WTF??!?!?

IMO, this shows a COMPLETE lack of any kind of cleverness or introspection on Anakin's part. His loyalty is completely blind. This is what I mean by egotistical. Does Anakin never stop to consider their POV? His response? "The Chancellor is a good man." And on what does he base his opinion? Because the Chancellor has been nice to HIM.

No wonder Padme and Obi-Wan cannot reach Anakin with logic. He's too caught up in himself and his needs.

 

Yes that's exactly what I meant.Anakin cares about getting the Master rank and he thinks that by getting on the council he will of course get it.So when they just let him in but don't give him the rank he is naturally very upset.I think Palpatine knew somehow(I don't know how exactly,but he IS a master manipulator after all )that the council wouldn't accept Anakin officially and that it would cause much mistrust between Ani and the council and finally the jedi as well.

Yeah I agree. I think I posted that somewhere on here... anyway, yeah, he was playing puppetmaster with everyone.

He boosted Anakin's ego at every opportunity. When he could feel the conflict within Anakin after revealing himself as the sith lord, the first thing he does is tell Anakin "As long as i've known you, you've always been wise beyond your years and wanted a life of conscious(paraphrased)". It probably saved his life. I don't think Sids really knew the answer when he asked "are you going to kill me". Just a calculated risk

 

Jovieve, you are my new hero. I completely agree with you. You really hit the nail on the head.

 

Excellent point, Jovieve!!

The first time that Vader/Anakin really begins to open up that Palpatine has been pulling him around like a lapdog is 24 years later, when he wants to replace him with his son. But for 24 years it's gonna' be, "At least Emperor Palpatine thinks I'm special".

 

"They need you, more than you know"


That line, IMO shows just how much of a "Master Manipulator" Sidious was. Before he utters that line, he tells the General that " Dooku's death was a neccesary loss," and that "Soon I will have a new Apprentice, one far younger and more powerful." His plan to seduce Anakin was years in the making, why else would he befriend him as a child. What about the line in TPM: "We will watch your career with great interest."

Whether he had the ability to see the future through the Force or not is irrelevant...

Because: Over the years, he was able to set up Anakin, the council and the entire galaxy for that matter. In the opera scene, he told him to remeber one of his first lessons, one that Palpatine tought him...the one about "The fear of losing power." Anakin tried to counter, but the Chancellor manipulated his POV. He knew Anakin's tendencies like the back of his hand. He played to his emotions knowing where Anakin's faults would lead him... kneeling, willing to anything to save his wife. He knew that Anakin's dissappointment with how the council treated him would further his resentment, making him bitter and angry...



...and we all know what anger leads to.






He even mentioned to Padme "I feel lost"



Didn't Yoda say to Luke that: "Once you start DOWN the path to the Darkside, forever will it dominate your destiny."
Yoda was speaking from experience there.



Sidious wanted Anakin all along, and he set in motion the series of unfortunate events that led him to draw only one conclusion...to join the Darkside...

The trajedy of it all, was that his original intention was to save someone else. The irony of it all, was his intent was fueled by fear of loss and greed... he became jealous just like Yoda said. There is nothing noble in being possessive, he was made to suffer because of his own doing.



Vader later would even impart that lesson to Luke... "You don't know the POWER of the Darkside."

 

I think that the line has to do with the fact that Palpatine can use the force, and with the force he can see things and images of the future, he uses this power to plan and scheme. he tells this to Anakin because it is like a sick game to him, he knows what he has planned for the Jedi.and that they will be wiped out soon, and that Anakin will be his new Apprentice . so he tells Anakin that they need him , more than he knows, because for once ,that is the truth. Anakin is easily manipulated and influenced by Palpatine. he just makes Anakin think that although Palpatine misstrusts the Jedi and vice versa, and that he still wants Anakin to save them, so to speak.