Lit Timothy Zahn give's response to Mara issue I emailed him with

I think Mara got the job because of all her charms and abilities, and because she was exploitable. This is how everyone gets a job (if not through nepotism)!

I've never read anything to suggest Mara was ever used/abused by Palpatine. Her sex appeal was probably a factor in determining which missions she was suited to, however. Palpatine wouldn't have much use for Vader as a honey pot.

But why shouldn't Palpatine hire females as his super-spy fascist enforcers? It seems a bizarrely patriarchal attitude to take. Are you suggesting that girls can't be just as good at fascism, espionage and assassination as boys?

 

Why so insulting and confrontational?
Why am I wrong to assume that sex isn't an issue here? You specifically brought it up.
How you you conclude that something you brought up, that a number of people want to discuss with you, is a taboo?

 

Yes! I think you're reading a sneering tone that I'm not writing.

I read your responses but I was still left with more questions than answers. Please try to help me understand what your point is.

 

I think I understand, and I think we've been talking at cross purposes.

The concept of a Mata Hari style agent is older than ...Mata Hari. It's commonplace in espionage and consequently spy fiction. Honey pot/honey trap is not my term; I got it from La Carré and I expect he got it from first (or very close second) hand experience in the field.

Assigning a charismatic attractive agent as a honey trap isn't a patriarchal act as such. A male agent can be used this way (James Bond being an obvious literary example, La Carré's work has a good number of gay/bisexual honey traps too, maybe some straight ones but I can't remember any). It's a matter of necessity to use an agent that stands a chance at compromising the target for whatever purpose (information, theft, planting evidence, blackmail, access to a place or person, etc). You just wouldn't send a Vader-type henchman to do something covert, subtle and discrete.

Mara's physical attractiveness was obviously of less importance than her (apparently unique) force abilities though. I don't think the literature suggests that Palpatine had his own version of Gaddafi's Amazonian Guard - I'm not that well read in the EU compared to some so I could be wrong on that point - but even if he had such a thing, I don't think Mara was ever meant to be that kind of agent.

 

This makes no sense. Why is it a problem? It happens in the real world. Why shouldn't it happen in Star Wars?

 

I don't think that's why she was chosen. But it certainly didn't seem to hurt her chances, either.

 

Well the hands has different attributes

>Black Hole= Decrypt paranoid Spymaster.
>Droga= Not only a hand but a fist
>Kogo= Same deal as Mira, attractive young adult and useful saboteur but also an explosive powerhouse with a hateboner for the Alliance
> Lyn= Practically a living treasure trove of Dark Side knowledge
.>Steele= Empires stool pigeon and the greatest Tie Fighter pilot alive

 

She was chosen as a child, so it likely wouldn't factor in at all. Unless he had some extraordinarily creepy visions of the future.

 

But there are no other Hands because Zahn said so, and your a liar if you say otherwise.
Put it this way you are never going to see another Hand written or mentioned beside Mara in one of his books, but don't worry despite the special connection she only kills bad guys who deserve it.

 

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks that's an insult to a readers intelligence

 

Stop acting Like Zhan has control over editorial and cannon plz. It's irksome. You dislike what he says, I think it's flawed as well. Cool, but fixating over it and thinking it matters at all when he's contradicting a **** ton of other stuff and acting like he's Chee or something is getting on my nerves. He has no effect on anything outside the books he writes.

 

Yes, but his fixations have been bringing down the quality of his own books quite a lot.

 

I wouldn't say fixated but overly possessive and uncooperative

 

If Zahn didn't want his readers speculating in this direction, he shouldn't have given Palpatine (a known sadist who uses and abuses people constantly) a teenage girl as trainee who is by the way oh so "special" and later goes around trying to kill people because she loved Palpatine so much.

That's not pervy speculation as much as obvious speculation.

 

I disagree that that's just the obvious and inevitable conclusion to draw. Consider who Palpatine is as a character; he's the popular culture equivalent of Satan. Sure, he's evil and nasty, but he's also manipulative and cunning. It's almost certain that he takes far more pleasure in bending people to his will than he would in sexually abusing them. And even if he was into the whole sexual abuse thing, he's the Emperor; he undoubtedly has plenty of sources for that. But he has precious few sources for agents that are unconditionally loyal to him personally. The Hands are meant to be a literal extension of the Emperor's will, his personal enforcers. If he wants a sex slave, he can get a sex slave. That's not the purpose of the Hands.

Sure, it's possible that Palpatine raped Mara. But it's just as possible that his only intention with her is to create an unquestionably loyal servant. Generally speaking, rape doesn't inspire loyalty. Granted, the Thrawn Trilogy does quite heavily suggest that Palpatine may have manipulated Mara's mind, compelling her to kill Luke Skywalker against her own will. I'm sure he uses a certain amount of mental manipulation on all of his personal servants. So sure, he could have been using her all the while controlling her mind, perhaps forcing her to forget it entirely (she certainly never thinks anything along those lines), but that's just one conclusion to draw. It's just as likely that her only purpose was to be a loyal servant responsible for taking out other not-so-loyal servants.

 

Who is even talking about rape here? If Mara pleases her master willingly, it is sexual abuse of a minor and not rape, obviously. The way she was raised (he made himself her personal father/god figure), it wouldn't even surprise me if she enjoyed it and thought it elevated her above others. That kind of thing happens in real life all the time.

And sorry, but it is kinda obvious. Even when I was a twelve year old reading the Thrawn trilogy I suspected he used her for more than assassin jobs. Maybe he didn't do the dirty, but it's certainly not implausible, quite the opposite actually. It's definitely not my twelve year old selfs fault that the author wrote it in this way.

 

Oh for god's sake. Do we really think that TIM ZAHN would imply something like that? Are we talking about the same Tim Zahn here?

If he'd wanted to imply that Mara and Palpatine were "together" (ugh), he would've done so explicitly. And not have made her a CHILD when she was kidnapped by him.

 

Thrawn himself was the one who called Mara stupid for believing that she was the only Hand. Sure, Zahn never directly explored the idea, but he opened up the whole can of worms and did so in such a way that more or less state there WERE other Hands.

 

I was reading I, Jedi this morning and came across something I found amusing in light of this discussion, so I'll just leave it here. I remind you that Stackpole and Zahn were buddies, Stackpole often asked Zahn for advice and ideas, especially when it came to Mara. Stackpole always deferred to Zahn with Mara, he basically was trying to write Zahn's version of her instead of his own.

lol

 

You misread my post.
What I was saying: He should've thought about the very unfortunate implications before he wrote his stories because they are quite obvious.

It's not like Palpatine is such a swell guy. He is an all around monster in the movies and has no morals or code of conduct. He is no Doctor Doom or Magneto. He plays in a completely different league of villains. You can't easily make the argument that something is "beneath him".