***Traitor discussion thread*** (warning!!! major spoilers)

Okay, let?s try this again.

Overall, I think I liked Traitor. I wasn?t sure, as I was reading, that I agreed with everything said in it, but it was a book that really made me think about everything.

First off, the obviously major topic of discussion ? Vergere?s assertion that there is no Dark Side. I have to admit, I?ve been of two minds on this. On the one hand, a lot of what she said about inner darkness made a great deal of sense. OTOH, though? it feels almost as though it goes against the canon of the movies, to say that there is no Dark Side. I?m not saying this from the point of view of blindly clinging to "canon", though. Rather, I?m worried because so many times I?ve read novels that just didn?t seem to work out, and sometimes it was because of an idea or characterization that seemed to be out of wack with the rest of the SW universe.

Thinking back, though Vergere did say that there was no Dark Side, I?m not sure that is an entirely accurate statement, based on everything else said. Rather, I?m wondering whether it?s a case of the DS not being quite the same thing as the current generation has come to believe. At times, we?ve been given the impression that they almost view it as a sort of boogie-man ? some evil entity out to get them if they let their guard down, and something to blame if they loose control. Not every Jedi seems to think this, and of course the degree varies from book to book, but some of the concept has been there. For example, look at Jacen?s reaction in this book ? the "dark side" is strong in this one place, therefore he thinks that he can?t resist its control. What Vergere says is that the darkness is inside the person, rather than being something external. This doesn?t mean the darkness doesn?t exist; doing something out of anger and hatred is still probably not good. Come to think of it, didn?t Anakin Solo once say something that would mesh with this point of view? That the power is there, neither good nor evil, but that it depended on how the individual chose to use it? Maybe this is what was meant when Jaina said that Anakin had been on the verge for finding something the Jedi had lost long ago ? perhaps it was this knowledge. If the Jedi once thought this way, but something happened to either change their minds? or make them decide that it was safer to teach things from a different point of view? maybe the rise of the Sith? I don?t know a lot about the history, not having read the comics, but if a bunch of Jedi chose to follow a dark path, leading to all sorts of badness in the universe, maybe the Jedi of that time decided that it was simply too dangerous for them to risk that sort of power, and from that came the current day teachings. And would they be wrong? Maybe it was, in a very much demonstrated way, too dangerous. Some Jedi may have been able to handle the power and use it responsibly, but there would be no guarrentees except through the demonstration, which carried the risk that they might not have been able to handle it. And it probably wasn?t reasonable for some Jedi to follow one set of teachings (a fuller use of the power) while others had to be restricted in what they could do. As a result, maybe they created a set of teachings that guide the Jedi to ? I don?t know, to use their power responsibly, and safely.

OTOH, I have to admit that the ?boogy-man? Dark Side theory did bridge some gaps in my understanding of how the whole thing worked. I?ve never understood how a person got "stuck" on the DS ? I can understand acting out of anger, striking out, but why did a person stay evil once they calmed down? Why wouldn?t they, if they were a good person before, not go back to being a good person afterwards? Did they never calm down? Was it some psychological change? The theory that there was something about the Dark Side that could exert a hold on them explained this. <shrug>

Next, there?s the question of how the rest of the Jedi will react to this new (or old) theory. My initial guess is that they?ll view it with a certain amount of trepidation, for one of two

 

[face_shocked] Wow...Alison...

Here is how i decifiered the Dark side problem. You move over to the Dark side because of what they choose. For example, if you let your emotions to choose how you detirmine something, you choose to let your emotions choose. And in saying that, there is no clear cut line between the Dark side and the light side...its all up to one's own decision on where the light side and the Dark side is. Its all up to choice...

 

That makes sense, that's its a matter of personal decision. I think maybe that's some of what Vergere was trying to say: that it's up to the person to decide whether they want to use their abilities for doing good, or doing evil. One can choose to stay in control, or let themselves get out of control, with their emotions (good or bad) ruling over rational thought. Or rather... maybe it's a question of which prevails - is the rational thought in charge, with the emotions lending strength to the person, or do the emotions take over? Maybe this is where the danger lies for a Jedi - when they're no longer able to make that decision for themselves, but rather find their emotions taking over. In which case, it's rather like a regular person loosing control of themselves, only with greater consequences.

Alison

 

Good one, Alison.

I think it's simple, letting your emotions have control is easy. Easier than controling them, and certainly easier than guiding them with purpose. So it comes down to the fact that the "Dark Side" is easier to use and gives greater power, but with a distinct lack of control. And as time goes on it becomes harder to go back to controling the emotions that give the DS it's power.

 

I cant even explain how glad I am that we can all grasp this. I have seen the most ridiculous statements made about how this book ruins everything.
I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!
I wont repost all my stuff from the lit forum, but heres some of it -- with Miccu & Stover also!!!

------Parallels have been drawn between Vergere & Yoda (last teacher of the old ways, etc). I have begun to notice similarities between her & Sidious. Dont get me wrong- I dig Vergere. but the similarities are strange. She approaches the one "most powerful" Jedi, and teaches him new skills and a new point of view on the force, unleashing powers the other jedi dont even know about. I dont know for sure, but it seems Jacen could destroy them all. Not that he WOULD!!!! but I think he COULD.
The thing that brought this to mind was a post refering to "Their side" which I remember from the book. Thinkin back to it now, it just seems....odd.
any thoughts?


---------Miccus post----

That is a scary referance to Vergere as Sidious. Vergere trys to mold Jacen to the perfect apprentice, Teaching him the ways to get rid of the Vong though i fully believe that she could do that herself. Sidious does that too...and it makes you think. could Vergere become the next leader of the Jedi, replacing Luke? Its all uncertain...

---------MWSTOVER-----------
Interesting. Good point.


<<<<<<<<(I hope you dont mind me reposting your stuff Miccu. I thought that was pretty cool)>>>>>>>>>>>

one more thing----

----------I find it interesting how the NJO era of Jedi have to "find themselves". They have to deal with all the things in their life that would distract them. Things like emotional attachment that would cause them to use the force for evil, revenge, self gratification, or anything else "negative".
In the prequel era, they just took kids as young as possible to shield them from the real life experience that - in this case, made Jacen... "Jacen".

Obi-Wan was trained from a young age and is, in many ways, the perfect Jedi. He seems to do everything he's supposed to for all the right reasons.
(I'm not playing favorites, just comapring backgrounds)
Anakin Skywalker was taken at a young age, but he was still "too old". He had developed emotions he could not control - he had a chance to form a bond with his mother among other things. he turned to the Sith.
Jacen Solo was trained from a young age, but was also allowed to develop his whole range of emotions. He had enemies, he had friends, he had family. Some of these things may have contributed to his indecision before, but it would be hard to say that any of these things contributed to his current state. I think Vergere was basically saying - to realize your full potential, you have to leave that other stuff behind.
Kinda what they were going for in the Old Republic era. -Right?

So which way is better?

 

yeah- they ignored me on the literature boards too.

 

I dont mind reposting my stuff...i take that as an honor

Sorry i didnt get to this sooner. You are right in your assumptions. Training Anaking at an older age left him suspectable to developing emotions, like trust, impacientence, hatred, love and joy. That is the main disagreement that Mace had with training Anakin-he had developed emotions that could control his training. Obi-Wann and all the other jedi had the training they had before they had emotions, they learned to control them.

I agree fully to what you had said, and we didnt ignore you, you were just lost in the posts before i could get to it

 

Do you think it possible for an adult to control his/her emotions. I believe it is not as impossible as it may seem. I do it all the time; if I didn't there would be a lot o' people wishin' they woulda' had a little bit o' pacients(sp?).

 

Whoa Josh, you're on to something there. It's interesting the way you see a parallel between Sidious and Vergere. I also think it's interesting the way you've compared Jacen's background to Obi-Wan, and others, that gives me something to think about.


*SB*

 

yes controlling emotions is possible, but I think the old school Jedi think that the more you have, the harder they are to control, and the more likely that you will use your powers to satisy your wants- which are based on your emotions. and that's bad m'kaay? so they like to take little kids and raise them in emotionally sheltered environments. seems logical, but kinda creepy dont ya think?

cool SB. It just seems that there are a lot of different views on "how to build a good jedi".
Luke took the long road. the LOOOOOOOOONG and windy road, and now- he's like.... the lightest of the light. y'know? THE good jedi master to all others.
Jacen has been studying the force all his life and he's now about the age Luke was when he blew up the DS. Luke had been studying the force for about 36 hrs at that point, and wasnt he suddenly promoted to commander?- and he was a pretty big cheese by the time they got to Hoth.
headline:"farmboy makes good-galaxy in rookies hands"
Now Jacen is NO rookie. After he gets back from Vong captivity, with all the knowledge from his new force connection, Vergere, the old republic, the Vong themselves---he's gonna be one bad mutha. I think he just might run the show.
It could feel weird for Jacen going back and trying to be all- "yes, uncy Luke. whatever you say Master Skywalker. you know the way."
I'm really interested to see how that all plays out. Vergere saved Mara and she knew little Ani. with those 2 things alone - I think she'll have a lot of pull.

 

well, i was thinking about the whole "dark side not existing" thing, and i can agree with it for books, but something still seems weird when i think about the movies, and the dark side... but then i was thinking, the movies take place before anakin/vader brings balance to the force... so what if.. what if what anakin does (destroy sith, come back from dark side, etc) brings balance to the force, and the force is whole again, and then the dark side can only exist in a person, its not a powerful split in the force? i dont know, does anyone get what im saying?

 

So what you're sayin' is that when Vader killed the Emperor and came back to the light side the Dark and the Light became one?

 

Ah, here's where it gets into philosophy/theology. With questions like; Does evil exist separate from the actions of an individual or group, (i.e. the Devil or Dark Side) or is it only an extension of man's free will?

 

yeah, before ROTJ, there were two distinctive halves of the force because of a force disturbance, anakin was a convergence in the force, both light and dark, and because of his actions, the force became whole again... and now that its whole, the only darkness comes from darkness inside of you... get it?

 

I do, I get what you're saying! That's the only 'chosen one' philosophy that's made sense to me so far. Ah geez, now you've got me all excited before bed, I won't be able to sleep!


*SB*

 

Hmmmm. I may be misunderstanding you, but I like that idea. It does kinda make sense. Maybe the sith, with their very existence, took the force "out of balance". They threw the whole thing outa whack & the force itself had to impregnate some poor slave woman, so she could give birth to "the chosen one" who would fix it all.

[face_shocked]

does that make any sense at all?

then- after the force is "in balance", it resumes its original passive state.

Is that what you mean?

 

Okay, I am finally caught up. I just finished Traitor.

I'm going to go back and read all of the posts in this thread & collect all of my thoughts before I post a full opinion.

For now I will say only this:

Vergere=Socrates


Oh, yeah, and Josh, you were right, this makes you re-think everything!

 

Okay, I lied, I must post something else now.

"The Force is All, All is One."
After reading this book, I felt as though I had been sitting at the foot of Socrates, as he dispensed the truths of humanity in a Greek courtyard. This books was far more than a mere SW novel, it gave a unique insight into our own lives.

"Trust is an act of faith."
Oh, yeah, this is one I have struggled w/ my whole life and this Stover guy just lays it out there like it is a kindergarten principle that we just missed. And of course, it really is. The hardest part of this statement is the follow through.

"Choose, and act."
This is something that has been missing from a lot of the books. Personal responsibility. It's not some mystical Dark side that makes you do thing you don't want to do. You choose to follow that path and act on it. No person or thing forces you to do anything. Choose, and act, simple.

"There is no Dark Side."
Of course there isn't. And I don't think, looking back, that they ever really told us there was. It was merely an interpretation of a difficult concept to share w/ others. Anakin (both of them) were dangerous because they were able to tap into the raw power of the Force so effortlessly. That "Certain Point of View" thing totally applies to this thing. And I think Master Yoda knew it all along, so did Qui-Gonn. Just look at the way Qui-Gonn is able to sense this "convergence" in the Force, and right away Yoda knows it's the truth. Look at it this way, Stover's the only one to be allowed to mention "Little Anakin." I think we're about to get something really big w/ these last books.

Okay, I'm done w/ that, & I feel much better now.

As for Vur-jur-Ay, I believe the way she was described, is a feathered yet feline face (complete w/ a mustachio of whiskers), having a crest of feather (like a cockatoo), and having small amounts of leathery scale-like skin about her reverse jointed legs (think chicken, only bigger). Something like the flying creatures of the Pre-History period here on earth. Also, she has iridescent feather which can change colors w/ moods and light.

 

[face_shocked] Josh! Wow guys, this really is too much for me on a Sunday night!


*SB*

 

I'm ignoring the drama at the moment, if there's one I've learned is that you don't fan the flames of a fire if you want it to go away.

What did you think of my Traitor posts?

 

Very good ZOO. More grist for the mill.

 

LOL. sorry SB. I've been mulling over the whole issue of- Does the force have a will of its own- Do Midichlorians carry out that will- Was Shmi an "immaculate conception"-If so is the force acting in self defense by creating anakin? to destroy the sith/balance the force, yada yada yada.

all those things point to "the force" being a thinking being. Thats just weird. the one quote that gets me. luke:"[the force] controls your actions?" ben:"partially, but it also obeys your commands."

what exactly does that mean? "controls"? "obeys"?

I'm convinced the whole darkside/lightside thing is up to the person. But what if the force itself is split up too? most thinking beings have good and bad sides to them. so maybe the good guys use the "good part" and the bad guys use the "bad part". but then there is a dark side. technically. its like... every OTHER atom, or molecule... or something. lol

























aw jeez. i dont know. I'm gonna read Trator again & get more confused.

 

If the Force did use an "emaculate conception" why did they wait for Anakin? Why wouldn't it have brought the "chosen ones" centuries earlier? Why was it Qui-Gon had to encounter the boy before he knew of his presence? Why didn't Yoda, or Sidious for that matter, know of the boy when he(Anakin) was born? You would think that Anakin would have created such an impact on the Force as soon as he was born, since he was concieved from the Force.

 

good question!!! if i had any kind of answer- I'd post it.

then again..... if you trace any action back far enough- you can find any explanation you want- like: the force caused the ship to get hit, so it would have to stop for repairs.


but that theory is soooooooooooo thin.

 

Who's to say Yoda didn't know about him? The guy is a tricky little bugger