CT Understanding Luke's Cave vision

I first saw TESB as a kid and I didn't understand the cave sequence.

 

I first saw it on VHS and didn't realize it was supposed to be Luke's head in the Vader mask after it explodes. I just thought Vader having a younger mans face meant something that I wasn't old enough to understand.

 

I see the cave as a place where one's mettle is put to the test. Specifically, one will be confronted with the biggest core issue or obstacle in their life/destiny and they get to see the consequences of how they respond to it.

It's basically somewhat like an oracle or Galadriel's Mirror. It's a classic mythological motif, which uses metaphors and visions as clues to advise the hero, which he has to figure out the meaning to in his/her own personal way.

Unbeknownst to him at the time, Luke's central issue was that Darth Vader was his father, and I see it as: if he was going to accept that fact, and stay on the Jedi path and save his father, he needed control of his counterproductive negative emotions, otherwise he will make the same mistakes and share in the same fate.

The test in the cave was to teach Luke, like with any Jedi, not to give in to fear, anger, hate, aggression, and that there are alternatives to fighting to solve problems. He took those, and his weapons, in with him. And in acting on them, and assuming that violence is the only answer, he failed. In other words, he was shown that by using negative emotions to defeat his adversaries, he is no better than they are.

And on a personal level, he was shown that there is a deep connection between him and Vader. Emphasizing all the more how crucial it is he have mastery of his mind and emotions when confronting Vader, because this is when it will matter most.

While Vader may have parried first, it was Luke who ignited his sword first; and them's fightin' words. Luke was the one who decided that this confrontation would be dealt with by fighting - because at first sight of Vader, his reaction was that of all the negative emotions stated - either way, it all brought out his worst. The apparition of Vader only responded in turn.

Luke may have "won", but it was a Pyrrhic victory at best. Luke's victory came at the cost of giving in to the dark side, which is ultimately a failure on multiple fronts.

As you said:

 

When I was a kid I thought Yoda (who I thought trained other Jedi on Dagobah) set up the Darkside cave as a sort of test as part of their training.

Once I got older I became very curious as to where this cave originated from. Clearly it's a man-made structure. Who built it? Why is it there, in such a random desolate swamp planet? and WHY did Yoda come to an unknown planet and settle in RIGHT where this place was? I'm actually sad we never learned anything more about it...

 

I can't remember the source, possibly the ESB novelization or something, but I basically somehow grew up with the knowledge that the cave on Dagobah is the ruins of an ancient Sith temple from many centuries earlier. Which is what imbues it with it's oracle-like qualities. And though it is long abandoned, it still resonates strongly in the dark side of the Force which is why Yoda chose to hide there, as it conceals his Force signature - as does the rest of the teeming life on the planet.

If anyone remembers where this bit of info is from please mention it, I've been trying to remember for years. It was some sort of common knowledge in the SW community back in the day.

 

Probably a mix of fan speculation and EU info. The "Sith temple" bit isn't mentioned in Legends as far as I'm aware - the first source to speculate on the cause of the "Dark Side aura" was the early Legends book Heir to the Empire, which went with "A Dark Jedi was battled and slain by Yoda on that spot during the Clone Wars, and that left the effect". It made no mention of temple ruins though.

It also had the "positive and negative auras, seen from far away, cancel, hiding Yoda" reason for Yoda choosing to live on that planet.

A later Star Wars Tales story had a Dark Jedi slain by a young Yoda-type alien called "Minch" as the reason for the area being contaminated with Dark Side energy. Possibly an attempt at retconning the original explanation so the Cave could be Dark Side, earlier in the timeline?

 

I'd argue that the cave isn't man-made. I think the force can manipulate the minds of the people that go down there and show them certain things. The shape of the "man-made" area of the cave is the same shape as the hallway that Luke and Vader battle in later in Cloud City. I think the force in that cave is just able to show Luke where he will later be. I mean, if the force can make Darth Vader appear, it can certainly make the cave walls look different too.

Not that it really matters either way.

 

I see....so you're thinking is that even the cave structure is actually part of Luke's vision as well? I never thought to see it that way.

I always figured it was man made cos if you look at some of the angles and "doorframe looking parts" in that structure, it's all too symmetrical to simply be natural growth. It stands out from all the other vegetation around it that way. That said, I guess there's a lot of blurred lines surrounding what parts of that scene are actually just a vision and what was really there-kind of leaving it to the viewer really (i.e. did Luke really ignite and swing his lightsaber around? Is Vader the only part of the vision or the whole structure? etc.)

 

It could just be coincidence. Both stages could have been designed by the same team. IDK, knowing how involved Irvin Kershner was with everything, I want to believe this was intentional.

 

Were the snakes and lizards in the cave "normal" animals or somehow mutated? And how much was their behavior altered by the evil in the cave? Were they a potential danger to visitors?

Always wondered about that, since i first saw ESB.

 

Luke failed because he went in with weapons against Yoda's instruction and because he fully intended to kill Vader (even if it was partially self-defense).
He also didn't seem to understand what seeing his face in Vader's destroyed helmet meant. It likely was giving a clue of his bloodline and also how he could become the next Vader if he's not careful.

 

I think the simple message that Yoda wanted Luke to learn is he could become Vader. However, on a deeper level its foreshadowing that Vader is Luke’s Father, that the man behind the mask is a Skywalker.

 

It could just have been a case of recycling sets I spose but I think it does open up the possibility that the cave itself was intended to be a bit of a vision, the shape of its walls mirroring a location were Luke was going to face Vader in the future. You could argue I spose maybe there migt have been more of an intension to show us more of the man made aspects of the cave playing up this or at being some kind of ancient Sith temple but footage was trimmed down to a minimum were you can only barely make it out.

I must admit my view watching the OT in the 80's and early 90's was very much that Yoda had always lived to Degobah, it just seemed naturally well suited to an old mystical master who are very often shown to reside in such locations. My view of the Jedi generally though was that they were much less organisaed than we see in the PT, more an order of mystics working behind the scenes than a galatic police force.

 

They aren't a police force though.

I never understood why so many people got the idea in the OT that they were some sort of secret organization when Obi-Wan established right from the beginning that they were the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic.

 

We get enough detail to understand that the Jedi were "known" beyond their own circle but I don't think really enough to get a firm idea of exactly how they operated.

Han's lack of belief of the Jedi for example I think becomes harder to believe given their prominence in the prequels and I think within the OT you see that Luke's powers are "known" by some other higher up rebels without really being trumpeted.

 

I find it weird that no one remembers the Jedi. (e.g Din Jaren) they only got wiped out 30ish years ago, surely most people would remember?

 

"I don't like explanation of anything. The beauty of film is that you see it and you hear it and the audience goes along with you. The confrontation between Luke and Vader in the cave is very simple, for instance. Luke goes down into a hole that becomes a cave, and it's totally real. If it wasn't done totally real, it would have no power, no tension." - Irvin Kershner: Annotated Screenplays.

Even in the PT, Anakin had only heard about the Jedi. Judging by Qui-gon and Ben's general behavior on Tatooine, they don't exactly go around announcing themselves. You might cross paths with one and never even know it.

 

I've never knowingly met an FBI agent, but if they got disbanded tomorrow I wouldn't just forget about them 30 years later.

 

I wonder if perhaps during the filming of the OT maybe the Jedi were imagined as being more of secret operatives and less well-known and publicly visible than the PT portrayed them as being. I'm reminded of how MI6, the real-life British spy agency which employs the fictional James Bond, for many years officially did not exist.

 

Have they forgotten the Jedi? Seems most people remember them. The Rebels say, "May the Force be with you." and are looking for Kenobi. The Imperial officers remembers them but they've become a point of derision. Han has at least heard of the Force but doesn't believe in it. Jabba etc., etc. We could safely say it looks like 20 years of propaganda and group think has done its trick.

 

I always figured the Jedi were comparable to Shaolin Monks; the world is aware that they exist. And although basic things are understood, not a lot of minute detail is really known about them. If something happened and they were disbanded or simply faded into history, I could see how the world may simply think of them as legends-if not even "out of sight out of mind" after some 30-50 years. I see the Jedi as similar-sure there are way more of them then there are Shaolin Monks, but also the galaxy is much larger than our world-so I could accept the ratio comparison. But it seemed generally people knew of the Jedi and in the most basic sense what they stood for, but didn't really know much more beyond that-and the vast majority of beings would go their entire lifetime never actually meeting a Jedi themselves.

Very similar IMO.

 

It is a 10 000 to 100 quadrillion ratio of Jedi to normal people so it’s probably true.

 

The Jedi are indeed a rare sight, even within the Republic. Lucas established that right at the beginning of TPM, where someone as important as the viceroy of the Trade Federation had never even met one. But that's mostly due to their small numbers in a vast galaxy.

That said, due to how ancient their order is and specially their extraordinary abilities/feats, they have a legendary reputation throughout the galaxy.

 

They were in hiding on Tatooine. Of course they didn't announce themselves. When Obi-Wan visits Kamino (when he's not in hiding) he announces himself immediately.

 

You're talking about one human police force on one planet. I'm talking about one "police force" amongst thousands of worlds and species...

Exactly.