Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi

For me, I don't think this issue is an EU/anti-EU debate. Lucas and Lucas Ltd has approved the EU stories and I think that they are valid unless they directly conflict with Lucas' vision.

The topic here is wether or not Vader is a Sith or a Dark Jedi.

I just do not like the term Dark Jedi at all. It is not specific and it implies some sort of connection to the Jedi order, which it does not have.

A Jedi is a Jedi
A Sith is a Sith
A Padawan is a Padawan
See the pattern?
what we need is a new term that means "former Jedi who left the order, but is now evil"
I suggested "Thrall" because it sounds menacing

Another person suggested "Magus" because of its mystical link
Whatever the new term is, it needs to have a specific meaning and eliminate the ambigous nature of Dark Jedi...

 

It is not specific and it implies some sort of connection to the Jedi order, which it does not have.

I think its being unspecific is the whole point, Dark Jedi is not an Order like the Jedi Order or the Sith Order, it's just random Force adepts who have had Jedi training, and use what they've learned from that training in the service of the Dark side of the Force. And it does have a connection to the Jedi order, Dark Jedi are Jedi (any level) who have gone bad.

Dooku and Vader are both Sith Lords who have had traing in the Jedi order. If they had never joined up with Palpatine and were still of the Dark Side, then they would be classified as only Dark Jedi.

Maul and Sidious are both only Sith Lords, a specific Order of Darksiders. To my knowledge, neither has received any Jedi training of any kind so they cannot be called Dark Jedi.

Last, I think being a Sith Lord overides the title of Dark Jedi because it is specific and signifies a particular Order, which Dark Jedi does not. So while Vader can be correctly called both a Dark Jedi and a Sith Lord, the title of Sith Lord is the most proper one to use when describing him in the OT (except for the end of RotJ).

 

Well, we agree on some points, but still disagree on others:

it's just random force adepts who have Jedi training:

I don't think this is the case. While I do AGREE with the assumption that not all force users are Sith Or Jedi, I don't agree with your assumption that those who have had Jedi training are considered Jedi. Just what is a Padawan then? if you undergo training, but fail the test, you won't become a Jedi, you loose all rights to be connected to that term.

Same thing with those who are expelled. Once you abandon the Jedi code, you abandon all rights to be connected to the Jedi.

I consider Dark Jedi to be similar to the term "crooked cop" Here, crooked is a descriptor for cop, it's not a term that stands alone. You wouldn't say "meet my partner, Bob"- he's a CROOKED cop. A police officer that was corrupt would be thrown out. Why would you then say that Vader was a Dark Jedi?

Since we are all in almost total agreement that Dark Jedi are NOT Jedi, here lies the conflicting nature of the term.

 

Just what is a Padawan then? if you undergo training, but fail the test, you won't become a Jedi, you loose all rights to be connected to that term.

Not necessarily. While one can't be a "Jedi Knight" until they complete the Trials, they could still be considered a "Jedi Padawan".

In ESB, Luke was still a "Jedi apprentice".

Those that don't know better, or don't get technical, can call anyone with Jedi arts training ( from an initiate to a Master )..."Jedi".

 

Hmmmm. Interesting points raised, but...

In ESB, Luke was still a Jedi Apprentice

Yes, but he was working to become a Jedi, so Jedi apprentice or Jedi Padawan would be natural extensions.

This would be equvivalent to someone who is a Doctoral CANDIDATE, they are actively completing their Phd requirements. If that person gave up on the requirements, he would not earn the Phd, and therefore would not be entitled to use that particular title.

What about someone who was completely expelled from the order? THAT person would not have the right to be considered Jedi_____.

When Dooku or Vader left the Jedi Order, they turned in their "Jedi memebership card" so to speak. After that, they became something totally different.

 

Well, you've got some good points. Just going by the movies, I don't see anything wrong with your POV. But I prefer the official designations for dark side former Jedi.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Fair enough..
That is why I think it would be fun if we came up with alternative terms for Dark Jedi, I know they wouldn't hold much stock, but isn't there anything that you or others could come up with that have a "dark, Star Warsy" feel
some proposals:
Magus
Thrall
Foresaker

I just think it would be a fun, creative exercise.

 

Extremely well thought out point, Merkurian..

It does make sense to use a blanket term if you really don't care to go into detail. John Citizen ( who by the way, is a clone of Joe Sentient, the REAL meaning of AOTC )
doesn't care who is chopping off his arm with that fancy laser sword, just that the guy is one evil SOB, hince the term "Dark Jedi"

kind of how nobody says "pass the Lego(tm) brand interlocking plastic blocks", they just call everything Legos...

PS- Is "hince" actually a word or is it a mild dillusion.....?

 

Mr44...
"PS- Is "hince" actually a word or is it a mild dillusion.....?"

Are you asking if "hince" is equivalent to 5,280 feet of psychosis, or something which happens when you're confused about eating a Vlasic when in reality it's Heinz?

Geez, figuring out Dark Jedi was tough, but I'd say we're in a real pickle over this one. ?

 

Geez Genghis,
I'll only say this once....

NOWHERE in the films does it give a measurement for "hince." Oh sure, there was some speculation that GL hinted in a third party German interview that hince was equvilent to 3400' of psychosis, but 5280' is purely an EU term. I'd wish you'd quit your wild speculation about something that CLEARLY is not cannon.

...You know I DID have pickles for lunch...

 

Hince doesn't have an Infinities Icon, so it must be Canon.

 

No one here has heard of the Incom TC-45 Rebel Hince Cannon?
*******SPOILER ALERT********


If you haven't- don't worry it will have a MAJOR role in the Ultimate, Gold, Classic Edition Star Wars DVD!



You know, I should really invest in better spell checking technology............

 

I'm still wondering if by "mild dillusion" you meant:

---

"mile delusion - 5,280 feet of psychosis"[hr][/ul]or...[ul][hr]"mild dill-usion - a trick of the mind involving a certain kind of pickle"[hr][/ul]And I suppose you could fire pickles from a cannon.

Although I don't think it'd be as impressive as using a watermelon with Gallagher's Sledge-o-Matic.

 

Hehe. Gallagher's funny. My dad met him.

 

No, no...GrandAdmiralJello,
it should be:

Hence, now I'm confused...........

 

Sing a song of hince pence
A pocket full of rye
Four and twenty Sith Lords baked in a pie...


Everyone, sing along with the Genghis!

 

In the ANH novelization, the first thing said about Vader is that he is a Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

Whuuups-This has taken a serious turn.....

(clearing mind and focusing on the task at hand...)

This was almost completely resolved in my mind, but now I'm not so sure.

In Dark Empire II, during the recap of Operation Shadow Hand, the following passage is mentioned:

"..the evil ruler(taking about cloned Emperor) initiated an elite corps of 7 warriors whom he empowered with the dark side. These "dark Jedi" AS HE CALLED THEM, were authorized to put into action his master plan.

The term dark Jedi (small d) was ACTUALLY in quotes in the story, as well as the phrase as he called them. This seems to indicate that the term would not standard within the SW universe.

It seems to be a personal nickname used by the Emperor, or one of description, which would mean that there would be no standard dark Jedi.

 

AAARRGH...
so now we have small d dark Jedi, which indicates not a true Jedi....

big D Dark Jedi which indicates a former Jedi who is now evil....

Sith, which is a seperate dark order

and the regular "peacekeeping" Jedi order.

throw in individuals such as the Emeror's Hands, clones, and Bounty Hunters...

NO WONDER there are so many rebellions in the universe, nobody ever knows who is who!

ps- "mook" isnt that the furry creature from Thundaar the Barbarian?