Was Anakin REALLY Darth Vader before donning the suit?

i think if you equal vader with being unrepentantly evil and detached, he isn't then.


Well, if Vader were unrepentantly evil and detached, how could he be redeemed
at the end of ROTJ? I think what becomes of Vader shows that he isn't the
paragon of evil people want to make him.

 

Well, if Vader were unrepentantly evil and detached, how could he be redeemed at the end of ROTJ? I think what becomes of Vader shows that he isn't the paragon of evil people want to make him.

um, i think i mean that.

he is conflicted over his assignments in ROTS.

what he does, IMHO, is that he resigns himself to this way as the only way and accepts that he cannot turn back now (after he has supposedly killed padme).
and i hang on to the idea that anakin isn't dead in him, just that there's nothing that challenges anakin to come oput again, if you know what i mean.

arguably he is very detached from the violence and pain he causes in the OT, though.

 

"Henceforth you shall be known as Darth...Vader"

That's it. That's when he becomes Darth Vader.

If you associate the suit with the sith, then you've severely missed the point.

 

uh, was that a response to my post?

anyway, i disagree, sid is giving him a new name to cement his new status and philosophy, doesn't mean he accepted it or embraced it as much as he does in the OT. it just means he's got something to hide behind.

 

It wasn't a response to your post, but I see your point. It's a matter of degree, you are right about that. But, at this point in the film, he has embraced the dark side, even if it's just to save Padme. "Love can't save you Padme, only my new powers can do that"

This Lucas quote is useful too.

"There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

--George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.

 

Lucas's quote in my sig also helps; Anakin was "stuck in the suit" before Obi-Wan and Padme even landed on Mustafaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr.

A suit's an accessory; Luke didn't have to hold a lightsaber to be a Jedi.

- O_F

 

A suit's an accessory; Luke didn't have to hold a lightsaber to be a Jedi.

Right on, Obi_Frans. Anakin became Vader when Palpatine gave him the moniker and he accepted it.

Had Vader won his fight with Obi Wan and had not gotten burned and not needed the suit, he still would have been evil, he still would have been Darth Vader.

 

I really don't think so...Anakin crying on Mustafar? I really doubt he was truly Vader then...how about when he was actually *in* the suit and he heard about Padme...he was in agony..I really just think it was a matter of time before Vader became..well, Vader.

 

Um...no.

Before he chokes Padme, he tells her he is more powerful than Palpatine and can "overthrow him". Then, they can rule the galaxy as husband and wife.

Also, in ESB after he cuts off Luke's hand. "You can destroy the Emperor, he has forseen this." And, "we can rule the galaxy as father and son". Even before Sidious tells him about Luke, Vader is "obsessed with finding young Skywalker".

This junk about not being Vader before the suit is just absurd. You people are hearing what you want to hear. I thought one of the coolest things in the whole saga was seeing Darth Vader without a scary suit on. The suit is meant to keep him alive, nothing more. There is ALWAYS conflict within him, even though he denies it saying "there IS no conflict". Before he brings Luke before Sidious in ROTJ, he says, "It's too late for me, son." That does not however, make him less of a Sith. Dooku seemed downright heroic when he tells Obi-Wan "together we can destroy the Sith". Is Yoda less of a Jedi when he questions Luke's motivations or says he is not ready to be trained? It is your deeds that make you good or evil, not your feelings.

 

Exactly.
If there was a "glitch" in Vader - if there was an ounce of compassion buried deep inside him, which there clearly was - he is still, by definition, "Vader".
That is who Vader is, it is his name from the moment he is given it and accepts it.
It doesn't matter what is going on inside - whatever is going on is going on inside Vader.

It's like saying Joe Bloggs loves tomato soup, but if someone offers him carrot and corriander soup and he considers it for a few moments, he stops being Joe Bloggs.
Vader's complexity has nothing to do with him being or not being called Vader.

The moment where Anakin stops and Vader begins, as Yoshi posted above, is clearly depicted in the movie.

 

The moment where Anakin stops and Vader begins, as Yoshi posted above, is clearly depicted in the movie.

why bother show him crying then?

why bother with all the internal conflict if he just snaps?

 

Because Darth Vader was never truly evil. He sold his soul to evil willingly. That is the nature of his character. The moment he sells his soul, he is Darth Vader. There aren't two Darth Vaders; there is only one.

Darth Vader is always conflicted. He just buries the good.

"You learn that Darth Vader isn?t this monster. He?s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he?s trapped. He?s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he?s a monster in that he?s turned to the Dark Side and he?s serving a bad master and he?s into power and he?s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he?s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, ?I know there?s still good in you, I can sense it.? Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he?s a monster, does he redeem himself."

-- George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005

"There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

--George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.

 

I think you miss my point.
He is shown crying because somewhere at the back of his mind there is always this voice saying "this is wrong".
But that is still "Vader" crying.
Vader has internal conflict, and has that internal conflict until he dies.
Vader crying is Vader crying.

There's still good in him, this is proven by the films.
If that is what defines him not being Vader, then he is never Vader ever in the entire saga then.
He is Vader as soon as Palpatine gives him that name and he accepts it.
It doesn't matter if there is still conflict in him, Vader is, by definition, what he is known as from that moment onwards.

 

Because "internal conflict" does not disqualify one from being a Sith (or Jedi). Vader is Vader because he uses his anger. IE, the teachings of Sidious. "I can feel your anger. It gives you focus; makes you stronger." Dooku tells Anakin as much when they are fighting in ROTS. "You have anger but you do not use it."

 

uh, okay, i think i got my questions answered.

There aren't two Darth Vaders; there is only one.

well, i certainly never assumed that.

my problem is that once he is given a name he hasn't changed his identity, so i could claim he's anakin skywalker with a different name, by the logic that you use.

when he gets knighted, sid uses the name to give him a new identity, but he cannot shed the old one just like that. the jedi use the new identity to distance themselves from what has happened, and they ignore that he is still anakin.

If that is what defines him not being Vader, then he is never Vader ever in the entire saga then.
He is Vader as soon as Palpatine gives him that name and he accepts it.
It doesn't matter if there is still conflict in him, Vader is, by definition, what he is known as from that moment onwards.

okay, alright. there is still good in him.

he *becomes* vader for me, when he resigns himself to his job at the very end of ROTS, watching the DS being built. when there is nothing left for him to respond to, no love specifically, and he finally accepts that this is going to be what he does.

he doesn't have this moment before that. hence i insist the internal conflict proves that his turn is anything but finished, there was still a lot to do and to overcome to really make him a proper sith lord.

 

There's no doubt he is Darth Vader before the suit and it isn't debateable. He assumes the title and crosses over to the Dark Side. I think the biggest problem people who grew up on the OT are having is thinking of Darth Vader as anyone other than the guy in the black suit breathing with the iron lung.

 

there is a debate here, sorry having to contradict you.
vader is just a name. it's an *attempt* to give him a new identity, one which he only assumes after he has no choice left.

 

But that's exactly it - Darth Vader is just a name.
And the question this thread poses is: Was Anakin REALLY Darth Vader before donning the suit?
And the answer is "yes" he really was, because we see him adopt that name onscreen.

"Vader" is not a measure of how good, evil, conflicted, sad or happy "the character played by Hayden" was or is.
It has nothing to do with his personality at all, and even less to do with his suit.
Vader is his name when he becomes a Sith, and we see the moment that he makes a consious decision to pledge himself to Sidious and his Sith teachings.
That is when he adpots the name Vader and so, by definition, he is Vader from thereon in.
It couldn't be clearer to me... it doesn't matter how torn he is - he is always torn to a degree - but that is not what this thread is about, it is about when he becomes Vader.
Which, as you say, is just the adoption of a name - nothing more, nothing less.

 

The Vader of ROTS is different than the Vader of ANH who is different than the Vader of TESB who is different than the Vader of ROTJ. If you listen closely, his voice even changes. The character is evolving.

Darth Vader exists from the moment he is given the name until the moment when he sacrifices himself for his son. Just because he doesn't fit darth frared's DESIRED personality in ROTS, doesn't mean he is not 100% Sith Lord from the moment he chooses the Dark Side.

 

yes, next subject

 

"Anakin on the balcony contemplating what he?s done. This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that?s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he?s done but he?s now committed himself a path that he may not agree with but he is going to go along anyway.

It?s the one moment that says he?s self aware. He rationalizing all his behavior. He?s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he?s evil now and there?s nothing he can do about it and that?s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn?t do it but he can't stop it now.

You know where it's going to lead. He knows it will end with a fight with Obi Wan. He knows that Padme not buy into this new reality. He made a pact with the devil and now he?s become the devil.

The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

He's evil, but there's always going to be some good in him. It just gets buried after Padme dies. Darth Vader is the evil half of the Chosen One, while Anakin Skywalker is the good half. That's just how it is.

 

I really don't think so...Anakin crying on Mustafar? I really doubt he was truly Vader then...how about when he was actually *in* the suit and he heard about Padme...he was in agony..I really just think it was a matter of time before Vader became..well, Vader.

That is a relevant point Frared . He was definitely Vader in name , but i don't think he will really embrace his new Sith Heritage till he comes to terms with his Role in Padme's death. and i'm sure a few Imperial officers will bear the Brunt of that Guilt.

 

That's just an example of his evolution, as I mentioned above. What's with this "embrace his new Sith Heritage" garbage? He hadn't yet "embraced" it when he was slaughtering innocent children? He hadn't "embraced" it when he mercilessly diced up the Separatists? He hadn't "embraced" it when he choked his wife to the point of unconsciousness? He hadn't "embraced" it when he called his best friend his enemy, said he hated him and tried to kill him? Aren't these things at least as bad as choking out Imperial officers???

 

Absolutely, we're in agreement here. Darth Vader was never truly evil, he commited horrendous acts, and slaughted many Jedi and childern, but he was *always* conflicted. To answer the question: Yes, he was Darth Vader before donning the walking iron lung and viscious visage we've come to know and love. Darth Vader, the Sith, it all a belief, as well as attitude, Count Dooku answered to both his names, as did Sidious and Anakin. Be one when needed, the rest of the time, you're the Sith Lord, really simple actually

 

wow is it getting hostile or what?

people equal the name with the person. so, if it's just a name then there's nothing changed.

i don't have a desired personality in ROTS, i just happen to think that he is conflicted. i just happen to think that the question of this thread is aimed at: was naming him the turn in itself or was he struggling with it after wards. and i think he struggled with it and it didn't help that he had to quell all doubt for the time being...
so, when he's actually still conflicted over the new stuff that's happened to him, the jedi have already assumed that he is gone.

i think that's important. thank you for listening.