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PT Was the Jedi Council in TPM inactive?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Seeker Of The Whills, Sep 1, 2021.

  1. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    Was this inactivity a flaw in the Jedi Order by the time of the prequels? Does this inactivity show in their handling of the Sith menace? Should they have sent more Jedi, perhaps council members themselves, to apprehend Maul? Mace does promise that the Council will use all its resources, only to send just Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. What about their disapproval of Anakin's training? Should they have embraced the discovery of the Chosen One more?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2021
  2. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    They certainly were too careful and slow in actions, though I don't think the issues you mention are part of it. Their main error lay in not believing the Sith could have returned.

    They didn't know where Maul came from or where he was. They encountered him on Tatooine, and there was no link yet between him and the Trade Federation. They didn't send Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to deal with Maul, the two were on a mission to deal with the crisis on Naboo. They couldn't possible have send out all their best Jedi on a wild goose-chase everywhere, when they didn't even know where to look. We also don't know what exactly has been done in terms of finding out about the possible return of the Sith, because it isn't part of the story-line we follow in the movie.

    Their reluctance to train Anakin made no real difference. They did end up training him, and they did so in their normal way. That it did end up failing isn't caused by their early reluctance. If anything, their reluctance was sort of justified. It may have turned out differently if Qui-Gon had survived, but that obviously didn't happen. And one person thinking he may have found the chosen one isn't exactly a reason to automatically assume that it is true. But this is were their general inertia comes into play. The Jedi-Order hasn't needed to rush into things for quite some time.
     
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  3. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 20, 2015
    Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's secondary mission was to discover the identity of Maul. Sending only two Jedi was smart in a way. If they sent a bunch of Jedi, they wouldn't have necessarily drawn out Maul. But they could have sent backup so they could have captured Maul alive instead of killing him.
     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Only two Council members doubted. But the Council still decided to investigate anyway.

    That said, Lucas is referring it as inactive in contrast to the main character's actions and the plotter behind it all. I think the context is perfectly clear. The Jedi Council is obviously not inactive.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
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  5. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 20, 2015
    I get what you're saying, but Lucas says that the main characters are trying to do the right thing, while these inactive forces are working against them. So the inactive forces are doing something that is counter to what the right thing is. The corrupt bureaucracy was certainly inactive for the wrong reasons and working against the main characters.
     
  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    You're assuming that the description of "inactive forces" is inherently something bad or against what's right, but that's not necessarily the case. Padmé and Qui-Gon are trying to do the right thing. But so is the Council. Two people can try to do the right thing even if what they consider to be the right thing is not the same.

    Qui-Gon believing that Anakin is the Chosen One is right, but him dismissing the fact that Anakin is too old and with attachments is wrong. That doesn't mean he's not trying to do the right thing. It doesn't mean that the Council is also not doing the right thing. It is, but it's a stumbling block to Qui-Gon's active goals, which is what Lucas is pointing out.

    Palpatine is the active force that is working against them.
     
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  7. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    They were not so much inactive as overconfident. I got the impression that they felt that they could handle any crisis that arose with no difficulty, and that they were one step ahead of any potential enemy. However, it turned out they completely underestimated what they were up against, and ended up two steps behind their enemies. By the time they realized just how serious the situation was, and just what they were facing, they overreacted, and ended up putting themselves just where Palpatine wanted: right in the killing zone.
     
  8. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 20, 2015
    That's the impression I get as well. Obi-Wan is incredulous and perhaps overconfident when he says to Dooku that the Jedi would be aware of Sidious controlling the senate. Even though they acknowledge and admit that the dark side had clouded their vision, the Jedi (or at least Obi-Wan and Yoda) thought that the Sith could not have infiltrated the senate on their watch. They still smartly start keeping a closer eye on the senate on the behest of Mace, though.
     
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  9. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    In this particular case; it's sort of the same thing. They're so overconfident that it could never happen that they don't see any reason to take active steps in preventing it.

    I was almost certain that the senators were going to assume the Jedi were conspiracy theorists by the time of ROTS. Oh, you're looking for a Dark Lord of an extinct Sith Order and it just so happens to be the Chancellor?? Yeah right!!

    I thought that was why Palpatine wanted Dooku to drop the hint in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
  10. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Qui-Gon is already on the same level as the Jedi Council level masters with the exception of Yoda and Windu, infact the directors of the PT stated that Qui-Gon is even a better sword fighter than high level Jedi council sword fighters like Kit Fisto, since Qui-Gon is the part of the Yoda-Dooku-Obi-Wan Jedi line, and he was trained by Dooku and he trained Obi-Wan, he is a more skilled sword fighter and Jedi master than most of the Jedi council members. Qui-Gon just didn't want to join the Jedi council when they offered him a seat on the Jedi council.

    As for the other arguments; Qui-Gon told the Jedi Council that Obi-Wan is ready to become a Jedi Knight, and they told him that now this is not the time for this.

    If the Jedi council didn't care about that, they would just accept Qui-Gon's proposal to make Obi-Wan a Jedi Knight and let Qui-Gon take Anakin as his new padawan. Because the Jedi code states that one Jedi Master can take only one apprentice / padawan at once.

    That would lead to Qui-Gon being alone on Naboo against Maul, which would be even worse.

    Jedi Council's decision to postpone Obi-Wan's knighthood ceremony actually helped Qu-Gon on Naboo with him being also working with Jedi Knight level Obi-Wan at the time, while Qui-Gon, and obviously people thought it was only for preventing him from taking Anakin as his new padawan. I think they also post-poned Obi-Wan's knighthood ceremony so they could send Obi-Wan to help Qui-Gon on Naboo.

    So instead of sending another Jedi, they send Obi-Wan, basically the same thing.

    If you are saying they should've send even more than 2 Jedi Knights, I think that would be too much and it would get too much attention, and the Sith would also know (or sense) that and act accordingly, and they wouldn't engage directly with more than 3 Jedi knights, when they learned that.

    It's possible to send even another Jedi but then the Republic never agreed that the Trade Federation violated the law, it was still being discussed on the senate and the courts at that point, sending more than 2 Jedi knights could've been a challenge to the senate and the courts authority, as if the Jedi Council doesn't care what the senate and the courts says and they will do what they want to do.

    This is the passage from the movie novelization;

    The last sentence that Windu told Qui-Gon explains why they can't send more than 2 Jedi at Naboo; ''but do not intercede if it comes to war until we have the Senate's approval.''

    They simply send 2 Jedi to guard Queen, not to battle with anyone, they couldn't send more than that because that would look like a direct move against the senate and the courts, since the senate didn't approve that the Jedi should make a move to fight against the Trade Federation yet, that's why they couldn't send more Jedi at Naboo, actually they shouldn't even send 2 Jedi knights in the first place when the Senate never said they should do something about this, but they still did anyway.

    In case if they send more Jedi, this time the Sith (via Sidious's inside info, or Maul and Trade Federation would learn that there are more than 2 Jedi on Naboo and they would also inform Sidious) and they would produce a counter plan to that move of the Jedi council, the Sith wouldn't engage directly to battle with them, so that would be a completely different scenario if that that happened.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  11. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    What?
     
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  12. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    I meant they should've waited for the Senate's decision to do something, the Senate was still in the process of deciding what to do yet, as Trade Federation denied that they invaded Naboo, and the senate was going to choose a new Chancellor before doing anything about what to do on Naboo.
     
  13. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Okay, I think I follow you. Are you saying the Jedi had already been acting as the Queen's protectors and so the Jedi Council just agreed amongst itself that they would allow Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to continue to do so as an excuse to head back to Naboo?
     
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  14. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Yup,

    If the Jedi Council seriously didn't care, they could even make it worse, such as;

    A- ''We need to wait for the Senate's decision and we can't do anything before they choose their new Chancellor so there is no going to Naboo.''

    Or;

    B- ''Ok, Obi-Wan is ready to be a Jedi knight and we will grant your wishes and you can take Anakin as your new padawan, and Obi-Wan doesn't need to follow you anymore, Jedi Knight Obi-Wan can take his own separate missions, and we need you to go to Naboo as Queen's protector.'' If they did that, that would leave Qui-Gon alone without Obi-Wan on Naboo, which would be even worse. Their refusal to make Obi-Wan a Jedi Knight, actually helped Qui-Gon on Naboo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  15. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    That is an interesting quote and perspective from George Lucas. Thanks for sharing it. Not really sure my interpretation of TPM or of the Council in TPM would align with it because I feel like it might be a bit of an oversimplification.

    My thoughts and two cents would be:

    I would agree that our central characters of Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Padme/Amidala, and Anakin are all trying to do what they believe to be the right thing, but I am not convinced that they all even want the same thing or have the same goals during the Coruscant part of the story. Each one of them sort of has their own ideas and objectives to varying extents and degrees. Some of those ideas and objectives even seem to be in fairly open opposition to each other at times during the Coruscant plot. For example, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon end their time on Coruscant with an argument before they board the Queen's spaceship, and the tension between them has arguably been building up between them since they landed on until it reached a boiling point. So it's not like these characters are unified in what they want and how they want to achieve it, and the Council is opposed to them all.

    During the Coruscant plot, I'd describe the goals of the main characters I mentioned in the following ways:

    Qui-Gon: He wants to make his case to the Council that Anakin is the Chosen One of Jedi prophecy, and, as such, should be trained as a Jedi. If necessary, he wants to be able to train Anakin as his own Palawan. He also wants to inform the Council that he believes he has fought with a Sith Lord. Beyond that, he would like to protect Queen Amidala and see some resolution to the Naboo conflict as that is his mission.

    Obi-Wan: He doesn't want Anakin to be trained as a Jedi, believing it to be dangerous to do so. He also wishes that Qui-Gon would stop defying the Council. His views are probably closer to the Council's than to Qui-Gon's during this part of the movie, though I suspect he would share Qui-Gon's desire to protect the Queen and to see an end to the Naboo crisis. And he probably does believe Qui-Gon is right about the Sith being back since he doesn't argue with Qui-Gon about that.

    Padme/Amidala: She wants the Senate to take action to end the Trade Federation's invasion and blockade of Naboo, but when she is stalled by political red tape (deferring motions, establishing committee meetings), she doesn't want to get sidetracked and bogged down in those political delays and debates while her people are suffering in Federation prison camps. So she hatches a plan to go back to Naboo (risking death from the Trade Federation) and hopefully form an alliance with the Gungans to fight the Trade Federation and end the invasion and blockade that way. Padme/Amidala is at the point where she is planning to go to war and not all that concerned with her individual safety (even though a big part of the Jedi mission is arguably to protect her). So her goals and the Jedi goals may not be in one hundred percent alignment here even if all of them have some desire to resolve the Naboo crisis. As Qui-Gon phrases it, the Jedi can't fight Amidala's war for her, but they can protect her, so there is sort of a fine line there that the Jedi have to be careful not to cross.

    Anakin: He wants to be able to train as a Jedi and probably to help Padme however he can since he has formed a bond with her although at this point in the story, he doesn't realize that Padme is Queen Amidala.

    So, I am not sure that all our central characters are in alignment about what they want or what they believe is right. Indeed, in some cases, for some characters to get what they want or believe is right, another character wouldn't be able to get what they want or what they believe to be right. For example, if Qui-Gon gets what he wants and believes to be right in terms of being allowed to train Anakin, Obi-Wan won't get what he wants and believes to be right because Anakin will be trained despite the fact that Obi-Wan is convinced that it is dangerous to train Anakin. Likewise, if Anakin is allowed to train as a Jedi as he wants, Obi-Wan will not get what he wants in terms of Anakin not being trained as a Jedi. Basically, Obi-Wan and his wants/beliefs are in direct opposition to Qui-Gon's and Anakin's wants/beliefs at this point in the story. That means that if the Council gives Obi-Wan what he wants (saying Anakin shouldn't be trained as a Jedi), then that is going to mean Qui-Gon and Anakin don't get what they want. Conversely, if the Council rules that Anakin can train as a Jedi, giving Qui-Gon and Anakin what they want, that means at this point in the story, that Obi-Wan won't get what he wants. Regardless of what the Council decides, one or more of our major characters is going to be upset here. Whether that is Obi-Wan or is Qui-Gon and Anakin. The upset remains. Truthfully, though, I suspect that the Council's decisions aren't influenced by what our central characters want so much as by the Council's judgment of what they deem to be the best course for the Jedi Order and the Republic the Jedi Order is committed to serving. The Council are thinking big picture here, not about satisfying the desires of our central characters. They have their own motivations that aren't to make our major characters happy (and, as noted above, they can't make all our major characters happy in one fell swoop, anyway, as some of our main characters are in direct opposition to each other at this point in the plot).

    Beyond that, I would suggest that the role of the Council is to provide a sort of bird's eye perspective on events and to make the most important decisions for the Jedi Order as a whole. They would be in charge of deploying Jedi on missions and deciding the overall direction of the Jedi Order. On the surface, that might seem to require a lot of "inaction" in terms of attending meetings while Jedi like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are in the field completing missions like the Naboo one. However, there is still a lot of "action" going on in terms of them making important decisions that will have significant ramifications for the Jedi Order and for the Republic the Order serves. They are like the people in air traffic control giving pilots takeoff and landing directions. Maybe pilots seems more active flying around than air traffic control in their towers but air traffic control is critical to preventing crashes. Most pilots would not want to operate without air traffic control. Pilots are important, but so too is air traffic control. They have different jobs but both are necessary for smooth and safe takeoffs and landings. Same with the Jedi. Knights and Padawans might be active in the field, performing missions that do great good in the galaxy, but they do rely on the guidance of the Jedi Council, which is meant to be aware of what many different Jedi on many different missions are doing at once and coordinating those efforts in a meaningful, somewhat cohesive way to remain true to Jedi values. Basically, it might look like Yoda and Mace Windu and the other Council members aren't doing much, but in reality, they are making big decisions for the Jedi Order as a whole.

    For that reason, I don't really see the Council as an inactive force. They are making big pictures decisions with significant implications and ramifications such as whether Anakin should be trained and whether Obi-Wan is ready to be Knighted and whatnot. Maybe they aren't making some of the decisions that some of our central characters (characters we sympathize with) want but that is not the same as them being inactive. They are being active in their own way within the scope of their role and responsibility and in accordance with their own motivations (which are the welfare of the Order as a whole and of the Republic the Jedi are sworn to serve rather than making our individual characters happy).

    Also, with regard to Palpatine/Sidious in this movie, I don't know if I see him as really taking much more of an "active" role than the Council, so if the Council is taking an "inactive" role in TPM, I would consider Palpatine/Sidious as largely taking an "inactive" role as well. A villain like Maul is the clearly active one, engaging in duels with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan throughout the movies. So too is the Trade Federation in terms of blockading and invading Naboo. Whereas, Sidious takes a more passive, background strategy role akin to the Jedi Council. He is the one who orders Maul and the Trade Federation about throughout TPM. Similar to how the Council commands Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on their mission to Naboo. As a senator, Palpatine is also much more of a manipulator, convincing Amidala to call for the vote of no confidence in Valorum's leadership rather than calling for it himself, for example. He is a character who operates from the shadows rather than out in the open. He is not so much an agent of action himself as he is someone who is ordering and manipulating others to act on his behalf. He is a sinister character precisely because of how cunning and manipulative he is and how much he can hide in the shadows and get overlooked as a foe.

    To respond to your specific questions, I don't really see the Jedi as being that inactive in the PT. They are willing to get involved in the Clone Wars, for example, and we see them involved actively in missions throughout TPM and AOTC. The Jedi of the PT seem focused on trying to find that balance between actively serving the Republic and the Force and more passively pursuing meditation and calm that allows them to connect more deeply with the Force and with all forms of sentient life. The Jedi Order aren't just diplomats and warriors. They have a spiritual and reflective component to them. Both activity and passivity are elements of Jedi behavior, and Jedi need to be on guard against excessive emotion or acting on their impulses too much, as doing those things can put them at peril of falling to the Dark Side. The Jedi are expected to live a very disciplined, focused lifestyle. Like Yoda says, being a Jedi requires focus and a most serious mind.

    The Jedi are willing to fight Maul, Dooku, and Palpatine/Sidious once his identity as a Sith Lord is discovered, so I don't find them to be passive in dealing with the Sith menace.

    More Jedi could have been sent to apprehend Maul, I suppose, but Obi-Wan was capable of defeating Maul so it's not like Maul wasn't defeated by the end of TPM. The Maul threat has been dealt with by the end of TPM, and Qui-Gon still might have been killed in battle even if more Jedi were sent. There is even the possibility that more Jedi would have been killed at the end of TPM if more Jedi had been sent to confront Maul. The Battle of Geonosis, for example, where many Jedi were sent out to rescue Obi-Wan, was far more disastrous for the Jedi. So, sometimes action has consequences that can be as painful as inaction or perceived inaction.

    I've always kind of interpreted Mace's statement about using all their resources to unravel the mystery of the identity of the warrior who confronted Qui-Gon as being something of a bone being thrown at Qui-Gon to appease him since the argument was dragging out so long and there wasn't time to waste on further debate from Mace's perspective. To me, it was kind of like a "Yeah, yeah, we'll do everything we can. Get back to your work now" type of thing. Or a "we'll take it under advisement" instead of a "that's a great idea; let's do everything we can to implement it now." It doesn't really promise all that much of anything concrete so that's why I get that vibe.

    I don't really think the Council's concerns and reservations about training Anakin are unjustified or a bad thing. They sense Anakin's attachment to his mother, and know that attachment is dangerous for a Jedi (indeed, Anakin's attachment to his mother will cause him to slaughter the Tusken Raiders en masse in the next episode, and his attachment to Padme will lead him to the Dark Side in episode three, so their concerns in this regard are not unfounded). They also sense much fear in Anakin. Like Yoda says, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering. By the end of the PT, Anakin will prove Yoda's words disastrously and tragically right. Anakin's fear of death and losing those he loves will lead him to the Dark Side by the conclusion of ROTS. Anakin's fear takes him down a path of suffering not just for himself but for the entire galaxy. So, Yoda's words are not in fact wrong, and Anakin's actions by the end of the PT will actually end up proving the validity of them. For that reason, I wouldn't argue that the Council was wrong to be hesitant about training Anakin. They had solid reasons to be as demonstrated by future events in the story.

    I do think that Qui-Gon was right about Anakin being the Chosen One of prophecy, but at the same time, I think the PT shows how dangerous relying on prophecies and visions of the future can be. Prophecies and visions of the future can be very tenuous things and difficult to interpret, and sometimes acting on them can lead to tragedy and suffering (as happens when Anakin acts on his visions of Padme dying in childbirth during ROTS). Qui-Gon can be right that Anakin is the Chosen One of Jedi prophecy, but the Council can also be right that there is danger in training Anakin because of his deep attachments and because of how much fear is inside him. Therefore, I don't think the Council had to embrace the discovery of the Chosen One more enthusiastically than they did. They had valid concerns and were within their rights to express them, and indeed, events ended up bearing out the validity of their concerns. So I am not sure why the Council is so often seen as the bad guys for voicing what turned out to be very legitimate concerns that the story itself showed were not groundless.

    If the Council's concerns about Anakin were without substance, I would feel differently, but since Yoda pegged exactly what would lead to Anakin's downfall, I can't dismiss their words, nor can I act like they were clearly wrong about what they said. Anakin and Qui-Gon might not have liked what the Council said, but that doesn't mean the Council was wrong, because it wasn't the Council's job to only say and do things that would make Anakin and Qui-Gon happy. It was their job to guide the Jedi Order as best they could and to try to ensure the Order served the Republic as best as the Order could. I do believe that is what the Council tried to do throughout the PT.

    Were they able to do that perfectly? No, but all beings, including the Jedi, are fallible, so it doesn't surprise me that sometimes the Council might make some mistakes and missteps.

    That being said, I don't really see the Council as being particularly inactive in TPM or throughout the PT. They made their choices and big decisions throughout the PT, in my opinion. Some of those choices and big decisions were good. Others, especially with the benefit of hindsight, might not have been so great.
     
  16. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Knight star 3

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    Aug 26, 2021
    Yes. Inactive, incompetent, and largely geriatric. I think these guys ate dinner at 2:00 in the afternoon.
     
  17. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    What? You have a problem with the Early Bird Special? Forbid it, the Jedi Code does not.
     
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  18. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Knight star 3

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    Aug 26, 2021
    To Denny's, we will go. The menu, we must study.
     
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  19. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I do not agree.
    Consider the situation in TPM.
    The TF have invaded a republic world, killed some people and tried to kill two Jedi.
    They have in effect declared war on the Republic. Said Republic is unable to do anything about it because the senate has just removed it's leader and is busy electing another one. They also have no soldiers apart from the Jedi.
    So that is quite bad.

    Then they hear that their worst enemy the Sith might be back and this "Sith" is apparently working with the TF. That have lots of "deadly" battle ships and a "battle hardened" army. If the Sith are indeed back, that is much worse. Even if not, that the TF have some dark warrior working for them means that there is more here than just Naboo and a trade tax. Then they are presented with a child with no mortal father, that has the highest midi count ever and could be the one in a prophecy. A prophecy that the Jedi think is about someone destroying the Sith. If the Sith are indeed back then the emergence of their chosen one is likely connected.

    This should be a "All hands on deck" situation. A Republic world has been attacked and the senate is unable to act, thousands, maybe millions could be dying and the war could spread. Then add the Sith on top of that and things could be very bad.

    And look at the situation when the send two jedi to go back with Padme to Naboo. To protect her and draw out this dark warrior. What do they know of the situation on Naboo? The blockade is still there, they are not shown to know it is gone. The massive TF army is also there. Plus a possible Sith Lord.
    And just two Jedi can deal with all that? And it is such a walk in the park that it is fine to bring a nine year old kid along?
    No, the council's choice makes no sense unless they wanted Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin to all die.
    But the plot needs this to happen so it does, sense and logic need not apply.

    Going further, what did the council do in the ten years between TPM and AotC?
    Did they question Nute? They know he was working with the Sith so asking him how he made contact with them, what their overall plan was, would make sense.
    Did they take Maul's ship and dig through that? Look for comm logs, who made this ship etc?
    Not answered!

    In AotC Yoda learns that their archives have been tampered with, something only a Jedi could have done.
    What does he do? Meditate on it. Really taking this seriously I see.
    Did the Jedi do any digging about Sifo-Dyas, Tyrannus, who could have placed the order, why was Jango working for Dooku etc? As far as the films go, nope.

    So sorry, the Jedi came across as rather clueless and uncaring. And often just reacted to things rather than being pro-active.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  20. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    This annoys me the most of all. By the end of AOTC the Jedi have a clear link (JANGO) between the Separatists and the Republic. They also know that the Seps are being led by a Jedi that has fallen to the dark side. They also know that only a Jedi could have erased the files for Kamino which just so happens to be where they found Jango AND they know Jango is working for Dooku.

    Even if they think all the talk about a hidden Sith in the Republic is BS, they should still be looking into this clear link between Dooku and Kamino. But do they? Nope.

    They come across as morons.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
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  21. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Knight star 3

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    Aug 26, 2021
    I've always found that line about the Trade Federation army being; "battle hardened", unintentionally amusing. So battle hardened in fact, that they were actually made of metal.
     
  22. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @Samuel Vimes The Trade Federation have invaded a Republic world, but the Trade Federation also have their own representative in the Republic Senate in TPM just as if they were a planet, and have not declared war on the Republic. Nor has the Republic declared war on the Trade Federation. So, no, the Trade Federation is not at war with the Republic in TPM.

    There is no reason why the Republic should be unable to do anything about the Trade Federation in TPM. Sure, the Senate is electing a new chancellor in the middle of TPM, but sophisticated governments and societies are expected to be able to function and still get essential work done throughout these periods of transition and what should be routine transfers of power in a democracy.

    Jedi are not soldiers and are not an army for the Republic. Therefore, they should not be expected to operate as such or fulfill the role of such. It is on the Republic Senate, not the Jedi Council, that the Republic does not have its own army and soldiers to call upon in times of crisis. The Jedi Council is not in charge of deciding whether the Republic has an army and soldiers. So, if anyone is inactive here, it is the Republic and its Senate, not the Jedi, who are only committed to serving the Republic and its Senate to the best of their capabilities. The Jedi are not in charge of governing the Republic. That is on the Senate and the Chancellor.

    We do indeed see that two Jedi plus Padme and the Gungans are able to deal with the situation on Naboo in what probably amounts to a day or two. Qui-Gon dies, but these is no evidence that sending more Jedi would have necessarily prevented that outcome, or that other Jedi wouldn't have been killed if dispatched to Naboo.

    Qui-Gon is the one who asks for Anakin to accompany him. The Council just accedes to his request. Mace Windu pretty much says that Anakin is Qui-Gon's ward and they aren't going to dispute that with him. In other words, they are kind of tired of arguing with Qui-Gon about every little thing. So the decision to bring Anakin into a war zone is largely on Qui-Gon. Since Anakin was his ward, he could've made arrangements for Anakin to remain on Coruscant but he chose not to do that. The Council just concedes to Qui-Gon that Anakin is basically Qui-Gon's to protect and Qui-Gon's responsibility in a nutshell. The Council doesn't tell Qui-Gon that he has to bring Anakin into a war zone or to Naboo at all.

    Questioning Nute Gunray is probably the expected role of the Republic criminal justice system.

    I don't think most viewers care about what the Council did with Maul's ship but it's possible the comm logs were programmed to delete themselves and the factory a ship was made in might give very little information about it. The Council are also not the main characters of the films so it is understandable that we aren't following the Council around on their investigations of Maul's ship. I can only imagine how boring people would accuse the PT of being if a plot of a whole movie was following the Council around as they went to the galaxy far, far away equivalent of the motor vehicle department to try to access Maul's license and registration information.

    Meditation is serious among the Jedi because the Jedi Order above and beyond everything else has a spiritual commitment and role. It is the same as when the cloistered, contemplative nuns I communicate with via letter and phone tell me they will be keeping me in their prayers in a special way. I express my gratitude for their prayers and understand that their prayers are signs of them taking my needs seriously because they devote hours of their day to prayer. I view Jedi meditation in a similar light. A large part of being a Jedi is to meditate and to try to find peace, wisdom, and truth through meditation.

    So if we dismiss Jedi meditation as not serious or not meaningful, I think we cut off a lot of the spirituality and serenity the Jedi are meant to embody dating back to the OT.

    In other words, we could take the spiritual component away from the Jedi, but then they would lose what really makes them Jedi and unique creations of George Lucas in my opinion, and to me, that would be a shame.

    I much prefer the Jedi we do see who have that spiritual dimension to them.
     
  23. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    This is only because the senate (for some reason) doesn't believe Padme. The TF has attacked NABOO which (unless the Republic laws are a**-backwards) means the TF has broken the law. This is further supported by the fact that even Sidious is trying to get Padme to sign a treaty to legitimize the occupation which means that what the TF is doing is in fact illegal until that treaty is signed.

    But really, this all gets muddy anyway. Planets in the Republic are like their own states, but the Trade Federation is a company. So TPM is like if Wisconsin got into a war with Amazon and then the governor of Wisconsin went to Washington D.C. and said the President should be impeached and everyone just votes on it. The Republic is set up in such a way that, for it to have lasted as long as it's claimed to have, is almost a contradiction. A democracy that's set up like that would barely last a hundred years, not a thousands generations.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
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  24. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @FightoftheForgotten I largely agree with your comments and observations. The political situation in TPM is definitely muddied.

    Declaring war can sometimes be a complicated thing. The Trade Federation's representative in TPM is still sitting in the Senate and hasn't declared any sort of formal war on the Republic as a whole. Nor is there really much motivation for the Trade Federation to do so when the Republic Senate is largely turning a blind eye to their Naboo invasion at the midpoint of TPM. So the Trade Federation at that point in the film hasn't all but declared war on the Republic as a whole and doesn't really even need to declare war on the Republic as a whole while the Republic Senate is doing them what amounts to a huge favor by mostly ignoring their invasion of Naboo.

    As to the Republic itself, it's hard to know what the formal process for the Republic declaring war on the Trade Federation would entail. For the Republic to go to war against the Separatists in AOTC (and the Separatists are a larger threat to the Republic as a whole than the Trade Federation is to the Republic in TPM), it does seem to require the granting of some emergency powers to Palpatine to mobilize a large scale war effort. Even for a country like the US (which has an established navy, Air Force, army, etc.), there can be cases where troops are deployed to fight some place but the US is not officially at war with that other country due to the division of powers within the US where Congress has to declare war but the President is the Commander in Chief who can decide where to send troops. So I don't think the Republic is on the cusp of declaring war on the Trade Federation in TPM. At the beginning of AOTC, there is still a lot of controversy politically about building an army (not even declaring a war) to potentially handle the Separatist threat if violence arises, so I do not imagine that the Republic declaring war on the Trade Federation for the Trade Federation invading the tiny planet of Naboo would meet with broad political support. There would probably be a fair number of citizens and politicians in the Republic going, "Why didn't we try to negotiate a settlement with the Trade Federation before declaring war on them?"

    And that is even leaving aside how ill-equipped and ill-prepared the Republic is to actually declare war against anyone, including the Trade Federation. The Trade Federation plainly has an army (they used it to invade Naboo after all), but the Republic does not. Or so it becomes clear in AOTC when there is a Military Creation Act being debated at the start of that film. So for the Republic to declare war on the Trade Federation may be a rather toothless maneuver since the Republic doesn't have an army of its own and may be put in the position of having to appeal to the various member worlds that comprise it to send military aid to Naboo. Which might provoke a response on some of those planets and some of the appealed to politicians on those worlds like, "Why should we go defend the Naboo who were too lazy/dumb to build their own army? Why should we get involved? What's in it for us?" etc. So for the Republic to declare war on the Trade Federation in TPM may not be an easy thing and may make the Republic look weak rather than strong as it would call attention to the Republic's lack of an army and therefore how hard it could be for the Republic to actually enforce its will and authority over the Trade Federation.

    All this does mean that the Jedi aren't really at liberty to just unilaterally decide that the Trade Federation and the Republic are at war now. The Jedi aren't the Republic's government. They aren't the officials elected to represent the people of the Republic. So, it is up to the Republic, not the Jedi, to decide if the Republic is at war with the Trade Federation, and even if the Republic does declare war on the Trade Federation, the Jedi aren't really soldiers and an army, and it would be a mistake for the Republic and the Senate to treat them as such. That is not what the Jedi function is or should be. That is why the Republic really should have formed their own army well before AOTC rolled around.

    I don't know if it is a case of the Senate as a whole not believing Padme. There are probably some individual members of the Senate who believe her and some who might think she is exaggerating or misrepresenting the situation and others who might be allied with the Trade Federation who will support the interests of the Trade Federation in an "I scratch your back; you scratch mine" sort of way without any regard for the truth or justice or any sort of higher virtues. All that really needs to happen to undermine Padme is that the Trade Federation representative can insist the situation is ridiculous and there is no proof behind the accusations and then for one representative from Malastare to agree with the Trade Federation's representative that the accusations are unsubstantiated and that a commission must be appointed to investigate. This can have all the language of justice and fairness and rule of law while not actually having the reality. It's enough that Valorum's advisors can whisper in his ear that he does need to ask Padme to allow a commission to explore the validity of the accusations against the Trade Federation. This really only involves a handful of politicians being aligned with the Trade Federation or on the payroll of the Trade Federation (as Palpatine puts it to Padme) and Padme gets totally stymied by governmental and procedural red tape. So it may not be the Senate as a whole not believing Padme just a case of some politicians with clout and connections to the Trade Federation being able to prevent true justice from being achieved.

    Padme's situation is also sort of undermined by her youth. She is only fourteen and recently elected as ruler of her planet (which Palpatine so helpfully reminds the whole Senate before she addresses the Senate, arguably undercutting her authority even as he introduces her). She likely has not had the chance to forge connections in the Senate beyond Palpatine or to really prove to the Senate that they should take her seriously as a leader. They may very well view her as young and naive. If Padme were older and had more political experience and connections, I think the Senate scene might have gone differently for her. As it is, she is indeed young and able to be manipulated by Palpatine into pushing for a vote of no confidence on Chancellor Valorum. It is also worth noting that Palpatine's real goal there is getting that vote of no confidence, not ending the Trade Federation's invasion of Naboo. It's possible that if Naboo had a senator that was actually committed to ending the invasion of Naboo and not stealing Valorum's job, that things would have gone better for Naboo. Even if Palpatine hadn't reminded the whole Senate before Padme spoke of how new Padme is to power (and by extension how young and inexperienced she is), things might have fared better for her and Naboo.

    I do think what the Trade Federation is doing on Naboo is illegal and that is why they want Padme to sign the treaty but I am not convinced the Republic's first response to that would be to declare war on the Trade Federation. Probably it is more likely that the Trade Federation would be ordered to leave Naboo at once and pay Naboo some restitution or something similar first. I doubt the Republic would immediately jump to a violent solution especially when the Republic does not have its own army but the Trade Federation does. Now the weakness of the Republic's position could easily be exposed if the Trade Federation responds, "You and what army are going to make me leave Naboo?" Which does point again to why the Republic should've created its own army well before AOTC because without an army it really has no force to back up its will. It is all bark and no bite. A paper tiger if there ever was one.

    I do think it was a mistake for the Republic to ever grant corporate interests like the Trade Federation representation equal to that of planets in the Senate. It would indeed be like if Amazon or McDonalds or Walmart had Senators as if they were states like New Jersey and Colorado and Oregon instead of companies. I also think it was a mistake for the Republic to not have an army of its own and to let corporations like the Trade Federation build armies on that scale. Again, it'd be like if the US had no Air Force, army, navy, and coast guard but Amazon, McDonalds, and Walmart all had armies capable of invading Delaware or Rhode Island or wherever. It's like, "Um, something about this is very wrong. The balance of power is very skewed and we are teetering on the brink of disaster here."

    But I do think that is negligence and inactivity on the Senate and the Republic's part rather than on the Jedi Council's part. It's not really the Jedi Council's job to decide that the Republic needs an army or that the Trade Federation should not be allowed to have one or if the Trade Federation should have representation in the Senate or if the Republic should declare war on the Trade Federation. These are all government decisions outside the purview of the Jedi Council.

    Sorry for getting a bit long-winded in this post. Anyway, long story short, I don't really disagree with what you say. I'm just inclined to put a bulk of the blame on the Republic and the Senate rather than on the Jedi.

    (What can I say I'm more sympathetic to the Jedi than to politicians:p)
     
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  25. Jedi_Prophet77

    Jedi_Prophet77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2017
    Lucas has also said somewhere that Ep. I showed the Jedi and Republic in their prime (which is why the lightsaber fights are so flashy, the ships are so shiny, and the CGI'd landscapes are so ubiquitous). Put with his quote about 'inactive forces' among the Jedi and the Republic, I think it's illustrative of hubris: pride as a classic set-up for a tragic fall. By the end of the prequels, the galaxy has fallen tragically on every level: individually (Anakin), collectively (the Republic/Empire), and spiritually (the Jedi). What's interesting to me is that the prequels end with a note of hope in the birth of the twins at the darkest moment. The tragic fall is not the end of the story, but is itself a set-up for 'a new hope'.
     
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