PT What do people mean when they say the Prequels lack 'heart and soul'?

The OT didn't do it for me. The characters are good, but not great. As a main hero, Luke is driven by an unexplained desire to follow his father's path and his drawbacks aren't very convincing. The problem, perhaps, lies in Lucas' philosophy of that time, when all you had to do to turn to the dark side was to get angry. Leia was good in ANH, we lost her later, Han was good in ANH, he was so-so later, and their love story, in the end, was for what? A man and a woman must be together?
TFA failed in many regards. The main hero is a girl for whom I do not care. She can do everything by herself, she's never in any real danger, she's a survivor. Finn and Poe are just there.
As I said before, the PT characters seam more human than any of them. Anakin thinks he's been held back, Padme fights for her people, Obi-Wan is an obedient Jedi, tragedies happen, the movies are build on each other (unlike the OT where in TESB and ROTJ the Alderaan destruction is never mentioned again and unlike TFA where the OT more or less didn't happen, except the iconography). The PT has a soul, a human soul, while the other four movies have the film soul. And heart? Definitely.

 

"My heart is beating..."
"You are in my very soul..."

Case closed. The PT literally has heart and soul.

 

Agreed! Wow. So heart. Very soul.

Thank you. I'd also like to point out that if I'd wanted to be truly partisan I could have just left the PT out of the rankings altogether!

 

Yea btw, what's up with that lol - I make the account here some months ago, the forum's populated by irrational fans; now it's irrational fans vs. irrational critics, and the latter have even kind of taken over!

What is this, some kind of migration? From another forum? From the OT sub? Or one started this and then others saw and jumped on board? Interesting

 

Well that is great and all and makes the point but I prefer the long drawn out answers as opposed to you getting straight to the point.

Very interesting take.

I think from a Lucas point of view it's driven by his choices at the time of the OT when he was coming from a "simpler" as it were fairytale like approach. It was about using the staples of SF, war, westerns, Kurosawa and the like. His filtering of all of his sources through an obviously more child friendly perspective even when doing TESB and ROTJ.

By the time of the PT he had met Campbell and gained a whole different appreciation of the mythology he was dabbling in before. Hence why the PT goes far deeper into various aspects than the OT ever could.

Perhaps due to this and simply the desire to have the PT heroes (and villains for that matter) be flawed and imperfect was more interesting to him personally than having a more obvious good and evil divide.

The OT at it's heart was always intended to be a much simply tale hence Luke path to go down the Dark Side is presented in a far simpler and easy to get to way compared to Anakin. If Luke gives in to the Dark Side in a moment of anger and kills Vader then he will be consumed very quickly while for Anakin killing Dooku was the start of the final descent he had already been treading the path of for some time. Besides that Palpatine had been working on Anakin for years while he only had met Luke a few minutes earlier and already was playing him.

Which is always very interesting to me because I take it very much the opposite way.

So the real question is why does it come across that way to you?

Why does what to me is the obvious bonds between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, Anakin and his mother, Anakin and Qui-Gon, Anakin and Padme, Padme and her people not resonate with you? The Jedi Council were cold etc but that is how they are. That is what institutions are whether it's the Jedi, the Senate/Republic or later the Empire.

Does Leia not care about Alderaan? Yet all we get is "there is no time for sorrows". No one really seems to give all that much a damn about Alderaan except Obi-Wan. Luke mourns Owen and Beru for two scenes.

The type of camaraderie between the characters is not going to be like the OT nor should it be.

One of the underlying aspects of TPM is that this invasion of Naboo at the end of the day is seemingly a minor dispute. In ANH the fate of the galaxy is at stake. In TPM no one realizes (nor could they) that the same kind of stakes are being played and unlike ANH the bad guy wins...and no one knows it.

As I have said before TPM is a prologue to the start of the "Star Wars" proper. Hence the very appropriate title of The Phantom Menace.

 

People just keep making this distinction even though it doesn't hold up at all.

 

It's rather the whole point that holds it all up I'd say.

The Jedi were flawed, the Republic, Anakin, Padme, Obi-Wan, Yoda etc etc.

 

Hmmm there's recently also been people coming in here claiming to provide sensible arguments amidst many "unreasonable parties" & being condescending towards other people's arguments.
(POST EDITED TO REMOVE SOCK DISCUSSION)
It's just interesting to see a recent influx of very similar types of posters......

 

No more flawed than in the first 3.

The whole idea that the new ones have "more grey shades" is also bogus.



EDIT:
@the_Maestro
Hey wait, weren't you one of the guys who argued for the Anakin=Joffrey thing above? I went into a bit of detail on that in the "Anakin turn" thread, it rather debunks this notion you were arguing for.

In case you've read it, maybe that's the reason you're doing this whole sock accusation thing - because you've got nothing to say in reponse?


I'm pretty sure I've been here longer than you - so I'd suggest you either go respond to my comment, or stick your gossip some place else ; - )

 

Nope, I argued against the Anakin=Joffrey point (we're probably in agreement about it). I'm just commenting about the types of posters here, just like you were.

 

Oh wait yeah - you made a slightly more "moderate" response, but that's like saying "look maybe Reptilians merely control 93% of the political elite - I'm not quite sure it's 98%".

And yes, that's how crazy that proposition is, and its more "moderate" versions as well - 50% of Clones is Anakin being a good bloke and exchanging quips with Obiwan.
So yea, you did argue for Anakin=Joffrey, all things considered ; - )



I didn't accuse anyone of being socks, I just found it amusing how quickly the face of this forum changed and wondered if there was any cause for it - so as I said, go stick this BS somewhere else.




PS: Ah, I guess your account's a month older than mine, then (Oct / Nov).
But I'm pretty sure you weren't as vocal back then, or at least this general group you belong to ; - )

 

I said there was a key difference between Anakin and Joffrey. Joffrey took pleasure in others' suffering while Anakin did not. Despite the many negative qualities Anakin has, he's not ever taking joy in causing other people pain, like Joffrey is. So no, I didn't argue for Anakin=Joffrey, all things considered ; - )

And who said anything about socks? I just found it amusing how we could recently have people who think so similarly in the forum, not unlike how you were talking about irrational fans & critics on the forum. Anyway, sorry to derail the topic. We should get back to the "heart and soul" conversation.

One interesting thing I read was the distinction between "soul" on a production level and on a character level. I do believe the PT was made with soul on a production level, in that Lucas was passionate about it and made it due to a creative spark. On the other hand, a lot of why I think people say they lack soul is due to being unable to connect with the characters.

 

Ah, so you were disagreeing a lot, while using phrases like "well maybe perhaps if slightly I might interject, I think you make a lot of sense but maybe slightly I'd disagree with that"?

Okay whatever, I guess that was days ago.


PS: Ah, yea your post was a sock accusation - a textbook case in fact.
But you seem to be backtracking from that now and this thread already got a warning, so whatever it's cool I suppose.

 

Those are made up phrases haha; I certainly didn't say them. I disagreed with the Joffrey comparison, plain and simple, and gave a solid reasoning for it. I mentioned agreeing with a lot of negative qualities that Anakin possesses (because I do believe he has many) but the majority of that post was explaining why I don't think the Joffrey comparison works. I called the Joffrey comparison "a bit exaggerated lol"...and the "lol" was there because I actually did think it was an actual joke comparison. Turns out it wasn't, but oh well; people are entitled to their opinions, even if I don't agree with them.

Okay I apologize, and I've edited my post to remove that.

 

Well, Kuro did say he'd been "joking", but then went right back to claiming he had "no redeeming qualities in Clones" - so yea, I guess it wasn't necessarily a joke lmao




Anyway yea, it's the "a bit" thing that I took issue with - here's a part of a response I initially was gonna write, before I eventually scrapped it:




_____________________________________________________________________________

A "bit"?

A key difference, but still a "bit" difference - it's not that significant.

I mean one is a sadistic libertine and the other wants to save his wife and prevent civil wars - but saying there's alike is only "a bit exaggerate lol", right?

You don't get the sense that he was enjoying it? Could it have been because he was unambiguously shown as apprehensive and regretful about this whole issue, before the deed, and even crying afterwards?

Is that why you didn't get the sense that he was enjoying it?

Weeell, 9.995/10 is probably an apt description.

So basically he's like Tywin, minus the narcissistic obsession with legacy and status - he'd only kill "innocents" in order to ensure peace, and less deaths, down the line.

This is SLIGHTLY different from Joffrey.

In fact, shows no "sadism" at all.

One wants to be a totalitarian overlord who never gets criticized.
The other one wants more skills (and is frustrated at being held back, which may not be entirely unjustified even), and later gets more sweeping and noble impulses to want to save people.

So this one isn't a "similarity" - off to a great start!

No, not "seriously" - what you just said is huge pile of nonsense.

"Everyone", sure.

Evidence?

Actually both of them possess social skills, they're just often suspended when riled up.

If it weren't for his ability to be regal and charming, Joffrey probably would've been whacked way earlier.

No you're not "sorry", you're going out of your way to exaggerate their similarities to a level of absurdity.

Well, he was quite evil at that point, so I'm sure that effect was intended by the creators

_________________________________________


So yea I saw your post as basically some kind of "well half of those guys you said were Reptiles, actually weren't", so I then wrote "between people arguing there's no corruption in politics and reptilian conspiracists, who's the reasonable party here again?" and included you in the latter group based on your post.

I mean why would I want to concede some amount of Reptilians in the white house, if there are actually none?


Anyway if that's not what you meant or were joking then I guess the issue's resolved now ;-)

 

Still, you're reaching if you thought I was arguing for Anakin=Joffrey. The "a bit" thing is just a way to put my disagreement mildly without being rude.

Yes! That's exactly why haha. And because he was clearly in a mad rage when he did it in AOTC.

Taking pleasure in causing others pain vs. causing others pain for "the greater good" or "personal gain" are two very different things and make for very different characters. And that's my point. No matter how selfish, greedy, or entitled Anakin is, that fact alone is a huge difference in characterization.

Okay, just a simple misinterpretation of my post, no big deal ;-)

 

Well yea looks like I read your "diplomatic tone" as concession, which it turns out it wasn't.

 

I know I'm a bit guilty of that, but in my defense, some arguments are incredibly ridiculous that it's impossible to take them seriously. Usually just extreme outlier arguments. On the plus side, Hawt's response to Cryo dissected in a clean fashion that massive wall of text, making it easier to read and disagree with today! So thank you for that!

And yeah, I think most of us are in agreement that Joffrey =/= Anakin. If I was to compare Anakin to a character from Game of Thrones, I'd choose Dany. She starts out whiny and worthless and eventually becomes this power to be reckoned with. Also, she's taking about 20-30 years to get to the good stuff of a final confrontation!

(Dany is easily one of my favorite characters, btw, when she's not in Season 2.)

 

And past midpoint, Stannis is probably a good comparison (in broad strokes).

 

He was my favorite pick for "who should actually be the new king" until he wasn't. Not because he was likable, but because he was clearly the best suited to running Westeros and unifying it against the real threat. I think he's a very apt comparison for the more "evil for good reasons" type of Sith Lord. Not quite Bane's genius or Sidious' manipulations, but Vader's power for sure.

 

The PT having no heart and soul is just a empty blaket statement that sounds good, until you really think about it and realize there isn't much sense to it. Many of the anti PT arguments are just vague blaketstatements that can be made against nearly anything.

Personnally I found TFA to be pretty shallow and Rey having poor characterization, plus she isn't that hot, pretty plain.

 

It's good to know you're here to discuss the important issues.

"No heart and soul is just an empty blanket statement." (Agreed.)

"TFA is pretty shallow." ( <- Empty blanket statement.)

If only you took your own advice before posting what you did, and making it about a character's looks. Idiot.

Heads up to any and everyone. Name calling will get you banned.

 

That's good to hear. Clearly some people thought the PT didn't lack "heart & soul". If we can't find some of them here in the PT section of a SW fan forum we won't find them anywhere. If your view was held by a large majority in the same way as the audience connected to other trilogies, like TLOTR or the OT then the Prequels would have an entirely different & far more positive reputation.

Not sure that was the problem. The PT is full of OT references & call-backs.

Personally I find that to be a pretty shallow observation.

 

I guess i wasn't really satisfied with my own answer 'cause it's been bubbling away in the back of my head all weekend and finally an answer just popped in there while i was watching a trailer for TFA. In the prequels the characters come off as perfect (emotionally i mean) they have no faults to overcome like starting out only wanting to get paid or facing a super-weapon plus army plus wicked force powers they just try to run away. What i mean is that the characters are human and show it and even Anakin's descent comes off as manipulation rather than a loosening of his own moral values and it's not till the end when Obi Wan has a screaming fit at him that it gives us heart and soul.

also Gamiel Really? i thought it was obvious since she was getting so much screen time, to be honest i've not even thought about it since it was just an instant conclusion.

and darkspine10 yes R2 has just saved the ship and he was thanked for it and he should be cleaned up properly...but not by the queen, and i see where you're coming from with C3PO and i'd never thought of it like that but i still can't get past the conclusion that these things were done not to make the plot interesting but to reinforce to everyone that its star wars which it didn't need.

 

Nice one. There are, hm, some of us, and we're all here.
Speaking of majority, I do not buy that. That's just a cheap trick in an attempt to win a debate. There is a loud, agressive and unstopable group of people that want to impose their opinions as facts. There is basically no topic on these boards that do not take a swing at the PT, there's no video and comments on Youtube (even those TFA related) that do not trash the PT. That doesn't mean we're minority, just that we're more respectful to the saga and it's fans.
I am, however, willing to criticize TFA.