ST What do you think of TLJ 7 years later?

Uncle Owned literally purchases the droids from the Jawas in ANH. 3PO refers to Luke as his master many times. He speaks of his first job programming binary load lifters and his former master.


Did you not see these movies?

That said, the droids do interrupt many times. Han and Leia are quite annoyed by how frequent and loud, and pessimistic 3PO is. They tell him to shut up many times. And even when he malfunctions or is totally torn apart he still retains his memories and information.

As far as the ST goes, it makes no sense that they can't retrieve the important information/map where Luke went from R2, just because he's having a sad in the corner for 6 years. Nobody in the ST really have any relationship with R2 or 3PO. 3PO acts like the ST group are his best friends and we've barely seen a single scene of them together until TROS.

 

Regarding Chewie, I would assume that he is conflicted when it comes to Ben. Yes, he shot him in TFA after Han's fall and if he'd been standing next to the guy, he'd probably have wookieed him into the pit... but at the same time, he is Han's son. He's family. Acknowledging that bond and having Chewie actively involved as a real character would've made more sense for TLJ.

 

That comic from a few years ago show Chewie and Ben's history was more thoughtful than what we got in the ST. It's like the writers forget these two would have known each other.

 

There's two kinds of manipulation in SW.

Palpatine style, where he's subtly and purposefully manipulating the entire galaxy, entire events, and especially Anakin, over time, in order to do his bidding, and increase his power (political or otherwise)

Kylo style: He negs Rey every time he sees her, to the point of being obvious, and tries to lower her self esteem so that she can join him so that his vague and stupid notions of remaking the galaxy, mostly to cover up his own insecurities.

Manipulation is still manipulation even if the manipulator isn't doing it smartly, or perhaps even knowingly. In real life, many manipulators are just scummy narcissists who engage with people in this manner.

 

If RJ did not want to blame Luke, he would have had to cut literally every Mark Hamill scene from the movie #notmyluke

 

Cute, but I don't really view the Han/Kylo Ren scene in TFA as a play, or twist, on the ROTJ storyline as much as you.*In TFA Han is clearly (an poignantly) positioned in the Obi-Wan/ANH, or Qui-Gon/TPM. Han is the mentor shepherding the new generation of heroes on their adventure. Han is the mentor doomed to be killed off so the hero has to go on alone. Rey and Finn are (as Luke was in ANH) observers....who haven't quite yet taken up the mantle of their mentors.

*For sure, the father son dynamic is at play. Yet, the ROTJ dynamic usually involves a trio, a master, an apprentice, a hero and a throne of sorts. I guess what I am saying, is that the ROTJ is usually a three person dance.

If TLJ started with Rey trying to see the good in Ren and trying to get him to turn, I'd see your point. Yet TLJ starts with Rey hating Ren, spitting venom at him, trying to blast him, calling him a monster, and angrily/tearfully questioning why he killed his father/her mentor. Rey is actively learning, training, and evolving in TLJ. It's not until over half way through the movie that Rey begins to question Ren, Luke, and herself. She doesn't just start the film trying to get Kylo to be good...more importantly...she doesn't end the film thinking she can turn Kylo good. In fact, after the throne room scene, she never tries again. Lesson learned.

Again, I think this is a wild misinterpretation. The emotional impact is not ignored. TLJ starts with Rey hating Ren with every fiber of her being. You may not like that she softens her stance on him in the middle of the movie..fair enough**. Yet, TLJ doesn't ignore Rey's feelings about Ren murdering Han. The movie addresses this head on.

**Though I don't agree with you,I can get with your feelings that Rey's characterization in TLJ is incongruent with TFA. I feel the same way with Padme in the PT.

I don't agree. Again, perhaps this notion was cemented in YOUR mind. Yet, I think audiences are much more malleable with this than you seem to be in this regard.

Yes, a **** ton of people hate Kylo Ren for killing off (arguably) the most beloved of all SW characters. I did. I loved to hate Kylo Ren.
Yet, just as many SW fans went different directions. Some went the complete and opposite way and became Reylos. While this (Twighlight-esque?) branch of fandom is a bit baffling to me, it speaks to the fact that all of SW fandom doesn't necessarily share your opinion/view on this aspect of the film/characters.

Your argument is that Kylo Ren isn't good at manipulating Rey. My argument is that he is trying to manipulate her for 2.5 of the ST films. He doesn't have to be effective at it in order to be an *******/villain for trying.

I don't know about your definition of "cunning", but this lie brings Rey to tears. Manipulative.

Hmm. Seems like faux empathy to me. Again, manipulative.

He's pretty much on the nose with this one.
Again. I have to disagree with you. Kylo Ren tries to manipulate Rey at almost every turn. I'm not sure why you don't see this behavior as manipulative.

Agree mostly. I think Luke and Anakin are both "softer" in the beginning than Rey (if that makes sense). She's already got a protective shell as she is on her own. Yet, I think she has a lot of insecurities and doubt inside. I think she has excellent instincts for (as you say) survival and fighting. Yet, she is in many way emotionally stunted/insecure....essentially orphaned at a young age. She has her guard up emotionally. Right? She is almost amazed that Finn and Han would come to rescue her.

See, I disagree with this. In many instances, Rey is very assertive for a lot of TLJ. I mean, she's overly combative to Luke for many fan's taste. Yet, Rey also doesn't know jack squat about is "the Force" and her new abilities and what it all means.

When it comes to her new abilites and The Force...Rey is new to all of this, unsure of herself, and looking for answers. Yes, Rey is a badass fighter, scavenger, survivor. Yet, she is out of her depth with the Jedi stuff. She's looking for help. It makes sense that Rey comes off as more vulnerable, naive, or "not assertive" in some regard because she (as she admits) is in over her head and quite lost when it comes to The Force/Jedi/Dark Side, etc. I see it as evolution where you see it as mischaracterization or regression. Yep, I get why it's maddening for you that she could be naive, over eager, optimistic...but it makes sense to me.

Your a teacher, right? I am too. You've never had a student that was quite brilliant in some regards and totally out of touch and blind in other ways?

 

Rey is gullible. Every time someone tells her something, she just immediately accepts it. 100%. No doubt.

Maz: Your family is long gone and never coming back. But there's something else who can help.
Rey: Okay

Luke: Kylo attacked me.
Rey: That's horrible. He's a monster.

Kylo: He didn't tell you did he. He attacked me a sleeping innocent boy dreaming of killing classmates.
Rey: That's horrible. Luke is a monster.

Luke: Ok, so yeah I almost was gonna. But I didn't I feel ashamed.
Rey: I won't fail you.

Kylo: You're just a nobody
Rey: Sniffle. I know.

Leia: We have everything we need now.
Rey: You're so right.
Luke: I've been dead 2 minutes!!!!

Kylo: You're a Palpatine, here's your grandpa. He's back!
Rey: OMG I'm evil now.

Luke: We always knew you were a Palpatine but just didn't tell ya. Go kill him for us.
Rey: Okay.

Rey: I'm Rey. Rey Skywalker.
Old Lady who knows nothing: Okay.

 

Yeah, it would have been better if they made Rey smart and a bit suspicious / non-gullible.

Say Rey always knew she was a Palpatine. A dark family secret that her parents told her to never tell anyone. She hasn't seen them since they ditched her on Jakku and assumes their long dead. Rey doesn't trust anyone and doesn't get close enough for anyone to find out that she's the granddaughter of the former Emperor. She lives out in the dunes, far away from anyone.

In TFA this all a big secret. Whenever asked, she just says "Rey, just Rey". We don't know who she is. Rey doesn't even know she has the Force. Her parents never told her that part. Kylo tries to find out who she is, but she's able to block his mind probe and then reads his mind and his fears. She becomes confused and scared.

In TLJ, she meets Luke. Luke can sense that she's holding a secret and refuses to train her. At the cave, Luke and the audience find out the truth at last. Rey is Palpatine's granddaughter. She's the heir of the Empire. Luke tells her to leave but Rey begs for help. Luke meditates and speaks to his father. We don't see Anakin, just hear his voice. He reminds Luke that he wasn't evil just because his father was. You saw the good in me. There's good in her too. Luke tells him that he failed as a teacher and doesn't want fail her. Anakin tells him something inspiring.

We flash to Snoke who orders Kylo to connect with Rey and find out where she and Luke are.

Luke begins to train Rey. They bond. Luke explains how he failed his students once before and hasn't forgiven himself. Rey says that she's always been alone and how she really wants to have a family again.

We flash back to Kylo who isn't able to connect. Snoke berates him about being weak and Kylo loses it and murders him and the P-Guard. He becomes the Supreme Leader.

Back to Luke and Rey. More training. Maybe at this point Kylo is force-chatting with Rey. He tells her how Luke tried to murder him but she doesn't believe his lies. He tries to bond with her over how alone they both are. She wants him out but can't seem to control it. Luke teaches her how to do this, in the same way he hid for years.

Instead of rushing off to save Kylo, maybe Luke feels Leia injured and in the coma. They both fly off to Crait. Luke takes on the FO, while Rey tries to protect Leia and the Resistance. Kylo finds Rey. He tells her that he's the master now, and knows how powerful she is and that he can train her. He can still tell something is off about her and demands Who are you?!. Rey doesn't speak. And then Kylo whispers .. "Palpatine? Your his granddaughter. You're the HEIR to the empire". He tries to ignite his saber but Rey force grabs it. They struggle. Kylo shouts how he won't let anyone take what is rightfully his. He vows to destroy her.

There's an explosion. Kylo is injured. Rey escapes back to the Resistance. And since we're going for broke here, screw it... Luke is still alive and with Leia who is still in a coma. The Resistance is safe and flying off.

In TROS ... Snoke isn't a clone. And Palpatine doesn't return. His return is in his granddaughter Rey. That is the potential threat. Making sure Rey stays on the right path. This is her story. Not his, or Ben's.

 

You are selling Star Wars mirroring short by stating only one parallel can be at play at one time.
The setup is a direct mirror of TPM and ANH, yes, but it is also importantly an inversion of ROTJ.

- Leia speaks to her brother regarding redeeming their evil father - “Luke, run away! Run far away. If he can sense your presence then leave this place.”
She doesn’t hold Luke’s optimism.
/
Leia speaks to her husband regarding redeeming their evil son - “There is light him, I know it. … If you see our son, bring him home.”
Her optimism is what inspires Han to try, and where she told Luke to run away (“Why must you confront him?”) she implores Han to confront their fallen son.

- While on a mission for the Rebellion the good son must confront the evil father.
/
While on a Resistance mission the good father must confront the evil son.

- Luke tries to appeal to Vader’s sentimentality and conflict. Vader: “It is too late for me son.”
But it isn’t too late.
/
Han tries to appeal to Kylo’s sentimentality and conflict. Kylo: “It’s too late.”
And, per TFA, it is too late.

- The dark father ultimately saves the good son’s life in defiance of his evil master, and is redeemed, entering Jedi “heaven”. Luke becomes a Jedi.
/
The dark son kills the good father in cold blood in service to his evil master, and dooms himself as beyond saving (per JJ’s original intent). Sealed as a villain and further down the dark path. Han dies unfulfilled.

- Unmasking: “The face of my son!” “Your son is gone!”
/
Unmasking: “Let me look on you with my own eyes.” “You were right about me.”

- The father tries to bring his misguided son back the light - symbolised by the sun shining down on their walkway through a door above, past observing allies Rey and Finn - and for a moment it looks like he may take the offer. But the sun drains, the room is shrouded in darkness and a red hue, and Kylo murders Han.
Simultaneously, the evil weapon that doomed the New Republic is fully powered.
/
The son continuously tries to bring his misguided father back to the light, seemingly to no avail - as they fight and the Rebellion is seemingly doomed, the Emperor observes down on them from in front of a window to the battle outside.
At the last moment Vader is reached, he saves Luke’s life and kills the Emperor. Returned to the light, inversely the blue hue as Anakin is unmasked vs the darkness and redness on Kylo’s face when the mask was misleadingly taken off him.
The super weapon is then destroyed before the Rebellion and hope for the establishment of a New Republic are doomed by it.

Granted, the TFA situation will then flip back to the destruction of the bad guys superweapon (ANH and ROTJ) and the Jedi hero defeating their nemesis in a duel (ROTJ).
Rey’s “The force?” moment as Rey is about to defeat Kylo is also an ANH parallel with “Use the force” as Luke destroys the Deathstar.

 

Family really doesn't matter to you at all, huh? While TLJ has a superficial callback to RotJ's throne room scene, there's way less substance between Rey and Kylo than between a father and son clashing, with the question of whether their familial relationship will lead to a happy or tragic ending. In RotJ Luke is trying to distract Vader from the Rebels and hoping there really was something to those stories he heard growing up, and if not, well, they'll possibly all be blown up by the Rebel fleet anyway.

In TFA, Han risks his life to reach out to his son, saying his family is still waiting with open arms and is killed for it.

In TLJ, after a few hours of conversation and seeing him without a shirt on, then a vision from the director, er, the Force, Rey misunderstands that Kylo doesn't want to turn back, that he really is evil, doesn't want to save the galaxy and still wants his mother dead. And after all that she still lets him keep his lightsaber so he can go on killing people. Its more like a romcom than a tragedy (such as Han's death).

And continuing on that point, in relation to something you said earlier-

Your premise is flawed. Ok, not everyone viewed Kylo as irredeemable after TFA (I remember all the theories after TFA and well before TLJ). However, also not everyone thinks Vader was "10 times the baddie" either. Quantity aside (since Vader and the Empire ruled the galaxy much longer than Kylo and the First Order), as well as strength and competence too (since Vader's way smarter than Kylo ever could be), in terms of evil I'd say Kylo was worse, especially since he was more childish and unstable than Vader. And even before TRoS, it sure sounded like Kylo had a better life than Anakin, suffered less, was raised by Leia, Han and Luke, and should've known how Vader's story ended and didn't have Palpatine as a friendly uncle/grandpa for years, yet somehow Kylo turned out far worse, without any heroic deeds that we know of.

And there's that whole murdering his father on-screen too. So while its not everyone, to a lot of people after TFA Kylo already comes off worse than Vader, so TLJ retreading that ground felt like a waste of time. Or do their opinions not count?

And then there's the different response to Kylo's crimes in TFA and TLJ. Chewie understandably shoots Kylo for killing Han (and would've kept shooting if stormtroopers hadn't shown up). Rey just gives him a disappointed look, after she leaves the ship rather than deal with Kylo in person? Oh, that's definitely the way to treat the big bad, that'll show him.

The finale of RotJ wasn't just a master, apprentice and hero, it was also a father and son, of the son nearly repeating his father's mistakes but instead learning from them, remembering what his teachers taught him, then serving as an example for his father to finally give up on evil. TLJ is a bad joke compared to that (whoops, so Rey's not going to join Kylo in oppressing the galaxy), and TFA at least did go all in with Kylo actually killing Han and treating it as a dark moment. TLJ doesn't even bother with that, instead having Snoke's body fall over as a joke right after that. Well, that is how seriously TLJ treats Star Wars' story (as in not at all).

 

I think the problem overall with the idea of subversion with Vader And Kylo is that it really requires you to believe Vader has been restrained as a villain compared to Kylo. Like Vader saving Luke was his decision to not go down the bad path. But the problem with that obviously is that at what point is it ok to say Vader can go to Jedi heaven? Because he decided after a little while, being in pretty bad shape afted his beating might i add, to save his son from being fried? Would Vader be seen as redeemable if you realised and remembered the stuff he has done during that scene?

Thing with anakin, and it had nothing to do with being a slave. He seemed to hunger for being better than everyone else. He thought of himself as special and as Vader that did not go away. He even more so wanted to show he was more powerful then any jedi. Which is why he hunted everyone of them down personally. He had alot of negative selfish traits.

I feel like if this was a sequel trilogy type deal, we would never be able to look past who Vader was and what he did. He would be unredeemable and there would be people who wouldn't buy or want him turning back to the light. There would also be this thing where people would hold Vaders words in Empire of join me in being evil! against him in ROTJ for being a unnatural shift.

 

The whole emotional significance of Vader’s redemption and death is because we know all the bad things he’s done. Some people like to complain that they can’t sympathize with him after seeing the younglings but we always knew he’d slaughtered kids in his day

 

But there are indeed fans who don’t buy that Vader deserves redemption. It works for me personally because it is a symbolic and mythical thing, not a case of “evening the scales”.

The problem with Kylo is unlike Vader, Kylo is offered a chance back in both TFA and TLJ, and refuses these two chances, while we are never given his reason for being so intent on staying evil. We don’t know why he turned. So when you get to TROS it’s pretty redundant and underwhelming, as much as I liked seeing Ben Solo as sort of a “what if Anakin turned back pre-suit before it was too late” scenario.

 

But Vader also refused a dozen times to turn back. At this point you just go yeah but we knew Luke would turn him back so you don't really hold it against hjm. The expectation with Kylo is that he is consistant with his actions. While Vader is never consistant

 

We don't really know anything about Kylo. He says he wants to kill the past, which seems mostly out of resentment for Luke and his parents, but he has taken up with the Sith playbook almost exactly. I guess he wants to rule the galaxy, but he's not really a respectable leader, even by his own subordinates. And he can't even control himself, much less an entire FO or galaxy. Vader may have been disrespected by higher ups, mostly for his devotion to some ancient religion, but he was quick to force choke a joker to remind who had real power, and he always had complete command of the troops.

Vader's personality and desires are a twisted version of the ones Anakin had. We're told upfront that Anakin was a great Jedi, the best pilot and ... importantly, a good friend. Obi-wan clearly misses his old student. We're also told that he was seduced by the dark side, by power, by the Emperor. We are told that the dark side is the quick and easy path, and Luke's impatience can lead to him falling to the dark side just like Vader. We can infer that Vader wanted more power, more quickly, probably out of an initial desire to do good. Just as Luke was feeling. And that the Emperor probably baited him into that desire.

Anakin always wanted to help people, and wanted to bring about a sense of justice, even if he needed break the rules in order to so. He defied Qui-gon even in TPM, and he defied Obi-wan in AOTC, and later Mace in ROTS. He ultimately defied the Force as well. Part of this fall to the dark side involved his attachments, his fear over losing those he loved most, which became obsessions. He couldn't allow things to transpire as they should on their own. He couldn't let things be free to fall, or die, as they may. He needed to save people at all cost. That cost, became the dark side. And that's what the Empire eventually does as well. He, and the Empire, both sought absolute control over the galaxy. it could not allow the galaxy, or all the beings in it, to live freely. And that's what the Rebellion represented and fought.

We're told nothing about Kylo, or what he was like when he was Ben. In fact, if anything we're told be was bad even as a kid. His parents miss him and want him back. but what parents wouldn't. If anything his family seems sad and spent dealing with him. Han mentions that he had too much of Anakin's evil in him from the start. We don't know why he fell to the dark side. Other than Snoke getting to him, to use him for his power, we don't know much about Kylo or Ben. But given his actions, it doesn't seem to be for the same one's that made Anakin fall. Kylo's road to the dark side wasn't paved with good intentions. In fact, this isn't even the quick and easy path, since its taken him 6 years and he still hasn't completed his training by Snoke. If anything, he's killing his family and committing genocide to prove just how evil he wants to be.

And thus, when Kylo does go back to the good side, we have no idea really WHY. He just changes because he hears mom's dying voice, and has a chat with his imagination. That is after Rey revives his wounds. But so what. What does that really have to do with anything about Ben. The ST doesn't give us enough info to even begin to guess.

 

I never thought Kylo was intended to come off as a “sadist and a creep”, and I think that difference in interpretation is a big part of our disagreements. I always thought Kylo’s “archetype” was more like what you claim Johnson retconned in, a villain intended to have some sympathetic backstory. I don’t think it was ever anyone’s intention to make the son of Han and Leia a creepy pervert who’s role in the story is purely to disturb the audience


And on shipping, I think it’s incredibly reductive to say shippers inherently are not analyzing or paying attention to canon. Some shippers don’t care about consistency with the source but that’s not always true. And it’s no reason to dismiss other people’s interpretations of a work

 

Mind probing her and telling her he can take whatever he wants, and then walking around shirtless after she's complained about it and knows its bothering her is ... creep city.

 

Only because you’ve got it into your head that he had “other reasons” for doing that. From the perspective of me watching a Star Wars movie expecting Star Wars fare such thoughts weren’t even on my mind

 

No my reasons are him saying I can take whatever I want, from her, while she is strapped to a chair. Even in SW land, that is creepy.

AND. He meant to be scary and creepy.

This is also creepy. Kylo just looks creepy haf the time. He's a sociopath.