What if George Lucas Hates Fanfiction?

copyright law and fan fic

Interesting series of FAQs...

Personally, I still think this Robin whaternoodle is just a bratty self centered moo cow, and I for one won't bother to support her in anyway - if I develope a brain fever and want to read her books, I'll grab one from the library of a used book store.

 

As somebody who witnessed the massive purging of fanfic and other websites by various stuidos in the late 90s to 2000: Paramount, WB, Fox, cheifly, issuing countless C&D orders against fansites of all types; from ST and Buffy, and X - Files, to yes, even Harry Potter, I was a little timid to even begin to start writing fanfic at first a few years ago, for fear of somebody coming after me for copyright infringement. And the MPAA has started doing C&D claiming they have copyright of their ratings system!

Sometimes that never goes away.

 

It would be sad if GL hated fan fiction, because all the fans that write fics really love Star Wars, truly and deeply. For me, this is just a hobby. I'm not looking to get published or steal somebody elses characters. I know I'm not great, but I feel closer to other fans when I read their stuff and when people read my stuff, too.

It's a fan activity, just like playing a Star Wars video game or playing with the toys

 

I don't think there is fanfiction for authors/artists who aren't well established and popular, and artists like Lukas can't be worried about fanfics ruining their image because thei are untouchable.

 

I haven't posted in fanfiction for a long time for personal reasons, but I felt a need to reply to this topic. First, before I lose myself in the whole issue, I wanted to respond to Juliet's comment above about the MPAA. That's a trademark issue, I believe, more than a copyright one, and they do have legal right to it.

My perspective is that fanfiction falls under fair use of material that's in the public arena. I won't say that an author ought to feel flattered, though I certainly would be. They're entitled to their opinions, we're entitled to ours, and everyone's got a basis for their thoughts, however wrong we might consider them to be.

For another side to the fanfic issue where Star Wars is concerned, and this goes to Robin's definitions of fanfiction, there are a great many purists on the JC alone that consider profic in the EU to be nothing more than fanfiction, and I've seen people say that they consider our fanfic here to be on the same level as far as telling the story as profic in the EU.

To refer to Breezy's link on the previous page, there's a section about fanfic and the first amendment freedom of speech, and in that there's a comment about how Free speech and copyright come into conflict. Now, in the Constitution, there is mention of property rights, I believe (though at the moment, I couldn't tell you where). And intellectual property rights legislation, which covers copyright law, falls under that. But, 9 times out of ten, unless the fanfic author is attempting to make money off his or her work, free speech rights will be held above, because they've become such an integral part of the body of law in the US.

Also, to quote from the same link, on the issue of fair use:

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

1 - no one here is making money off of fanfiction, so it's not for commercial use.
2 - I can't say much about because I don't know exactly what they mean
3 - There is so much to SW, and what each individual fanfic writer tends to play with is such a small portion of it in comparison to the entire broad universe that I can't imagine this consideration going against fanficcers
4 - the effect of SW fanfic on GL's bottom line is huge - and entirely in his favor. It generates interest and publicity, and sales. For example, I had very little interest in the prequels til I came to the JC, which was entirely through fanfic. And how many of us have bought additional books, be they novels or encyclopedias or other resource books, for the purpose of writing?

And on the actual thread topic of GL - he's not going to do a damned thing about fanfiction. He's not thrilled with it - especially AU and slash - but to crack down on fanfic would piss off so many people as to not make it worth it for him. And he wouldn't get a penny from most people, and he has to know that. It's just not worth it for him to do a thing.

On the issue of slash, I personally would say you have to treat slash (in most instances, as there are undoubtedly pairings that could be argued as just as canon as some het pairings ) would be as with any other alternate universe fics. Slash fics are no different than Han/Mara fics. And while Robin seems to take particular offense to fiction that alters what she's written, i don't think AUs are any worse than canon fanfic.

My two (or twenty) credits...

 

Hmm, that was an interesting FAQ on copyright. I didn't get through the whole thing, but it is an interesting question. I'm a philosophy major, and my main area of interest lies in aesthetics, so this sort of question comes up a lot. I hadn't thought of it in reference to fan fiction, though. A derivative work, using something recognizable to the masses to make a point, can be incredibly powerful. I mean, I can see why it upsets some people, especially if the artist happens to be alive... I'm not being terribly coherent, but the point I think I'm trying to make is that even if we don't like the way something is used doesn't mean we can't appreciate it for what it is. I had a professor tell me that the words "I don't like it" are the least useful in a conversation. To properly evaluate something, you need to get past what you like and don't like, to see what it actually is. All she's seeing is someone messing with the Precious, and saying "Hands off, thou annoying person."

Hmm. I shall have to ponder the artistic status of fan fiction for a while now. Darn you all, I have a paper to write on something else at the moment...

 

I suppose that, with fan fiction out there, that a fanfic writer could sue the author if say, Harry Potter 7 just happens to match a story the fan ficcer wrote on a website. It would be easier for an author to have her legal representative go after those websites than to prove later on that she didn't read that fan fic.


This is a fan fic site, of course, and everyone is pro-fan fic. Many have stated reasons why they think fan fiction is good: adds to pro-fic revenue, harmless fun, helps create better writers, it's actually the highest form of flattery, etc.

But to play devil's advocate, look at this way. Let's say you've spent several months - or one month during NaNoWriMo - writing a fan story. You spent hours coming up with plots, even created a few really awesome originial characters. You post the story and your readers love it. And then, what if you woke up one morning, clicked on the fan fic boards, and found that someone had taken your story without asking and played with it? Even some of dialogue is taken, word for word. Perhaps your storyline is copied as well, nearly plot point by plot point, but altered only slightly so that the ending is AU, now the way this new author prefers the ending. Your original characters are off doing things you never dreamed they'd do. And this new version of your story, posted without your permission - heck, even a warning PM - gets lots of admirers.

Viewing it from that perspective, I can see how some authors might get a little cranky about fan fic.

 

As long I was mentioned in the author's notes or disclaimer, I'd have no problem with it at all. That's the important thing, and if someone used my characters or locations and had a note saying "The planet in chapter 3 was created by AlisonC" or whatever, I'd be thrilled, especially if they got lots of admiration! It increases the chance that those readers would take a look at the "source" and maybe I'd get more readers as well.

I think it's extremely unlikely for a fanfic writer to become more popular than the original canon creator, anyway, so all those admirers of the derivative are already admirers of the original, and it's not taking anything away. This is less true of fans borrowing personal fanon from each other, but in any case - credit and all should be well.

 

In a case like this, it would depend on two things: how much of the original story is copied, and what board the respective stories are posted on. (Some places even have rules stating you can't use OCs created by another author without their permission.) I know the boards I'm familiar with (this one, KotOR Fan Media, FF.net) crack down on people who copy other people's 'fics without the other person's consent. Contacting whoever runs the board with a PM should help to resolve things.

As AlisonC stated, as long as one is credited or permission is requested, there shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

Well, that falls under direct plagerism - or close to it, and here on the boards fan fic plagerism will earn you a three month vacation (and it happens to even the most 'popular' authors). Claiming it's a AU, even right off the bat isn't going to cover your ass, and most plagerist won't even credit the original work from where they've nicked the OCs...

 

Yep, plagerism will earn you a vacation.

As for Mr. Lucas and fan fiction, he probably realizes that fan fic (like fan films) is usually a form of flattery and that it keeps our interest in his galaxy alive. I don't think I would spend nearly as much money on his stuff if it weren't for fan fiction, so while my husband would be grateful I think George would notice a drop in his profits. Seriously, when you consider what all of us combined spend worhshipping at his altar, it adds up.

 

On the quote plagiarism - is it okay to copy small amounts of dialogue (i.e. lines from the movies or novels) if properly credited to the owner and, if applicable, the writer, when a scene is rewritten or characters are passing through a scene that canonically happened? I have a part in one story where about 4-5 lines of dialogue are copied (from a novel, not another fanfic writer), but credit is given to the original writer for them.

 

As long as you give credit, so far in fan fiction we've not had a problem with that. I've used a line of dialogue from the ROTS novel and gave credit, so I hope it's okay!

 

I've had a few people borrow my OCs (and they were gracious enough to both ask me and credit me) and I find it a real joy to see that my characters have touched people enough to want to include them in thier universe - as long as they remeber that as many people can't envision Obi-Wan into guys, neither can I see 'Gris' (an OC who mostly shows up in an early story and then after as a memory - her name shows up as an 'oh ****' moment in my current fic) into them either!

However, AU is AU... and such is life for characters who capter a writer's imagination!

I like the "Paul Bunyan" alagory applied to Star Wars... George told a story about a larger thanlife arctype, and people ran with it-

Though I would liken George to Johnny Appleseed - throwing out tales to create a new forest of thier own...

 

Uh, wow, everyone has been so eloquent and passionate in the defense of fanfic that I don't know what to say.

I love fanfic? I love lamp?

Yeah, so, anyways, I guess I'll just say this. One of the things I appreciate most about fanfic is the community it brings together. I mean, just look at us--the same people who have had passionate arguments with each other over various topics--and you can see the thing that binds us all together: a love for Star Wars, and a love for fanfiction. Even an author as opposed to fanfic as Robin Hobb would be hard-pressed to look at us and accuse us of wanting to ruin the Star Wars universe. We're here, and we write here, because Star Wars is bigger in our eyes than a set of six movies and some published expansion novels/comics/video games. It has somehow broke into our lives and become a part of us at a deep, inextricable level. Fanfiction isn't an attempt to destroy the universe--it's our attempt to express how meaningful it is to us.

I read an article about a year ago for one of my linguistics classes, and something the author said has stuck with me since (even though I lost the article!). He was talking about the so-called "decline" of the English language in the United States, and he gave an analogy to support his claim that English wasn't actually declining, an analogy that I've found to be incredibly wise and succinct. The analogy is basketball, and I will do my best to paraphrase from memory what he said even though I know it's not verbatim but close enough to be considered plagiarism if I don't make it clear that this is not my analogy or idea, but the author's:

Imagine that we lived in a country where the only people who could play basketball were a couple hundred NBA stars. They play extremely well and we would of course be able to appreciate their skill and grace as players. Now imagine a country more like ours right now, where you can almost hear the stuttered echoes of missed shots and balls dribbling off feet in a thousand playgrounds. Would you say that the state of basketball has declined because they aren't professional?

I like this, mainly because I'm a zealous opponent of linguistic stasis, but also because it says something that can apply to us fanfiction writers, too. There are maybe a few dozen professional Star Wars writers, and (discarding any judgement on the quality of their respective works) they are professionals, plain and simple. They are talented and experienced and get paid.

Enter the rest of us, who aren't professional Star Wars writers. We write because we love it, apart from any monetary motivations. I know I'm never going to be a published Star Wars author, but that won't sway me from wanting to write. Why? Because it's not about money, or about notoriety, or about some sort of self-image I want to maintain. For me, it's because I'm in love with writing, and I'm in love with Star Wars, and the best way I can express that is by writing, and by writing Star Wars.

I play basketball, too, and I'm pretty lousy. I still watch the NBA (sometimes) and religiously follow college ball (go 'Cats!), but it's when I'm on the court, running, sweating, putting up shots, sometimes dribbling off my foot, that I really know that I love basketball. It's fun to watch the good professional players do things that I will never be able to do, but there is some pure and visceral reverence for the sport that fills me when I'm actually playing. A lot of other athletes can, I think, identify with this--the sport at its purest is free of distractions, free of video cameras and advertisements and half-naked cheerleaders and contracts and endorsements and fame.

Bringing it all back to fanfiction, then... I think it's interesting to ponder the similarities between the two situations (as well as the differences). I think that fanfiction writers can often be more faithful to the Star Wars universe than the professional writers are. The fact is that things like deadlines and preset plot points and, well, money can be a little distracting. I don't mean to denounce

 

Grabbing onto the cake mix analogy real quick - what master chef made cakes from scratch right from the beginning? Pre-mixes help you learn if you like to bake and might be a good cook someday. They are great practice and a stepping stone for beginners.

I don't blame authors (and Lucas) if they don't like fanfiction because I can understand how it would feel if somebody else messed with 'your' world. They did create it, it is thier sandbox. The serious fanfic writers probably wouldn't be too big an annoyance but you have to admit, there is alot of crap out there.

Overall, I think fanfiction is a good thing but tears shouldn't be shed if toys get run over.

EDIT: That crap fanfic comment wasn't meant to hit first attempts, I understand the gradual improvement process At least fanficcers have the beginner's learning curve for an excuse. There is at least as much crappy profic out there in Star Wars and those authors have NO excuse.

 

What if George Lucas hates fanfiction? I don't know and don't care. I can name about a dosen fic authors off the top of my head who are better writers than some of the EU authors. We don't make any money off of it and we're keeping the fandom going.

 

I approach this issue from two different perspectives. On one side, I am a fan fiction writer and the other, I'm a musician. I'll be the first to say that very few concepts are actually original. Edward Van Halen didn't pull his finger tapping technique out of thin air. Other guitarists were doing it long before him. The difference is that "Eruption" just happens to be mind blowing and other guitarists were influenced by Van Halen to do finger tapping. Heavy guitars are nothing new and playing in drop d tuning certainly wasn't some inovation of the grunge era.

Musicians and writers all have influences. Musicians can at least get the rights to songs and put their own interpretation of a song on a single or as a bonus track. Or we can just have fun and cover it live or while we're practicing. I may not be Geezer Butler or Geddy Lee, but I do find some enjoyment playing their work on bass.

My approach to fan fiction is pretty much the same. Sure, I write original material. It doesn't stop me from going into something where I can actually "publish" a work on the net and get a feel for my writing style. With original works, publication on the net is just a bad idea. Fan fiction provides a bit of freedom in that regard because even if someone does steal your work, they're never going to make a cent off it unless they want Uncle George to sue them.

 

Speaking for myself, I have no interest in rewriting someone else's story, even one I think could have been done better. Though Ms. Hobbs strikes me as someone who is slightly paranoid about others sullying and exploiting her creative vision, she does at least make one valid point: it takes far more skill to write you own story than it does to rewrite someone else's. That being said, I believe that the GFFA is such a vast place that one could write a completely original story without stepping on anyone's toes. I myself am working on a piece of SW fanfic, and it is a completely original story set just after The Unifying Force. Though I may include brief references to established characters, I do not use them or attempt to alter them in any way to suit my own vision. All of my characters are completely original -- and I wouldn't have it any other way. GL may have invented Star Wars, and I respect his rights as an artist in that regard. But as long as he doesn't officially condemn us for writing fiction based on his creation, keep typing! I know I will.


Btw, here is a list of things I consider we as fanfic authors should abide by -- a "code of ethics" if you will:

1. State clearly and unequivocally that your story is NOT officially sanctioned or endorsed by Lucasfilm, and that absolutely no profits have been or will be made from the work.

2. Clearly acknowledge GL's ownership of the "Star Wars" license.

3. Be respectful of established norms. In other words, try to keep your fanfic's tone in the spirit of Star Wars; i.e., no bizarre relationships or activities among the characters that might be considered defaming. Show your love for SW; don't dirty or cheapen it.

4. Be original wherever you can. There's more than enough room for original stories in the GFFA! Let's show Ms. Hobbs and others like her that fanfic doesn't have to be cheap and derivative.

5. Have fun!

 

What do you think we are doing? Just because we use arctype characters and settings doesn't make most of fan fiction original. George borrowed heavily from "Hidden Fortress' and a dozen other filmakers (as do many others do today). Raymond Chandler - his characters have appeared in a dozen and one pulp detective novels, George Stark, a CHARACTER in A Stephen King book (The Dark Half) is now a pulp novelist.

When They do it it's called an Homage, when fan ficcers do it, it's called being uncreative.

1. State clearly and unequivocally that your story is NOT officially sanctioned or endorsed by Lucasfilm, and that absolutely no profits have been or will be made from the work.

2. Clearly acknowledge GL's ownership of the "Star Wars" license.

That could be sumed up in the usual simple disclaimer. We shouldn't feel the need to write a three page 'party of the first part' contract.

3. Be respectful of established norms. In other words, try to keep your fanfic's tone in the spirit of Star Wars; i.e., no bizarre relationships or activities among the characters that might be considered defaming. Show your love for SW; don't dirty or cheapen it.

This is the one that boiled my pudding.

Who's to dictate what makes a 'bizzare / defaming realtionship?' I happen to think Obi-Dalas would fall under that catagory. I HATE them! Clearly George never ment for their to be even an IMPLIED LOVE TrIANGLE - He never even considered it!!11 Not ONCE11! SO Let's tie the hands of everyone who might even write something that might deviate or cheapen\Teh LOVE STOTRY...

Oh right... this is fan fiction... as in people expressing their creativity...

4. Be original wherever you can. There's more than enough room for original stories in the GFFA! Let's show Ms. Hobbs and others like her that fanfic doesn't have to be cheap and derivative.

There we go again, Cheap and derivative. I find this high handed attitude utterly offensive. I was half joking about my stance on "Obi-Dala", I actually really don't care for it, but who am I to tell another author what to write? I don't really care for 'canon character slash', (Qui-bi-Wans, Obi-Kins, Jar-Bi-Wans) but I've been wrong before (see Jedi Rita's works over at another site - even if you don't care for slash, you can find some of her other work which is amazing too). Ultimately, If I don't care for a style or a 'plot', I simply will move on... that goes for Any type of story, fan written or other wise. To each their own, writing or reading wise.

5. Have fun!

This is the ONLY part of your list I agree with, and as far as 'Ms Hobbs' goes, I stand by my assertion that she'll never get a penny from me, all my 'free money' goes to authors I have respect for.

 

What do you think we are doing? Just because we use arctype characters and settings doesn't make most of fan fiction original.

I meant that, although we are writing in a world of someone else's devising, it is still possible to expand on that creation by writing characters and situations that didn't exist before. I use the term "original" loosely here.

That could be sumed up in the usual simple disclaimer. We shouldn't feel the need to write a three page 'party of the first part' contract.

I admit this particular point is redundant and rather obvious; I included it merely for the sake of completeness.

Who's to dictate what makes a 'bizzare / defaming realtionship?' I happen to think Obi-Dalas would fall under that catagory. I HATE them! Clearly George never ment for their to be even an IMPLIED LOVE TrIANGLE - He never even considered it!!11 Not ONCE11! SO Let's tie the hands of everyone who might even write something that might deviate or cheapen\Teh LOVE STOTRY...

By "bizarre or defaming" relationships, I'm talking about ones that radically deviate from established norms. For instance, I would consider a homosexual relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan to be defaming. Even if I didn't find such a thing to be offensive on moral grounds, there is no basis for such a relationship between those characters, and would not be in keeping with what we know of them.

There we go again, Cheap and derivative. I find this high handed attitude utterly offensive. I was half joking about my stance on "Obi-Dala", I actually really don't care for it, but who am I to tell another author what to write? I don't really care for 'canon character slash', (Qui-bi-Wans, Obi-Kins, Jar-Bi-Wans) but I've been wrong before (see Jedi Rita's works over at another site - even if you don't care for slash, you can find some of her other work which is amazing too). Ultimately, If I don't care for a style or a 'plot', I simply will move on... that goes for Any type of story, fan written or other wise. To each their own, writing or reading wise.

I'm not being "high handed" here. There ARE many cheap fanfics in which the "authors" are seeking not to enrich the SW universe, but to exploit it. I realize that all fanfiction is, by definition, derivative, but that doesn't mean it should be brought down into the gutter by people who would like to see a Jaina/Tahiri/Alema threesome in the Millenium Falcon's bunk room.

Besides, I was referring more to Ms. Hobbs implied assertion that all fanfic was cheap and derivative.

 

Many "strange" pairings can work in AU. Meaning, the characters are not together in canon, and the way canon events unfold, they won't be - but, had events been different, it's quite possible that they would have been. They might have personalities that are somehow compatible, or there is a certain external barrier to their relationship that can be removed in AU to make it work.

I'll admit, I write pairings just for the hell of it sometimes. And I don't care - they're always clearly labeled, and those who don't like them can choose not to read them. But on ones that could work were it not for canon plots - then what's wrong with an AU that explores the characters in a different situation?

We'll leave slash out of it and focus on male/female pairings for this. Obviously the creators did not mean, to use an example, for Anakin Solo and Tahiri to be together in the long run. Is it wrong to write them together in an AU that takes place after Star By Star? The external event that keeps them apart here is Anakin's early death. I see no difference between this and any other non-canon pairing (okay, so they ARE canon - they're not a canon couple for any fic set after Star By Star unless it's a dream sequence or memory fic!)

To classify pairings as possible/reasonable and impossible/unreasonable isn't really valid because much of it depends on the fic writer's skill and knowledge of the characters, and some of it is the reader's perception. Some are just much harder to make believable than others. It's on a spectrum, not an either/or. For the most part, whether a couple is canon or not is defined, but there are many non-canon relationships that crop up in fanfic and are accepted; often the only quantifiable difference between these and rarer pairings that might be labeled as bizarre is popularity.

And I don't think it's actually easier to write a story in one's own created world than within another - particularly when it's not AU. Many of the characters are established figures and the plots are laid out. It's more difficult, IMHO, to craft a story that keeps a reader's interest without breaking the continuity of what is already known about the world and the people involved. Some of the element of surprise is lost and it's that much more challenging to make an independent story that shines. You're essentially working with tons of spoilers out in the open by default.

 

Then the simple answer is DON'T READ IT

And Who's 'Moral Ground" should apply to fan fiction anyway? I mean, as I said there are a LOT of pairings I don't care for - I simply don't go looking for them.


I'm not being "high handed" here. There ARE many cheap fanfics in which the "authors" are seeking not to enrich the SW universe, but to exploit it. I realize that all fanfiction is, by definition, derivative, but that doesn't mean it should be brought down into the gutter by people who would like to see a Jaina/Tahiri/Alema threesome in the Millenium Falcon's bunk room.


You're being hypocritical here; first you say "I'm not being high handed (and therefore judemental) yet in the same breath you consider somone who writes a 'threesome fic' "down into the gutter"

I wrote a chapter that involved two cannon characters and two OC's that was effectivly very much in the vein of what you would consider "Gutter fic". When i wrote it, it was about the ultmate expression of love between freinds, especially those that can 'share' an experiance. It was defiantely a challange to write... but I did it because it was intrigal to the story. Te each their own.

Besides, I was referring more to Ms.Hobbs implied assertion that all fanfic was cheap and derivative.

And yet...


Here at TF.N we are bound by certain restrictions, but there are as many fan fiction sites out there to match ANY tastes, one man's meat and all... but I ABHORE it when a person takes it on themselves to try to say what is 'cheap'...

 

So I can't make any assertions about anything because someone, somewhere, might be offended if I do?

 

You can opine all you want, however, just be prepared to understand that OTHER People may disagree with you velmently, and what you consider 'Perverting' a character is someone elses idea of exersising thier creativity.

I don't like a lot of PWP fics over all, but I don't think anyone has a right to tell other people what's 'Trash' or 'defamation' of a particular character.