CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

I would never assume that Phantom Menace is the universal entry point of Star Wars watchers.

Yes, you eventually figure out that this is supposed to be Luke's dad. But only after going "huh?", which of course ruins the entire scene. It is not a long scene, after all.

A small child watching the movie may not understand it at all.

 

When I see that scene I see it from Luke's POV who always wanted to know his father. I just empathize with Luke's POV more. Older Anakin seems more fatherly to me. And then we see an older Anakin who returned from hell who reunites with Obi-Wan and Yoda. Those years happened but Anakin got his soul purified. Older Anakin just seems more poignant to me. I can empathize with young Hayden but not as much. It takes away from the growth that Anakin/Vader did in the OT imo.

Though I could work with a 46 or so year old Hayden. As long as he knows that he is doing a scene!

 

Or you can watch the movies in this order (Machete order):

1) Episode IV
2) Episode V
3) Episode I (if you don't horribly hate the movie)
4) Episode II
5) Episode III
6) Episode VI

On my side, I think it's the good way to watch the SW movies for the first time, neither in their release order, nor in their chronological order, since I've not watched these movies in neither of those two orders.

 

The point is as Lucas said, he wanted it to be Anakin before he became evil. That's why he didn't have Hayden in old man makeup. He wanted to take it further than where he had left it. The origins of Anakin's ghost was that he was originally going to return to life, whole and hale from where he had left off. Though obviously aged. Lucas dropped that idea as he felt that diminished the evil acts he committed. Then Howard Kazanjian convinced him to go ahead and have Anakin as a ghost only and so Lucas went with that. When working on the 04 DVD's, he came to the conclusion that he wanted a younger Anakin in place of the older. He had wanted to take it further by showing how much Anakin had been lost when he became Vader.

For the shot in which Luke Skywalker sees his father appear as a spirit in the company of Yoda and Obi-Wan, Hayden Christensen has been inserted in place of Sebastian Shaw. Following a brief discussion, Lucas confirms that he does not want to age Christensen, explaining that Anakin has reverted to who he was when he went over to the dark side."

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

"[Hayden in ROTJ] was added because it was a way of finishing off the series. The idea was that [Anakin's] inner person would go back to where we left off when it turned to the dark side -- when [Anakin] got burned up and everything, but before [he] got burned up. So when [he] comes back to the good side of the Force, that it's [his] FORMER PERSONA that survives NOT the DARTH VADER PERSONA."

--George Lucas AOL interview, 2005.

This becomes more of the good man who was your father was destroyed. The book where Fader quoted from was published in 05, thus would account the 04 DVD.

Why? That was the point Lucas made years ago.

"It'll be a very different experience, because when Darth Vader walks into that spaceship with the princess, they're going to think, 'Oh my God, that's Anakin!' and they're gonna see Luke and think, 'Oh my God, that's his son!' And rather than a surprise when he says, 'I am your father,' it'll be like, 'Oh my God, finally he's told him!'"

--George Lucas, Guardian Unlimited.

"If you see them in order it completely twists things about. A lot of the tricks of IV, V and VI no longer exist. The real struggle of the twins to save their father becomes apparent, whereas it didn't exist at all the first time [audiences saw Episodes IV, V and VI]. Now Darth Vader is a tragic character who's lost everything. He's basically a bitter old man in a suit.

"I am your father" was a real shock. Now it's a real reward. Finally, the son knows what we already know.

Its a really different suspense structure. Part of the fun for me was completely flipping upside down the dramatic track of the original movies. If you watch them the way it was released, IV, V, VI, I, II, III - you get one kind of movie. If you watch I through VI you get a completely different movie. One or two generations have seen it one way, and the next generations will see it in a completely different way.

It's an extremely modern, almost interactive movie making. You take blocks and move them around, and you come out with different emotional states."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

Not to mention what Darth_Articulate just started this week.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...the-first-time.50007208/page-14#post-52399731

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/motion-...cial-series-with-a-first-viewing-of-star-wars

Drew McWeeny showed the films to his kids. You might want to read that.

 

A small child wouldn't understand the underlying concepts of teenage rebellion and coming of age that the OT strongly presents to audiences either. Part of growing up with Star Wars, for me, was coming of age with the films. Every time I watched them I had become a little more mature, and was able to understand the themes of the OT a little better.

 

I don't get showing Phantom Menace first. With anything you want to start out showing the best, and Menace is not that by a longshot. Star Wars is a much stronger starting point, as it was made first and explains the fundamentals the PT just assume you know.

 

Like I explained, the scene is not just ruined for kids, it is ruined for all first-time viewers because they have that "Huh, who's that dude?" moment in their head and then the scene is over.

 

when I was a kid watching ROTJ I never had trouble understanding that that was supposed to be Anakin. I mean it's at Anakin's funeral and everything.

I understand the viewpoint that it should be young Anakin because that's what he looked like before being corrupted by the dark side. but his "last moment" as Anakin Skywalker wasn't in ROTJ, it was when he was looking into Luke's eyes as an older man. and let's be real; the "Anakin ceased to exist and was consumed by Darth Vader" thing is just Obi-Wan and Anakin's coping method. he was still Anakin that whole time. both perspectives can make sense, but given how out of place it is just aesthetically and in context with the whole series (woah PT just copied in so realistic lol) I'd prefer older Anakin. not only that, but it's much more powerful because it shows how much time has passed. showing younger Anakin is like "things are just like they were before" while showing older Anakin is more like "things are way different; a lot of time has passed, and now Anakin is older and wiser after everything that has happened".

 

Agree. Only difference with Hayden from the PT to ROTJ scene is that he has Jedi Robes and not what he had in AOTC and ROTS. Why did he have different robes/whatever anyway? Make him different on purpose? Just not as poignant as older Anakin who went through hell and came back.

 

And how did you react to the scene? Did you feel happy and sad at the same time, because you sympathized with Luke and Anakin?

I also want to mention that not everyone has the same reaction, of course, or lack of.

 

yeah I thought it was cool Luke succeeded and I've always symapthised with the tragic heroes. maybe Star Wars is why.

though tbh when I was a kid I was just always fascinated by the mystery behind Vader and always wanted to know what he looked like so I was just kind of like "cool"..

 

And yet, as Darth_Articulate posted, the friend of his enjoyed TPM. In fact, I'll quote what he said she said.

It can be just as easily liked by newcomers who are in the dark about the Saga. It can also be viewed by people who have some idea, but never watched a film in their life.

https://www.reddit.com/user/ABrilliantFool/submitted/

If the child is dumber than a box of rocks, they're going to conclude that it is Anakin as a younger man.

 

The main problem a lot of older fans have (not me but I completely understand) is that we older fans were used to seeing Sebastian Shaw's face in ROTJ during the ending. Suddenly, it's replaced by Hayden Christensen's face, it's also rather odd because Hayden never wore those Jedi robes in the prequels, so it's a weird inconsistency. This edit is the one other edit I actually remember besides "Yub Nub" having the music replaced and the extra scenes from the other planets being added.

Vader screaming "No!" for me doesn't count, because I have the 2004 DVDs and not the new Blu-Ray that has more edits.

 

This is a tricky issue. To me, it makes sense that the person's "force spirit" would appear like they did in the physical prime of their life--not what they looked like at the moment of their death. However, this wouldn't really work ESB or RotJ, as we the audience knew Obi-Wan as played by Alec Guiness, and Yoda as the wizened Jedi--we wouldn't relate to different versions of those characters, and the emotion comes from seeing the characters as we know them. The Hayden Ghost, though I don't really have a problem with it, seems a bit out of place because we never saw him interact with the Guiness Obi-Wan, and the Shaw Ghost looked like he could be a contemporary of Obi-Wan (I know that the actor was considerably older than Guiness).

 

I personally prefer Shaw, for the same reasons others have stated in this thread.

That said, I have a bit of fun with young Anakin ghost taking his place. I imagine he's energetic and somewhat restless, being a younger ghost as he is, and that he's a thorn in Obi-Wan's side for all eternity. In my head, Obi-Wan's days are divided between convincing Anakin not to bother Luke and Leia constantly, and indulging him as he reminisces about the good old days. "Hey, Obi-Wan, remember that time we...."

Silly, I know! But it's how I make the best out of a change that I otherwise don't care for.

 

I can't find anything wrong. Besides, if Hayden Christensen was too young, wasn't Shaw a bit too old - at age 78 - to be portraying Anakin's force ghost?

 

On a little side note today is Sebastian Shaws birthday.

 

But "Too old" Shaw is still in the film so the problem still remains. Plus you now also have "Too young" Hayden and the film is not consistent with itself or with the other OT films.

So how is this an improvement?

And how can the cheap, lazy and not very respectful way this was done be ok?
Using footage from a costume fitting, doing a cut/paste job and on top of that, not even telling Hayden about it.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Samuel Vimes you stole my thunder there with talk of ages. Good post.

 

"Too Old" Shaw makes perfect sense within the story. Look at how old Sidious looks at the end (or how he looked in Episode 2). All of those years of living in that mechanical suit in addition to using the dark side will age someone much quicker than a normal person. That's not a problem in any way.

 

Only in the physical realm. Lucas felt that when we saw him as a ghost, he should be healthy and whole. He decided that he should be younger, because that is the taint of the dark side and the physical damage of Vader. Taking it back to the good man that he was before he became evil.

 

That takes away from the growth he gained from the OT imo. ROTJ Anakin learned what PT Anakin couldn't and or wouldn't. And good man before he became evil? Back to when he killed the Tusken Raiders and the Jedi? Doesn't really make sense to me but if it does to others so be it. Might as well be TPM Anakin. Maybe he learned to accept his PT era actions but since it was during the OT, older Anakin is the only one who makes sense imo.

 

I get what Lucas was trying to do, but it just doesn't work for me aesthetically. You have an elderly Ben,Yoda who looks downright ancient at this point, and Anakin who looks younger than his own son! I like Hayden and all,but he really sticks out in a bad way there. I prefer Shaw.

 

Having Anakin just change robes isn't enough of a change for me.
While it was good to see him again (I suppose) it makes me question if he really learned from the OT experience. Shaw makes me feel like the OT happened and that he has learned from it.

 

Obi-Wan looked like Ewan McGregor in his prime and Yoda was CGI in his, so why weren't they replaced?