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CT What Sort of Villain is Lord Vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by SateleNovelist11, Jan 31, 2022.

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What type is Lord Vader?

  1. Lawful Evil

    26 vote(s)
    68.4%
  2. Neutral Evil

    6 vote(s)
    15.8%
  3. Chaotic Evil

    3 vote(s)
    7.9%
  4. Lawful Neutral

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. True Neutral

    1 vote(s)
    2.6%
  6. Chaotic Neutral

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
  1. ThereseAn'ya1994

    ThereseAn'ya1994 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2023
    I vote "Lawful Evil". In his own helmet, he's Lawful Neutral.. Bae, your fascination with EVIL! Darth Heckin Vader! Darth Zannah's gonna be jelly tonight! :vader:[face_alien][face_pumpkin]
     
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  2. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Well, in my defense, hun, the guy is weird as the pit itself. You blame Lucas and Luceno. I'm just glad Ahsoka was added to the mix.

    As for this whole Classic Trilogy angle, I think that Anakin and Luke are the best characters. Only Leia comes close. Leia just wasn't given enough to do. In my world, Leia would have worked with Luke to redeem Vader. I'm talking Dark Empire. Imagine if Leia and Luke combined their powers through love. Just picture it. They could be a force for Anakin to come out of the darkness that is Vader. I mean, in Dark Empire, they deal with crusty Sidious and Sidious, while endlessly intriguing in his own right (his powers), is a spoiled sociopath, and the older I get, the more I wonder why the guy has any fans. Vader did some terrible crap, but he has the potential as a Sith and Jedi that Sidious envied so much.
     
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  3. ThereseAn'ya1994

    ThereseAn'ya1994 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2023
    The easy answer is that Sidious has fans for 1) it's fun to pretend to be bad guys, 2) bullied people like villains and 3) troubled peeps go fanboy for a Disney villain like Darth Sidious. He fits right in with Ursula and Scar. Darth Vader is more serious. He is grounded in humanity. Sidious is a pure villain.

    Am I right?? Zannah and Lumiya are gonna be jealous huh? [face_skull]
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2023
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  4. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    In all frankness, I know a different Dark Lady of the Sith with fair hair who has convinced me that the full power of the dark side will avail me. I enjoy her arcane lore on Korriban. She's a greater gymnast than Lord Zannah.

    As to Vader, do you think he is chaotically lawful evil as some have suggested?
     
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  5. ThereseAn'ya1994

    ThereseAn'ya1994 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2023
    Korriban's sand is gonna be glass real soon. We will hijack that ship and bring Fett's hide to Nar Shadda first tho. [face_thinking]@};-:D

    Nah I don't like the alignments being mixed like that. Vader in the Lucas O.G. Trilogy is lawful evil. He goes off on Piett's co-workers..but he wants control, power. There's something more behind that. It's misguided energy..vampiric..like a dying star. Palpatine is the neutral evil one. But holy moly does he need a tailor in the latter movies imho.
     
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  6. Biel Ductavis

    Biel Ductavis Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Think Palps in Dark Empire as well as in TROS became more of a chaotic evil guy.

    Gesendet von meinem Nokia G22 mit Tapatalk
     
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  7. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    The Deathstar did also centralise power more, we don't really know what Palpatines plan for the originalw as in the OT but in ROTJ I think it seems like he intends to rule from the second Deathstar with that throne room. An expanded fleet would have more potential for rebellion which I think is always a weakness when you have loyalty though fear as Palpatine and Vader seemed to depend on.

    Vader seemed like he was perhaps a little less dependant on that? we don't see Palpatine killing underlings in the OT I spose but Vader states his "less forgiving" than him. Vader does also seem to only punish direct incompetence, he doesnt kill Piett when the Falcon escapes in ESB because its genuinely not his fault were as Ozzel was killed for personal errors.
     
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  8. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    We do know that Vader had a meditation chamber in both Death Stars. I wonder if there was a throne room tower on the first Death Star.
     
  9. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Do we actually know Lucas's plan for the Emperor when the original film was made? Granted I don't think the novelisation should be taken as Lucas's view either but he may have potentially veiwed him as less all powerful at that point and perhaps not even a force user, the idea of emperors having to share power or even being under the power of governers/generals like Tarkin obviously has a historical basis.

    I think you could definitely argue Vader was "somewhat" less evil than people like Tarkin and Motti in ANH in that he's not the one actively pushing to use the DS although of course he does nothing to stop them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2023
  10. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    The novelization actually does reflect Lucas' original intent. Lucas changed his mind and transformed the Emperor both into a Force-wielding Sith Master and a political manipulator around the same time that he decided that Vader would not be the killer of Luke's father but Luke's actual father.
     
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  11. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Is that the case? I seem to remember hearing there was some invention by the writer on that topic but perhaps informed by Lucas?

    It does seem we get a bit of a switch in Vader between ESB and ROTJ as well, the former he seemed to be looking to overthrown the emperor whilst in the latter he was very much under his control. Although I spose Vader does say that the Emperor has forseen that Luke will ovethrown him and I think that would play into the idea that both of them actually "serve" the darkside more.

    Its never really stated clearly but stuff like that or the Emperor telling Luke to kill him plus the general tone of ROTJ did always give the impression to me that it wasnt just evil individuals Luke was in conflict with it was the darkside itself which was working though them.
     
  12. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Since IronLord isn't available. Here is the answer to your question.



     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2023
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  13. ThereseAn'ya1994

    ThereseAn'ya1994 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2023
    Palpatine could have worked as that kind of villain too. But it's good that we got him like this. He's a perfect villain for like a fairy tale or modern day myth.
     
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  14. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I might go with Neutral Evil, have Grandma Tarkin as Lawful, and Plapy as Chaotic.
     
  15. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I agree. McDiarmid deserves more credit for the voice in particular. I like both subtle Palpy and hammy Palpy. The latter is easy to imitate for talent shows and the former is good prep for proper stage acting.

    I agree with you on, Internets, on Tarkin being lawful evil. But some Palpatine fans on here don't like it when he's called chaotic at all. They compare him with Plagueis and think he's just as rational as him when he wasn't. Palpatine actually made more mistakes than his diehard would acknowledge. But if you want to be cynical about it, the Force was with Palpatine in the prequels. It just wasn't with him during the classic trilogy. That's why the Force is neither good nor evil.

    Vader is, indeed, neutral evil in TESB. But in ANH, he's lawful evil. Of course, Vader is more complicated than Sidious. So, it depends on which story we're analyzing. He is mostly lawful evil, I'd argue, but I'd be interested to hear your case for it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2023
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  16. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015


    I remember when I first watched this in the mid-1990s, I found to be a formidable enemy. So, who's the better pilot? Vader or Han?
     
  17. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I voted Sand-averse Evil.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2024
  18. ThereseAn'ya1994

    ThereseAn'ya1994 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2023
    Vader is that kind of menace. To answer your question tho I would have to say Han is better than Vader..at least from what I remember. His piloting in Empire Strikes Back was really impressive.
     
  19. Darth Vectivus

    Darth Vectivus Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 2023
    Vader is a terrible villain who could be redeemed Palpatine on the other hand he was truly irredeemable i believe that if Luke had not existed, Darth Vader would have continued to be a villain, only Luke could save him because he was Padme's son
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2024
  20. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Vader is the sort of villain who will stand in front of his young subordinates and talk about sensing things while they're thinking "Act normally, it's all fine. He's just taken some spice. The Emperor's on top of it, I'm sure."
     
  21. MaverickJedi85

    MaverickJedi85 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2019
    Chaotic neutral; sees chaos/decadence in the Republic system and then in the Imperial system. That makes him "Lawful narcissist".
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024