Which is stronger the light side or the dark side

yoda does tap into the darkside...if you read shatterpoint, it states that he does from time to time, to sense the future

 

Yeah, it's also in the AOTC novelization as well.

The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen, so the only way the Jedi can use their gift of foresight is to peer through the Dark Side.

Let me see if I can find that quote.

AOTC, hardcover edition, pp. 75-76.

"'Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?' Mace pondered, shaking his head. 'This should have been no surprise to the wary, and easy for us to predict.'

'Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force,' Yoda replied. The diminuitive Jedi seemed tired.

Mace understood well the source of that weariness. 'The prophecy is coming true. The dark side is growing.'

'And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future,' Yoda said. 'Only by probing the dark side can we see.'

Mace spent a moment digesting that remark, for what Yoda referred to was no small thing. Not at all. Journeys to the edges of the dark side were not to be taken lightly. Even more dire, the fact that Master Yoda believed that the disturbance all the Jedi had sensed in the Force was so entrenched in the dark side was truly foreboding."

 

By from what I have seen in both sides, I think that the Darkside is more powerful. Atleast more then that of the Lightside. However, I also have to be careful since I belong to the "Lightsiders[/color", No?

 

I suppose it would surprise some hear a Sith Lord say that the light side of the Force is stronger, but there it is.


Isurus the White

 

I see your points,but let me remind some that the outcome of ROTJ was beating imposible odds.Kind of like a fun joke between the force itself.So lets pit father against son and see what happens.Love is more powerfull than anything.So that wasnt very fair for Lord Vader.One thing is been able to defeat a sith lord and another is making him go insane by killing his own blood.I absolutely love that movie but as a rationate human being I say the darkside is stronger by its nature itself.Obiwan tapped into it just before the duel with Darth Maul and you can see it just before he enters to figth how jumpy and emotional he was.I think thats what kept him alive enougth time to get back on track and focus.Luke tapped into it too just after Vader discovered,mentioned her sister.And Anakim himself when facing Dooku which i belive has some good still left inside him.I know Jedi life is a pure one,probably the best way to go if youre a clerigal person,but dont underestimate the power of the dark side and in fairness acknowledge it is STRONGER.Dont rely on the outcome of the movie.The wise ones know there is no end to the dark side It will always resurface,itself is inmortal.Just temporary peace.And peace is highly overrated.So if you feel the ligh side is better for you thats nice.Many say there is one force so the power is equal.So do the math and divide the force between the jedi on the light and sith on the dark. Jedis are too many so the force of them as individuals is a LOT LESS.Even death they keep using it as force ghosts.AOTC made us see that a simple student was even in the force as his former master.(DOOKU VS JODA) And Dooku himself was pale in comparition with his new master.So there is no mystery about it.The dark side is stronger.

 

DarthMaulsBigBro Just a request: could you please not type everything up in one huge paragraph? It makes it difficult to read, at least for my tired eyes.

The Dark Side appears to give more personal power, that's definitely true.

I wonder if DS users/the Sith become One with the Force when they die. I'm thinking not.

And this would better explain Obi-Wan's line "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

 

well good>evil....so light side>dark side.....oh, and lets remember that the Jedi Army of Light had decisivley beaten the Brotherhood of Darkness in the Sith Wars...the sith are beaten in open war and resort to scheming, they then take out a doting jedi order after 1000 yrs of apparent extinction, and while this order had unbelievable skilled warriors, ie mace windu and yoda...

they just werent enough great and powerful jedi to offset the great plans of sidious, palpatine came to power by his plans, not by his strength in the force.,,,


I think we all know what would happen to our good buddy palps if he strode into the High Council chamber and whipped out his sabre...yeah lightside wins

 

GARTH MAUL I will take your advice on my posts.

Its a lot easier for people to understand me if i am brief and to the point.

I say the dark side is stronger in physical terms,But mastery of the force takes years and jedis are for the most part more experienced and old.

Sith have many issues to resolve that keep them young in the most part.(as in killed young)But with enough experience gained a sith lord is unstopable.Even stoping and killing one resulted deadly for Vader.

I am expecting to see some huge power from the dark side that will open some minds.wha,ha,ha,ha!!!

 

The light sight is stronger than the dark side, unfortunately, the human free will is often weaker than the light side, and the dark side prevailed briefly when Anakin chose the Dark Side.

 

Simply put:


Luke Skywalker: "...IS the darkside stronger???"


Jedi Master Yoda: "No..No...NO...Quicker-easier-more seductive."

Who can argue with Master Yoda???????

 

Both are equally powerful but it's human nature that makes the Dark Side more powerful (also notice how most of the darksiders are human or humanoid).

 

What if the Force is a whole and it is only personal approach and application of the Force that makes it seem like a light side and a dark side?

 

>>>>What if the Force is a whole and it is only personal approach and application of the Force that makes it seem like a light side and a dark side?

Here's how I see it;

The Force is a whole- this is how the Jedi view it, and this is why they *never* mention or allude to a "light side" in any of the films...

The Jedi use it's powers in order to serve it's Will- they treat it as an ally. This is why they have the whole "forbidden attachment" thing going on- so that they don't get distracted from their lifelong commitment to serve the Force by their own wishes and desires (exactly the same reason that monks take vows of celibacy and poverty.)

The Dark Side is merely a part of the Force- an attitude towards it, of using the Force as a tool, to do whatever you want with.

A result of the Jedi's self-restrictive attitude is that they are effectively forbidding themselves from accessing the full power of the Force- for example, "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence- never for attack." The Sith have no such restraint.

This is illustrated in the Yoda vs Dooku fight;
Dooku uses telekenesis to throw things at Yoda, which he catches and tosses harmlessly aside.
He then pulls the ceiling down- even though gravity is on Dooku's side, Yoda still has no problem catching and throwing aside the rocks.
He then shoots Yoda with lightning- Yoda deflects it straight back at Dooku. Dooku deflects it wildly into the ceiling.
Dooku then shoots it at Yoda again- Yoda catches it and dissipates it.

Every single action shows Yoda as being more skilful, or more powerful- but because he uses this power passively instead of aggressively, the battle is a stalemate.

Now, imagine if Yoda encountered someone just as strong and skilful with the Force as he is, but who was perfectly willing to use the Force to attack. Without the advantage that he demonstrated in the fight with Dooku, how could he possibly win?

That is why the Dark Side is more powerful than the Jedi philosophy- but the Dark Side is only a part of the Force- the part cannot be greater than the whole, which is why Yoda's statement in ESB is also true.

 

But isn't the whole point there that the Dark Side ISN'T stronger?

Dooku says "even more powerful than you, Yoda."

Yoda says "much to learn, you still have."

I thought the point was that the Dark Side is only effective if it "infects" the Light Side user and gets them off balance - thus the insults and attacks on confidence and fear.

But Yoda showed that a perfectly balanced Jedi, at peace, should be impossible to defeat.

That's why I'm praying that Lucas makes Obi-Wan ultra-defensive in The Duel in Episode III and THAT is why he wins - because it drives Anakin crazy that he can't get a shot in, and Obi-Wan won't retaliate.

Obi-Wan is supposed to be the Ultimate Jedi Knight, so he should act like it in Episode III - Luke only became a Jedi Knight when he threw his lightsaber away.

Otherwise the Dark Side DOES seem stronger.

But Yoda says the Jedi feels the Force most strongly when one is calm and at peace "Let the Force flow through you."

Whereas the Dark Side seems "forcing" the Force to do your will, rather than letting it guide your actions.

 

This a hard question but I read one book where a character who was a Jedi was using both sides. I think that he was a shadow Jedi. He used both forces to help and harm others. The last one was when he needed to be angry.

Well, I think that both forces are little equal, but the Sith uses to harm their enemies and cause some pain and the Jedis uses to help others. I am not so sure if I give the right answer.

Is the way I see this question.

 

>>>>I thought the point was that the Dark Side is only effective if it "infects" the Light Side user and gets them off balance - thus the insults and attacks on confidence and fear.

Well, I think that's more an attempt to get them fighting "on their turf"- to unsettle the Jedi so that they are no longer doing the "passive, at peace" thing and start coming closer to the Dark Side- which is where the Sith's mastery lies.

If you're a master at one form of fighting and your opponent is a master of another, then you try to get them fighting in your own style. Look at Jango vs Obi Wan- Obi Wan wants to get in close and kick/punch/lightsaber Jango, while Jango tries to get some distance and shoot/burn/blow up Obi Wan. Or Dooku vs Anakin- they style of their fight has "Dooku" written all over it. It's far more obvious the first time they "fight", but Dooku draws him in, calls the shots and wins both rounds.

>>>>But Yoda showed that a perfectly balanced Jedi, at peace, should be impossible to defeat.

Possibly- but I think this was because of his superior skill and mastery more than anything.

Imagine what would happen if Yoda were fighting someone equally as skilled/powerful as he was, but who didn't have the self-restrictive attitude that Yoda has. What if he were fighting someone who wasn't just able to deflect or absorb lightning (as Yoda was) but was also willing to create it. I don't see how, in that scenario, Yoda could possibly defeat his dark-side equivalent.

I think it's safe to assume that all Force-lightning isn't equal. What would happen if a more powerful Sith were to use Force-lightning on Yoda. Would he necessarily still be able to block/deflect/absorb it?

>>>>That's why I'm praying that Lucas makes Obi-Wan ultra-defensive in The Duel in Episode III and THAT is why he wins - because it drives Anakin crazy that he can't get a shot in, and Obi-Wan won't retaliate.

It's an interesting idea, but if Obi Wan doesn't retaliate, how is he going to cause Anakin's injuries?
I suppose Anakin could be forced into taking a "bad step", but I can't imagine that accounting for all his injuries.

 

I think that Dooku WAS supposed to be the equal of Yoda in the Hangar Duel scene.

 

^^Then Lucas botched the duel

 

I'm in the camp that doesn't really feel there are two distinct Forces, rather one Force and diffrent ways to use it. This is why I like the phrase "dark path" better than dark side of the force.

The dark side puts no restrictions on what one uses the force for while the Jedi have very specific rules and beliefs about when/how the Force should be used.

If they are using the same Force, one cannot be stonger than the other, but the lack of restrictions on the user who follows the dark path gives them the advantage, at least in the short term. (quicker). It takes away the restraint, patience and self control of the Jedi path (easier)and is for the person who wants power without responsability (more seductive).

 

Here's a thought:

can you become One with the Force after you die if you're a Sith? I would guess not.

Otherwise, how does "if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" make sense?

EDIT: Before the PT came out, I would agree that it appears that there is only one Force, and it depends how we use it.

But especially AOTC makes comment on the Dark Side apart from any individual's use of the Force one way or the other:

"Our ability to use the Force is diminishing"

"The Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen"

"The Dark Side has clouded their vision, my friend."

These lines seem to make the Dark Side a distinct thing.

Comments?

 

Agreed, I'll admit my interpretation of things is based mainly on the OT, and in fact seems to contradict things GL himself has said.

But it could be a question of semantics, if you take the phrase Dark Side to be a discription of those who follow the dark path, those quotes could still be referring to a single Force. Kinda like it is the name of the team, the Dark Side clouds everything = those who follow the dark path are interfering with our use of Force.


But, like the run-on sentences above, its open for interpretation.

 

>>>I think that Dooku WAS supposed to be the equal of Yoda in the Hangar Duel scene.

Well, look at what's going on;
-Dooku shoots lightning at Yoda, which Yoda deflects straight back at him. Dooku can only deflect it wildly at the ceiling.
-Dooku shoots lightning again, but Yoda simply catches it and absorbs it.

Yoda seems to be easily the most powerful/skillful there.

-Then Dooku starts throwing bits of metal at Yoda, which he "catches" and tosses aside. Then Dooku pulls down the ceiling, which Yoda again catches and tosses aside (with gravity helping Dooku at this point.)
Again, Yoda seems to be the most powerful.

-Then the lightsaber duel- Yoda is all over Dooku. When they lock blades, it's Yoda who pushes Dooku's blade away.

-At the end of the match, Dooku has to create a diversion and make his escape- he knows he's beaten.

I don't see anything there indicating that Dooku is Yoda's equal- merely that Yoda is able to block/defend against all of Dooku's attacks. But we never see Yoda really launch an attack of his own.


>>>>Here's a thought:

can you become One with the Force after you die if you're a Sith? I would guess not.

Otherwise, how does "if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" make sense?

I agree. I think this is an example of why the Jedi philosophy is more powerful- although it lacks in personal power because of it's restrictive attitude, where the Dark Side is all about getting as much power for yourself as possible, this Jedi skill is about giving yourself entirely to the Force. For a Sith like Vader, who is only interested in the power of the Force in terms of what he can do with it, the idea of becoming powerful by choosing to "die" is something he couldn't possibly imagine. Not harnessing the full power of the Force, but becoming one with it.


>>>>EDIT: Before the PT came out, I would agree that it appears that there is only one Force, and it depends how we use it.

But especially AOTC makes comment on the Dark Side apart from any individual's use of the Force one way or the other:

"Our ability to use the Force is diminishing"
"The Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen"
"The Dark Side has clouded their vision, my friend."
These lines seem to make the Dark Side a distinct thing.
Comments?

Here's how I see it;
The Jedi philosophy is all about following and serving the Force- using it's power only to carry out it's Will.
The Dark Side is about ignoring it's Will, and just using it's power for whatever you want to use it for.

The Jedi philosophy doesn't disturb the natural balance of the Force- but the Dark Side does.

Imagine if a Jedi looks into the future and sees something (say, Han shooting Greedo.)
Then a Sith does the same, and decides he doesn't like it, and wants to change it. So he goes over, and has a word with Greedo. As a result of this interference, Greedo has a twitchy trigger finger and shoots first.

So what the Jedi thought he knew about the future now isn't as true;
The Sith's use of the Dark Side (using the Force for his own ends has diminished the Jedi's ability to use the Force to see the future. The Dark Side has clouded his vision.

(Of course, it's possible that, like the clones, the Jedi might not find out that they were wrong. "hard to see, the Dark Side is...")

>>>>Agreed, I'll admit my interpretation of things is based mainly on the OT, and in fact seems to contradict things GL himself has said.

I'm curious- what has GL said that contradicts it?

 

Excellent points [b}Scott[/b], but I still think it's doesn't jive with the above lines from AOTC.

The Jedi CANNOT see the future except by penetrating the Shroud of the Dark Side - which means using the Dark Side. Their foresight is gone.

So either

(a) the Dark Side IS a "separate" type of the Force/a use of the Force that has entity/antithetical to the Will of the Force; or

(b) it is the Will of the Force that the Jedi cannot use their foresight.

 

I'm curious- what has GL said that contradicts it?

I thought in the past couple years he specifically siad that there are two sides of the Force adn that the Dark Side is growing stronger.

I'm probably wrong, usually am.

 

>>>>Excellent points Scott, but I still think it's doesn't jive with the above lines from AOTC.

The Jedi CANNOT see the future except by penetrating the Shroud of the Dark Side - which means using the Dark Side. Their foresight is gone.

Well, I think that the best illustration/metaphor for what's going on is the Jedi Archives subplot in AOTC;

The Jedi are utterly confident that what they know through the Force is 100% correct.
Likewise, they are utterly confident that what they know from their archives is 100% correct. ("If it does not appear in our records, it does not exist!")

Then you've got Kamino being deleted from the archives- "only a Jedi could have deleted the records", and the Dark Side of the Force clouding their vision (I think it's safe to say that only someone trained in the Jedi Arts could be using the Dark Side.)

When they discover that the Archives are missing one single planet, it means that they can't trust anything in them anymore, because they don't know what else has been tampered with.
Likewise, when the Jedi discover that a clone army has been created, they realise that they simply cannot trust anything that they "know" from the Force anymore. They can still "see" things (such as Yoda sensing Anakin's pain on Tatooine), but they know that just because they can't "see" something, it doesn't mean it's not there.

Also, look at the scene with the younglings from that perspective; it takes the mind of a child to point out the obvious- that the Archives aren't perfect. Compared to the "older, more experienced Jedi" (Although it seems that Yoda was using that as a lesson...)

"Gravity's sillhouette remains"- this is a very peculiar choice of words to use, unless there is a reason for it (I think the technically correct term would be gravity's footprint)- it is possible to "see" Kamino in the archives, but it has become "hard to see." Is this "sillhouette" an analogy for the "shroud of the Dark Side"?

I think that what Yoda is saying is that those who have caused the "disturbance" in the first place really know what's going on- that because the Force is now out of balance, the Sith now have a significant advantage over the Jedi. Or it could be that only those who have a mastery of the Dark Side- ie. those skilled enough to identify the "sillhouette", and know where to look, will be able to see past the "shroud."

To be honest, since that concept of "only those who use the Dark Side to see past it" was dropped from the film (I don't read the novelisations etc. so I don't know what made it in there), all I have to go on is a few snippets of quotes from old spy reports (I was as spoiler-free as possible for AOTC- and Episode III), so I haven't really given it a great deal of thought...

>>>>So either

(a) the Dark Side IS a "separate" type of the Force/a use of the Force that has entity/antithetical to the Will of the Force; or

(b) it is the Will of the Force that the Jedi cannot use their foresight.

I don't think that (a) is any more true than saying "my mind is a seperate 'me' from my body"- I think that the Dark Side is simply an aspect of the Force that the Jedi try to avoid, and the Sith embrace.
(b) just doesn't gel with me at all. If the Force could control who could use/control it, then there would be no need for a Chosen One, as the Emperor would never have his powers in the first place.


>>>I thought in the past couple years he specifically siad that there are two sides of the Force adn that the Dark Side is growing stronger.

I'm probably wrong, usually am.

Well, there's two sides to my body, but I've still only got one body...

I agree with your "one Force" point of view. The only thing that bugs me is the idea of a "light side" of the Force; I think the Jedi embrace the Force as a whole- Yoda's description of it as an "ally" certainly implies a two way relationship, but the Sith only see it as a tool- what it can do for them. Which obviously ties into what Lucas has said about symbiotic relationships a