ST Who's The Baddie?

Sidious just got another vote today.

 

I've always thought this as well. There may very well be an ethereal element of the story, but that would be independent of Lucas's quote, which I believe meant exactly what you say it did.

 

You posted this a ways back, and I agree, for the most part. Thing is I'd much rather see a group that has some connection in Star Wars already like the Mandalorians. A new group to me screams Yuzah Vong or whatever they were -- just out of the blue. A new group like Black Sun has more interest to me personally, albeit EU, was one of the cooler things that I read although Xizor was far too powerful IMO.

 

Keep them separate, close this one, and do a 2nd poll in a few months to see if opinions have changed (maybe only include the options that got the most votes here).

 

It makes the most narrative sense to kill Luke. With him around the new heroes, and even Han and Leia, will always have the great Jedi Master to bail them out. He should go by 7, and no later than 8. Obi-Wan's death was perfectly time in ANH. Much better, imo, than Qui-Gon's. Mainly because the loss of Obi-Wan at that moment was so much more devastating to Luke than it was for Obi. Obi had much more training and experience than Luke. That creates dramatic power. Keeping Luke around too long in the ST only contributes to a tensionless narrative. Lack of tension removes the drama and our ability to care.

So yes, Luke must be killed off. And he will. If not, the ST will be a boring sack of fluff.

 

Yes, treatments can be vague, but as a continuation of the story, he must have included what the situation would be in terms of conflict and who the conflict was with. From what we know, Lucas had told the Big 3, or at least some of them, that if they didn't want to do it, they would not be re-cast, but that means two things: 1) They do want them to come back, and 2) The story can still be told without them on screen.

I take that to mean that although they are important, the plan is truly to pass the torch to the new generation of heroes. Imagine for a minute that the PT came out first, and when they got to Ep IV, Ewan didn't want to come back. Without re-casting the part, fairly simple changes could be made to compensate. For example, Luke could have simply met Yoda at that point instead.

In reference to this treat being about the baddie, I find it highly unlikely that the villain was not included. Details and such were likely left to be worked out, but I'm sure the basic story was in the treatments. I'm saying this not only from the point of view of what may or may not have been in the treatments, but also that use of these treatments was a prerequisite of the Disney deal, and I'm sure that they would not have seen potential in a treatments that said "There is a bad guy. He does stuff, and the good guys do stuff to try to stop him......." Disney has every reason in the world to want a true Star Wars film that furthers it as the greatest film franchise in history. They didn't spend $4 billion to "figure it out".

Lets say for a moment that Plagueis is in fact the villain, which I think will be the case. If the treatment was on the vague side, it was likely something like this:

"Darth Plagueis was able to escape the Prophecy of The Chosen One and has returned to complete his mastery of The Force, but is surprised to learn the Anakin had children before his death, creating a bloodline that will forever be a threat to him."

This leaves plenty of details to be worked out by the writers and directors.

 

Possibly... but we don't know what the narrative will be yet. I think they could quite easily create a story that didn't require Luke's death (although I do acknowledge that there would be a certain symmetry in Luke being offed like Obi-Wan in ANH). I think it really depends on the roles of Han and Leia too e.g. at the moment I'm having trouble seeing how they are going to work a much older Solo/Ford into the story, and for his role to be meaningful. If Han Solo returns in more of a cameo capacity, it may be more logical to kill off Han (as Ford always wanted) rather than Luke (I doubt they'd kill off both).

 

Or Lucas was checking with them before he started his treatments for Arndt. Lucas had notes/treatments on the ST from the early 80's. He was probablycheckingwith them to see if he needed to change anything.

 

The revolutionaries of Russia and France are usually portrayed as the protagonists (as they were in the OT). They had 'just causes' regardless of what systems ultimately ended up replacing state/ruling class control. Anything's possible of course, I just think that a protagonist of this type would potentially create a wooly villain... and I think that for the ST they'll want a more clear cut villain doing bad things for nefarious reasons.

 

I don't disagree with any of these thoughts. I just have a personal preference for forcing our new heroes into a situation that demands growth, or else. I love the idea of the Master who rebuilt the Order suddenly being gone and seeing how the new heroes react. Killing off Han would create tension, but it wouldn't necessarily create the same narrative problem as killing Luke off.

EHT: As for the poll, I'm cool with either merging or closing. The downside on closing though is the conversation in this thread has been pretty stellar. Today for example has a lot of great thought in it that would be nice to keep in the main thread. But it would also be cool to go back to this thread at some point and see the results. Will the poll results be lost after merging? If so, I can copy them down so we can use some of the old data for future polls. It seems like the votes are just about tapped in this poll.

Darth_Pevra:

Most of the people on this forum haven't forgotten. Hardcore SW fans are what matter here because the general audience wouldn't be paying close attention anyway. Plus, the foreshadowing would work perfectly after the 9 films are done and people can watch them all in a row.

LunarMoth:

Couldn't agree more. What makes the Force interesting is the spiritual warfare you mention being manifested into a physical struggle for the soul of the GFFA. If your main villain is a non-force user, you cut out that deep aspect of the story, and it's no longer Saga Star Wars.

 

I'm totally open to anything as I just want the ST to be great. If it seems like I'm sticking to an idea, its probably because I wind up repeating myself to make the point that right now, with the limited info we have, you can only base speculation on the villain by either looking to the story, which is where I see Plagueis, or make something up based on what you want.

If the ST is great without Plagueis, I will be as happy as if it was great with him.

 

This is a good idea, but I think the points raised by the OP here are probably better overall:

It will be a good idea to do a follow-up poll again a few months down the road and see how results compare. But I agree with Dra--- that a lot of conversation in this poll thread has been good and should be kept going. So I think I'll merge these two "Who's the Baddie?" threads now, so that all of their (increasingly similar) conversations can be kept going, but all in one place.

 

Thread merge

 

Dra--- : Sorry, I thought the poll options and results would be retained, but it appears they were not. However, I saved them first just in case... here they are, as of right before the merge:

Who will be the Big Bad of the ST? (Big Bad = Primary Antagonista)

Darth Sidious ​

5 vote(s)​

5.7%​

​

Darth Plagueis ​

33 vote(s)​

37.5%​

​

Sidious's Secret Apprentice ​

7 vote(s)​

8.0%​

​

Plagueis's Secret Apprentice ​

3 vote(s)​

3.4%​

​

Darth Vader's Secret Apprentice ​

3 vote(s)​

3.4%​

​

A Neo Sith (that means a new Sith unrelated to Palp, Vader, or Plague) ​

13 vote(s)​

14.8%​

​

A PT Jedi (Order 66 Survivor) ​

0 vote(s) ​

0.0%​

​

A New Darksider (not a Sith by another name; a darkside group with a new ideology) ​

13 vote(s)​

14.8%​

​

Grey Force Sensitive(s) (a group or individual who blurs the lines between light and dark) ​

5 vote(s)​

5.7%​

​

Other (be specific or your vote is as meaningless as golf) ​

6 vote(s)​

6.8%​

​

 

I think it's fun that new darksider and neo Sith tied. On an unlucky number too!

What does it mean?

Maybe we'll find out in a few months when we do a new poll.

 

The poll was both fun and a great idea, Dra---. Thanks, Man.

 

Why get rid of the poll? What if newcomers, or even old who haven't voted yet, want to vote later?

 

There are many alternatives to killing Luke to solve the "Luke gets in the way" problem.

Crippling him.
Having a pupil surpass the "great Jedi master". This could even be an important plot-point, showing the growth of the protagonist until he is better in the force than his master.
Having Luke fight on a different "front".
Him taking his leave from fighting, instead preferring to be a teacher only. Remember, wars and fighting skills don't make a Jedi great.
Having him be kidnapped by the villain.

It's not at all necessary to kill him.

Killing him would be unnecessarily repetitive. Imo it would show that they've run out of ideas what to do with their mentor characters.

And even if Luke is dead, we'd still have the ghost as guide. If he is removed by other means - carbonite for instance - the protagonists will have to do without his guidance and that is more of a test than a dead Luke would be (because he's still around as ghost, you see).

Nonsense. There are enough other characters to be killed off. Brothers and sisters of the protagonist. The droids. Han Solo. Etc.

Killing Luke would create a predictable storyline and this doesn't create much tension.

It's like seeing Charles Xavier die for the umpteenth time. Been there, done that.

 

While I agree it's not necessary for Luke to die, I've suggested his death play an important role in a larger mystery plot that demonstrates a 'Crisis in the Force'. If Luke dies we would want it to be a variation on a theme: while defending his family he is struck down, but he does not disappear and become 'One with the Force'. His students are surprised for they had been taught he would become powerfully transfigured. Thus the mystery begins. This event might be foreshadowed by Luke mentioning that he has been unable to commune for some time with his Force Ghost Elders.

Reasons for such a development:

1. It makes Luke's death important by connecting it to the larger 'Force' plot.
2. Makes room for the development of the new characters.
3. It creates a mystery.
4. It isolates the new heroes from Netherworld assistance (for a time).
5. It presents a profound problem (a 'Severance in the Force'). The Jedi need to re-establish a connection with the Force Ghosts. The Force Ghosts are needed to defeat an immortal Sith Lord, while the Jedi defeat the mortal enemy.
6. Its a high stakes problem that creates the most amount of doubt as to the success of the eventual victors.

Just some pure speculation based on what we know about the story so far.

 

Yes, this plot has some promise. I think it would put Luke's students under a lot of pressure if he were to die and mysteriously disappear. If the force doesn't act the way it should, the very foundation of the Jedi order is in danger.

But what I would enjoy too would be if Luke were captured by the villain and tortured for Jedi secrets. That way you could show that even the grandmaster has still some human frailty, which is never a bad thing in a story about super-powered beings.

If Luke's death serves a bigger role than just "mentor is dead, now pupils have to take charge", I wouldn't have anything against it. I just hope he doesn't go the way of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.

 

It's shocking to me how many in here don't seem to want Star Wars to be Star Wars. We are fans enough to participate in forums such as this, yet many of us insist on all but demanding that everything that made us love Star Wars be changed.

And the kicker is that if everything was changed, it would likely be the very same people at the front of the riot saying that they ruined it.

 

Overt sentimentality, repetitiveness and self-referential plots and humor are the death of long-running franchises.

All the movies so far have been bold projects and have greatly changed the saga and sometimes even the landscape of cinema. That is the true spirit of Star Wars.

Like everything else, Star Wars has to evolve and change if it is to survive and bloom.