PT Why did C3-PO, R2-D2 and Chewbacca work for comic relief but not Jar Jar?

I agree it works. I just wanted darker elements. The Prequels felt Disney before Disney bought SW.

 

The Sequels did not feel like Disney, I suppose.

 

R2 and C3PO are a sort of double act, where they play off each other. They are in part based on the bickering peasants in the Hidden Fortress.
C3PO does a fair bit in ANH.
1) When the Jawas are at the Homestead and Owen buys C3PO and an other R2-unit. When that R2 breaks down, C3PO suggest that Owen buy R2-D2 instead. If he had not done that and Owen had not bought him, then the story would have been changed a lot.
2) When Luke is cleaning the droids, C3PO talks about the rebellion and this gets Luke's interest. C3PO then translates what R2 is saying as R2 is manipulating Luke to remove the restraint bolt.
3) C3PO again translates what R2 is saying on the DS, that lets them know Leia is there and he tells R2 to shut down the trash compactor.

In ESB, C3PO is sort of the straight man to Han and the others. He has less plot function as he is not paired with R2 as much.

In RotJ his presence on Endor is a bit odd. The rest of the team are in camouflage in order to blend in and yet they bring along a shiny, golden android? He did have to be there as he gets the Ewoks to help.

As for Jar Jar, I said it before but when you have a "funny" character and don't laugh, then at best you might feel like your time is being wasted. And Jar Jar was made as a more overt "funny" character. Lucas has said as much. Comic relief side-kick essentially. But when such a character fails to be funny for some, they could find the character a bit of a waste or get annoyed.
Again, take Rob Schneider in Judge Dread, totally comic relief side-kick that is there to get a laugh and help a little at the end. But if you don't find him funny then he could become grating. "Odious comic relief" is a thing.

There is also a concept of when someone is trying too hard to be funny. That can backfire.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I admit C-3PO is mildly helpful, but my point is that you would not really have to change the plot much if he were removed. It could have easily been changed so they only bought Artoo. As for the rebellion, Luke had a friend already who was part of it and we see him talking to him longer in a deleted scene. As for him being a translator, I feel like it is a bit odd for one character to serve as a translator for another.

As I said, he does little in Empire.

I admit he was helpful with the Ewoks. Again, he is not completely useless. Still, the storyline with the Ewoks does not seem to have much tension. I get the impression Luke had faith that they would get out or else he would have fought his way out. That said, I admit that that was one of Threepio's best moments.

I have not seen Judge Dread, but I do see what you mean. I might, of course, argue that the same could be said of Threepio because, although he may be less overt comic relief, he is the one who is always complaining and, I might argue, the more annoying. Sure, some people like Jar Jar, but his trope is actually consistent with some very popular characters, having been inspired by Walt Disney's Goofy for one thing. I get the impression that a lot of people do not dislike Jar Jar himself but rather the concept of Jar Jar Binks in a Star Wars movie.

 

You are kind of obsessed with comparing Jar Jar to 3PO. How many times are you going to say the same thing?

 

I liked Jar Jar as a kid, as an adult no so much. I have nothing against the actor, he did the best he could. But Threepio is a superior comic relief.

 

If you remove C3PO, ANH does not work. R2 would not get sold to Owen and the story does not happen.
Also, you would need to make R2 capable of speaking normally in order to get across what happens.
Also, if it is just R2, would he say all the stuff C3PO says aloud? C3PO has R2 to talk to and even when alone, his character has been set up as one that does talk even when alone. If you have just R2 the whole time, him talking aloud to himself the whole time might seem odd.

C3PO says that R2 is his counterpart. C3PO is humanoid, is designed to deal with "human" interactions, Protocol, translation, that sort of thing. R2 is a mechanic, he fixes things.
Sure, you could ask why he does not speak "basic" so everyone can understand him. But R2 is not the only "mech" droid that does not speak normally. That seems a choice that they made In-universe.
Mech-droids don't need to speak "basic".

Him getting blasted is the first sign that something is wrong on Bespin so it starts to raise the tension.
He is able to "speak" to the MF computer and understand what the problem is.
Then his role is that of the straight man.

It was not just getting away from the Ewoks, it was also about getting their help. Alone, Han and co would have not been able to blow up the shield bunker and the DS2 would not have been destroyed.

C3PO complains some but not all the time. And he does have a function other than just comic relief.
So even if you don't find C3PO funny, he does bring more to the table. A character that only is there for comic relief and that people don't laugh at, that is more of a problem.
In my experience, Jar Jar had that problem. Some did not find him funny but since he is in so much of the film and does little besides trying to be "funny", he can become grating. A failed "funny" character that is in 5 minutes of a film, that might just get people to think "Yeah, that scene was not very good but the rest was fine." However if the failed "funny" character is in most of the film, that can have a bigger impact.
Jar jar was hyped up, he was shown a lot and he is in the film quite a bit. But to those that did not find him funny, he did not work and that impacted the film.

The character of Goofy can be great in animated shorts, like "Clock cleaners". Really funny.
But that is an animated short and designed not to be taken seriously.
Was TPM designed to not be taken seriously? Was it just a total comedy, nothing but total silliness?
I would argue no.
So while Goofy the character is popular, the question is, does he work within a fairly serious SW film?
If you were to add Goofy to say, Titanic, would that work? I doubt it.

Now you can have "funny" characters in very serious films, take "Bad Ape" in War for the the Planets of the Apes. He is there to be funny but he also adds other things. And he was a gamble, that character could easily have backfired but here it worked really well. To me.
And to me, Bad Ape was handled and played better than Jar Jar.

In closing, like with most things, execution matters and to me, the PT did not always pull off what they tried to do. I can see what the intent for Jar Jar was. But I did not laugh at his antics so he did not work.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Sorry—my intention was not to bring down Threepio but simply compare the two comic relief characters. But I would still argue that Jar Jar, considering how much of a smaller role he gets, is much more important. If it weren't for Jar Jar, they would not have been able to contact the Gungans and win the battle. I would note that one of Jar Jar's few serious moments in that movie was when he tells the queen about their army.

I admit he's better in the Clone Wars series. The episode Bombad Jedi has a pretty interesting contrast between the old and new comedy characters in my opinion.

 

What saddens me is Chewie doesn’t even get a mention. That’s cold!

 

Yes… I just never saw Chewie as a comedy character.

But the thing is, I personally found Jar Jar more relatable than Threepio and other previous comedy characters. His reactions to most things seem very human—especially in the submarine scene.

 

Chewie swings from a vine like Tarzan in Return of the Jedi.

Chewie is part of Han’s & Leia’z jokes:

“Laugh it up Fuzzball.”

“Get this walking carpet out of my way.”

 

Chewie also has a few funny bits, like the chess game and being scared of the garbage compactor. But it's subtle.

 

OT Humour- blends in well with the situation, whatever it is.
From "get in there you big coward" -insistent shake of the head- "Chewy come here" to "I never doubted you for a second"

PT Humour tends to be a little more in your face about it
from Slapstick Jar-Jar getting his hand stuck and his head being numb by an energy bolt, to close-ups of C-3PO with a head on a droid saying puns that would make @PCCViking blush.

Both kinds of humour are fine, it is after all subjective. But it's understandable those who grew up with a certain type would be somewhat jarred (no pun intended) by the switch in tone. This is why I think Ewoks weren't well received after the bleakness of ESB.

 

Yes. To be clear, I'm not saying anyone has to like Jar Jar just because I and many others who grew up with the Prequels did. I admit the comedy from the Original Trilogy is different, which I attribute primarily to the technology at the time.

Here's the thing: I don't think Star Wars has ever been extremely serious on principle. There has always been fun, childlike elements like the droids arguing about whose fault something is, Yoda pretending to be… whatever he was pretending to be on Degobah, and Ewoks existing. There was always some variety in tones. Lucas wrote The Phantom Menace as the new Episode 1, changing the way he wanted people to experience Star Wars. Hence, since it was already a fairly fun and lighthearted movie, I thought Jar Jar fit in quite well.

It has been my suspicion that Lucas originally intended more character development for the Gungan in Episodes 2 and 3, which is why there is not as much personal growth in him as people might have liked but it was lost for whatever reason—just a guess.

 

Compare C3PO in ANH and Jar Jar in TPM. Is Jar Jar's role that much smaller than C3PO?
I looked around and found that C3PO had about 20 min of screen time in ANH.
Jar Jar had about 25 min in TPM.
I have not checked for myself if these estimates are correct.
So Jar Jar did not have a small role in TPM. It was much less in the sequels yes.

Why would a difference in technology matter when it comes to a comedic character?
Jar Jar's comedy is a lot of slapstick, pratfalls and things like that. If Lucas wanted such a character in ANH, it would be very possible to do that. Have a guy in a suit and have him do pratfalls.
And slapstick type humor has been around for a long time.

I think that Lucas instead wanted a different type of humor and a more overt "funny" character.

There is a difference between a film that has humor in it and lighthearted moments and a film that is a total comedy.
Take the Marvel Superhero films, they tend to have a fair amount of comedy and laughs and yet they are meant to be taken somewhat seriously. Compare instead with films like Borat, the Hangover films, Tropic Thunder and films of that sort.

I think you could have had character growth in just one film. Most film characters have just the one film to grow and change in.
Why there was less Gungans/Jar Jar. I think the backlash to the character made Lucas change his mind.
The character did not work as intended for enough of the audience that Lucas reduced his role.
And I don't think there is anything wrong with that if that is what happened. If you make a film and enough people point out a problem and give valid reasons to their argument. Doing something about that is sensible.
In Star Trek TNG, the Ferengi were intended to be the new villains. But due how badly they were handled the first time and the second and third time not really helping. They were eventually instead changed to a more comedic role. And there they worked better.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I meant overall. My point was that Threepio is in every movie and I'm still not convinced he was more useful (much less more heroic) than Jar Jar in one.

Because it was easier to make a character similar to Jar Jar with CGI. There is no way they could have made Jar Jar have such an expressionful face.

That depends on the Marvel movie a fair deal. My point is that Star Wars movies vary in their level of seriousness. That said, I actually find it easier to take him seriously than some of the previous comedy characters since I think there is more humanity to balance the character out. Episode 1 is meant to be a childish movie since Anakin is nine. But we don't see Anakin for the first half hour into the movie. Jar Jar is a proxy character, made to be relatable for children. He reacts the same way children would (or probably most of the rest of us) to the large-scale events surrounding him. The humanity of some of his reactions is probably why I find it easier to take him seriously—and more easy to relate to him than some of the previous comedy characters.

Jar Jar had some character growth in The Phantom Menace. For instance, we see how he surprises everyone when he really throws a wrench into Palpatine's plans by speaking up to the queen and thus leading them to make an alliance with the Naboo people. I've always been attracted to the trope of the "fool" who no one expects rather saving anyone. I'm not saying that they could not have cut down some of the slapstick humor—but there is not a character in Star Wars for which I do not have some complaints. Even so, there was some character growth. As I said, I think there's enough seriousness about the character that I can relate to him.
I don't know… It was mostly the media from what I can see. George Lucas seemed quite convinced that this was simply, in his own words, "Jar Jar's great adventure", and that in twenty years, people would begin to turn around on Jar Jar as the younger and newer fans grew up, which, from what I have seen, seems to be the case. That said, I did find it odd that Jar Jar was so plot-important in Episode 2 and yet had basically no character development.

 

C-3PO not useful?

C-3PO helped save Luke, Leia, Han, and Chewie from being Ewok food. Granted Luke used The Force, but the Ewoks saw Threepio as a god, so that is key.

C-3PO helped decipher the Sith dagger in The Rise of Skywalker.

 

I didn't mean he was useless. All I meant is that in 17 minutes and 45 seconds, Jar Jar felt more useful than in 47 minutes and 15 seconds from Threepio. Also, Luke did not seem very concerned about the Ewok danger so without Threepio, I suspect he would have done something else.

True. I was mostly thinking of Lucas' Star Wars.

 

Jar Jar could not really be in the OT as Lucas had not thought up the character yet.
And overall, C3PO does way more than Jar Jar does.

Again, you don't need CGI to make a slapstick type character. The Three Stooges, the Keystone Cops are examples of slapstick type characters and they existed long before CGI.
Just have a normal guy in a Jester outfit and clown makeup and have him do pratfalls. There, slapstick character.

You sort hit on the reason why some have issues with TPM. Childish movie. None of the OT films are childish, they are family films or for general audiences.
By making a childish film, Lucas is doing altering the style of film that SW had been up to that point.
Also, childish, is not really a positive. If a person is being childish then it typically means this person is immature, silly or lacking in complexity. Calling a film childish is not doing the film any favors.

If you mean a film aimed at children then that does not have to mean the film is childish.
There are plenty of films or shows aimed at children that are not childish. To me, a good kids film is not childish. Take Pixar films, those tend to be aimed at children and yet adults can enjoy them as well. Because they are not childish.

C3PO and the other droids are not human and they are treated as second class citizens or slaves by several characters in the films. The bartender in ANH tells Luke that he does not serve "their" kind.
And yet we have some characters, like Luke, that do treat them like people.
And we see that droids have feelings. C3PO displays several, fear, pride, worry, care, anger, discomfort,.
R2 is less expressive due to not speaking English but even he manages to convey emotions.

To me, Jar Jar is too over the top a lot of times that growth becomes hard to see.

And again, I think there is no MCU movie that are meant to be taken as a totally silly films that have no serious moments in them. The ones that come close would be Deadpool.

I think, again I think, that Lucas sort of realized that he had a bit of tone problem in TPM. You had Qui-Gon being killed, Maul getting cut in half and then silly moments with Jar Jar and kid Anakin.
There were serious moments that clashed with the humor.
Again I point to Bad Ape in War for the Planets of the Apes as an example of a comedic type character done right in a very bleak film.

Did he really interfere with Palpatine's plans in TPM? Consider, once Padme had called for the vote against Valorum, Palpatine had won. He gotten what he wanted, Valorum out and him soon to be chancellor. What Padme did after that did not really matter.
Was it really vital that she stay on Coruscant? Why? If she stays and Palpatine gets elected and he does some backroom deal to get the TF to leave, would that be very different to what happened?
Yes he did loose Maul but did that really harm him? Would Maul be able to lead the seps like Dooku did?

Take the battle at the end, Jar Jar is put in charge and he spends most of the battle clowning around.
If he had tried to be more serious, try to be brave and be less "comedic" then that could have shown growth. He is scared but does his best to be brave. Instead, to me, his antics lessened the tension of the battle. And how he takes out several droids by just being clumsy is a bit of a stretch.
Same with C3PO's terrible puns in the battle in AotC, those did not land to me.

Jar Jar's role was reduced substantially in AotC and even more in RotS.
And I think Lucas did that because of the backlash to the character.
That is just what I think, I can not prove it but considering how much smaller his role got, then that is the only explanation that makes sense.

C3PO and R2 were received very well after ANH. They were quite popular. Hence why they got put in the PT even when that was not strictly speaking necessary.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I think Jar Jar is more over the top. I'm fine with him being a little clumsy and goofy, but I think it's a bit much for the movie.

 

Maybe. Then again, there was a scene in The Empire Strikes Back where Threepio got smashed and he had to be carried around like that. But that was not my main point.

That isn't exactly what I meant by "childish" in this context, but perhaps it was a poor choice of words. Episode 1 is a children's movie, primarily, but like all good children's movies, I think it can be enjoyed by older people as well.

Okay, fair enough. Maybe you can relate to the droids to some degree (although I can't get over the question of why anyone would program a robot with human emotions. I could push back on that a bit, but, as I said, I'm not trying to bring down the droids.

As for Jar Jar's growth being hard to see, that is a fair objection. That said, for me, it was actually the droids' lack of expression along with Threepio's stiff and dry humor which made it harder for me to really see much depth in the character. Again, by the way, this is still just all my personal impression.

Maybe. I personally found it fairly easy to distinguish them since there was some time to breath. I found a bigger problem with Qui-Gon's death was that I had trouble empathizing with Obi-wan about it, just because I felt his relationship with Qui-Gon was not very developed.

Well, Palpatine calls it an "unexpected move". Okay, maybe I should change that statement—it may not have messed up Palpatine's plans, but it did probably save a lot of lives in a way he could not have foreseen.

Yes, that could be why he was reduced. Still, those two movies are more serious in tone than the first.

Fair enough—I will say, however, that I think Jar Jar gets better in later media.

 

No it isn't.

 

hahaha see what you did there