CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

I've never had a problem with "Jedi" and I never will. When I do say that - I mean the Original Theatrical Version. I don't fall into the trap of influence from people saying it's weak because it has some slower pacing for the lead upto the The Battle Of Endor. You could say the same about Alien, The Godfather Part II or LOTR (because let's face it - three movies about walking).

Loved the whole premise of the rescue and the build up - even Boba's death (Sorry kids, that was the way it was scripted) whilst people said it was a weak death - he was only a smaller supporting character and an action figure at that point. Foam latex vocalist, Sy Snootles and Lapti Nek surpasses Jedi Rocks by a golden mile as it sounds more alien like opposed to a dodgy house band jam imitating The Blues Brothers with some far less impressive lyrics. Whilst the Ewoks are cute and cuddly - the little ******** aren't so cute after all considering they are cannibalistic "Teddy bears". And most of all - Ian McDiarmid nails it as The Emperor. It may not have the darker premise of ESB - but jesus - what other franchises hold that same premise?

All in all - I love the original saga in their original incarnations. The Special Editions of ROTJ were a mish mash of unnecessary change over the period of 14 years and 3 separate releases. But the Unaltered saga to me is heralded in release order and I still treasure it as a great film from my childhood as well as a great movie today. ***Long live the original Anakin Skywalker***

 

I respect your point of view, but the entire Jabba sequence (up to and including the sail barge/skiff battle) is one of my favorite sequences in the entire Saga. Love the whole Mission Impossible vibe that I got from the this aspect of the film, i.e. Luke & co. setting everything & putting everyone in place in order to rescue Han. Plus, it was great to see Luke Skywalker be such a calm bada$$ here - his entrance into the palace was amazing, and quite unexpected considering what you had seen the character act like in the other two films. I thought it was very poignant how Luke & co., despite getting ready to fight the Empire to the death, took time out & risked their lives to rescue their friend. Thematically, it was also extremely important to see Lando Calrissian redeem himself in the eyes of the audience, i.e. by participating in the rescue (granted, I don't think he had much choice when he handed over Han & co. to Vader in ESB, but that's a discussion for another thread)....

That being said, the JB sequence is partially ruined now by all of the CGI nonsense (including that terrible new song) that Lflm. added in for the 1997 SE, but the original 1983 Jabba's Palace sequence was, IMHO, perfection.

 

Yeah, I love the Jabba stuff as a self-contained film inside of the film and it does set up Lando for good guy actions in the later half of the movie. It doesn't have anything Imperial-related in it, however, it does show that the universe had grown so large by that point they could utterly sidetrack the characters in another aspect of the world. I think Lucas said in a commentary that the core story he had was "Luke/Vader/Emperor" so he admits that the opening of the film is really "riffing" and stretching things out. It does flesh out the dark, criminal underbelly that had been hinted at in the last 2 movies so by the time they hit the third one it explodes to the forefront.

 

The problems with ROTJ have been documented already in this thread, but to sum it up, it has a lot of fast forward moments unless you haven't seen the film in a long time.
I just recently watched ROTJ and enjoyed it from beginning to end, but I also hadn't seen it in a few years. If I watched it again, there's a lot I would skip through, where as I can watch Empire relentlessly and just never, ever get bored.

Oh, and the music scene Lucas added to Jabba's Palace is cringe worthy, and when I watched it long ago with friends who had never seen it, had to give them a speech about how it wasn't originally there just because of how embarrassing it was that I was suggesting they watch a film that early on hits them in the face with a cartoon dance number.

 

Ewoks.

 

Just because Jedi comes in third out of third doesn't make it weak, I for one simply think ANH and TESB to be stronger. Look at how many times Martin Scorsese was nominated for a Best Director Oscar and lost before he won for The Departed. That doesn't mean all the movies he made before that were crap, it simply means over the years he was up against some stiff competition.

On a side note, if I could remove any one scene from any of the OT, it would be the music scene Lucas added to Jedi.

 

One of the biggest reason, IMHO, is how Vader is used.

Yes, I know, the emotional impact of wanting to be united with son, etc but Vader was bad-ass in ESB. He knew Luke was his son before RoTJ, but cut off his hand, throw steal boxes and pipes at him - and threw him out a window. His use of the Force was the best we'd seen at that time, but in Jedi, Vader has pretty much given up with life.

Annnnnd, after the PT, *THAT* is how the prophecy was fulfilled?!? Jesus wept.

 

Ewoks. 'nuff said.

 

Vader does throw his Lightsaber at Luke. That said, Vader hasn't given up in his quest to turn Luke to the dark side. He's just using a different tactic to get the job done. He's also starting to reconcile his past actions with his future ones.

It didn't matter how it was done, just that it was done.

 

I blame the Ewoks.

 

That "jedi rocks" song REALLY needs to go. It's so bad it reminds me a bit of the Star Wars Christmas Special.

 

Disney really needs to remake Return of the Jedi.

 

Because like we saw in RotJ, Vader's good side had started to awaken in himself, he was not that cruel against his son anymore because he was confused. Unlike in ESB, he saw Luke still believe the good in him, so he could not behave the same way like he did in ESB.

When Luke went rampage and beat him down, Vader was no longer fully willing to fight his son to death. Luke, at that time, was the one who was truly losing because he gave himself to his anger.

 

I think the reason why RoTJ gets so much flak is because many of the morally grey characters are nearing the end of their character arcs and as a result become boring; for want of a better term. Boba Fett who is the definitive badass of the OT dies because a blind man accidentally knocks him in the jetpack and sends him careening into a gigantic vagina. Han Solo who has always been the scoundrel/pirate finally becomes a wholesome good guy and while he has the same arrogance and wisecracks there really isn't any tension between him and the other main characters. He's finally a good guy and has no reason to struggle against the status quo. Especially since he's beholden to the Rebellion since they allowed their most valuable agents to rescue him. Darth Vader has proved himself to be a cunning and manipulative villain but since the good within him has awakened he simply isn't as menacing or dangerous as he was before. Palpatine is revealed to be the true villain but all he really does is pull the strings and attempts to turn Luke and Vader against each other. While you get a hint of his true power all we really see is a vile politician simply playing with his puppets.

I really can't blame RoTJ for its flaws. Most trilogies experience their peak with the second movie before falling apart with the third. RoTJ did a remarkable job of keeping it together...despite the ewoks. I just wish that they had been able to find a way to retain the cunning of Boba Fett, ambiguity of Han Solo and darkness of Darth Vader while still allowing them to continue with their character arcs and/or character deaths.

That being said when Darth Vader straight up hurled his lightsaber at Luke and then drove him into a rage that nearly turned Luke to the dark side that made up for it...not even Sidious had been able to provoke Luke quite as much.

 

I'm sure it's been said, but being the weakest of the original trilogy isn't saying much. It's not much of a criticism to say a movie isn't as good as ANH or ESB.

Personally, I think ROTJ is a great movie and a wonderful ending to the OT, it's just not quite as great as ANH and ESB. I think many would agree.

 

That would be because by the original standards the movie was a bit more dark. It could also be that some people do not take the ewoks seriously*
*I have nothing against ewoks.

 

Pretty much, the Ewoks, another Death Star and Leia didn't get much character development or interaction with Vader. But the development of Luke and Vader was so epic, it's not black and white again, it became the struggle about love and redemption.

 

Jedi Rocks is painful to watch.

 

I'm actually going to say something ballsy. Return of The Jedi (while not better then Empire Strikes Back) is better then A New Hope. Jedi just has a great ending of joy and sorrow and deals with the most important message in Star Wars which is redemption. Love the scenes with the Emperor, talk about a chilling villain. Jabbas scenes are great as it shows how powerful Luke has become and it shows that not all evil is Nazi like the empires is. The ewoks are a great commentary on technology and the will to win. Also the idea of the ewoks being childish is stupid to me as they were going to cook and eat Han and Luke you know they ate the storm troopers that's not childish stuff! The fight scenes are amazing ITS A TRAP! I think the problem Jedi faces is the fact it came after Empire which imo is one of the greatest movies of all time.

 

Ewoks and the second Death Star.

 

That was the fault of the Special Editions, though.

 

For me, ROTJ is my least favorite Star Wars movie because it has the fewest amount of scenes that I enjoy re-watching. I don't really care about Jabba's palace and sail barge because I don't really care about Han Solo (don't torch/pitchfork me), I don't really care about Yoda dying and I don't care for how long he takes to do it. I don't really care about Ewoks. So that pretty much leaves the space battle and the final duel as the only parts of ROTJ which I enjoy indispensably.

I can only speak for myself, ROTJ is *plenty* of people's favorite of the six.

 

Every time you express these opinions the Force strangles a baby ewok.

 

Somehow I feel okay with that.