1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Feelicks, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 21, 2015
    I personally loved ROTJ more than ESB.

    The special thing about ESB, is that is has this contrast of wonderful colors and tight tones or "Hopelessness" and much more claustrophobic. Everything is smaller yet more dramatic.

    However, ROTJ has this overlaying theme of forgiveness, passion and love. You wouldn't think of a Hero normally, giving up his life to not kill his father who did terrible things to him.

    It had the end action of 3 battles at once, Vader vs Luke II and the best, Palps.

    It was love that saved Luke and Vader, and I feel, that it's a much more powerful narrative than ESB when comparison.

    I much prefer Maquad's directing than Kershner on this matter.
  2. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 8, 2015

    Ezon Pin wrote

    I much prefer Marquand's directing than Kershner on this matter.


    With Kershner's excellent directing we got plenty of close-ups of the lead protagonists and great use of body language / facial expressions that convey the characters' feelings to us.

    What we got from Marquand, in contrast, is a petrified Mon Mothma that stares at Admiral Ackbar during his entire briefing part and it never becomes clear whether he reminds her too much of last night's dinner or whatever else. :p

    In general, I also consider ROJ the weakest of the originals and back in the late 1990's the magazine Sci-Fi Universe nailed it, IMHO:

    Here are the 50 reasons (plus 10 reasons why ROJ isn't a total disappointment):
    La Calavera and JediChipKelly like this.
  3. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 10, 2015
    I like what you said about forgiveness and love.

    I like Kershner's style and Marquand's. Yes, they were different, but both movies are great IMO.

    Lt. Hija's quote about dinner is so funny.
  4. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 21, 2015

    The thing about ROTJ is it has a much darker theme. It has a better climax, battles and emotion. Now I'm comparing the two, on their own, I think they are amazing.

    But side by side, ROTJ just works better for me.
  5. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 5, 2015
  6. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 5, 2015
    All ROTJ lovers simply must own the making of book. It's definitive as far as I am concerned.
  7. JediChipKelly

    JediChipKelly Jedi Knight star 2

    Jan 3, 2016
    The problem is you are only mentioning the last 30-40 minutes of the movie, and you have to judge a movie from start to finish. Nobody will argue the Throne Room Scenes are some of the best of the 7 SW movies, but again that's just part of the movie.

    There is nothing in ESB that resembles the Ewok part where the movie comes to a complete halt. They could have trimmed a good 15 minutes out of that part as it gets rather silly at times. There is not one part of ESB that resembles an Ewok type of section where you wish they just edited it out cause it brings down the movie.

    Also the performances (with the exception of Mark Hamill) are a bit lazy in ROTJ compared to ESB. Han Solo is sort of going through the motions where he pretty much carries ESB. Leia is at her feisty self all through ESB, whereas ROTJ and even TFA (she is a somewhat different more mellow character).
    sith_rhino and DarthCricketer like this.
  8. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Dec 7, 2014
    Well, this might be subjective, but I find the middle of ESB an incredible drag. The endless scenes of repairing the Falcon in the asteroid belt (with only the minimal of character arcs being advanced), and the repetitive nature of Luke's training on Dagobah, in which he repeatedly lifts rocks, stubbornly fails twice, and Yoda dismissively looks on him, twice, all just makes re-watching it a slog.

    I just find the middle third of the film really dull and slow.

    But again, that's just me.
    Ezon Pin likes this.
  9. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 21, 2015
    I mention them because they are my favorite parts. And yes, I like the jabba and ewoks.

    The whole movie was fantastic.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  10. dva3842

    dva3842 Jedi Master star 1

    Apr 2, 2008
    I remember watching it for the first time, and the movie completely stopped for me when they came across that stupid net trap and the first ewok appeared and Leia started trying to give it a sandwich.
    I was hoping it would move on from this comedy , but nope, like Jar-jar, we were stuck with the whole lot of them for the rest of the movie..sigh. And I remember being so relieved our gang had just escaped
    from that slimy jabba's palace. Then years later, I was of course shocked at how cartoonish the designs were for TPM and the prequels. The only thing I remember that looked like a "grand old republic" was
    Padme's ship which looked like an imperial type ship from the Elite/Frontier game series, but was still cool.
    JediChipKelly likes this.
  11. dva3842

    dva3842 Jedi Master star 1

    Apr 2, 2008
    double post
  12. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Jul 29, 2016
    Because it felt anticlimactic. I know this is a common opinion but the Ewoks, while important and fun, where more childish than what was shown in the two prior episodes, and the Battle of Endor was just to kill screen time, taking away from the climactic duel on the Death Star. Han and Leia should have been involved with the main conflict during the climax, leaving the battle to the Ewoks and the other rebels. The shield generator battle should have been more emotional, rather than video game action.
  13. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Jul 29, 2016
    That's my rating too, with 7 in between 4 and 3.
    Iron_lord and TiniTinyTony like this.
  14. sith_rhino

    sith_rhino Jedi Master star 2

    Jul 9, 2007

    Yes, too much Ewoks (or misuse of Ewoks, perhaps) is my main issue with this film. Plus the Death Star device was already used in ANH. Been there, done that. It would have been better, I think, to have the Luke/Emperor/Vader action on the imperial capital of Had Abaddon instead (an early story idea for ROTJ), perhaps losing the new Death Star altogether.

    Having said all that, there's some cool stuff here, like Luke's entrance into Jabba's palace (calm confidence, black duds), and the way he uses trickery (learning Ben's lesson from ANH "there are alternatives to fighting") rather than violence to overcome, then recruit, the Ewoks, plus some of the light sabre duel is very good, though not as good as TESB. I thought the Emperor was a pretty good Machiavellian bad guy.
  15. Darth Cocytus

    Darth Cocytus Jedi Master star 4

    May 8, 2016
    Most of the time when I hear people complain about Return of the Jedi, it's often about the fact that The Empire had their asses handed to them by the Ewoks. However, they tend to forget that the Stormtroopers were taken by surprise and that they were on the Ewok's territory. Not to mention that the Ewoks used guerrilla warfare and are discribed as miniature wookiees. Also, I actually like the ewoks and find them to be intimidating considering the fact that they're man-eaters.

    That being said, I love Return of the Jedi and is my second favorite of the Saga next to Revenge of the Sith
  16. Ewok Poet

    Ewok Poet Force Ghost star 6

    Jul 31, 2014
    Ewoks fan whose favourite two movies are ROTS and ROTJ? And can use logic, which most Ewok haters fail at. Heck yeah! :) Hope you stick around!
    Darth Cocytus likes this.
  17. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    Here’s a two-part article I came across that does an excellent job examining the film’s strengths and weaknesses.

    Part I (the weaknesses):

    Part II (the strengths):
  18. MissJo

    MissJo Jedi Knight star 2

    Aug 6, 2015
    Well, this is an interesting subject. I always thought that it was because of Ewoks mostly. But I never really mind them.

    It is actually my second favorite, mostly because of the last half an hour of the movie. Like I said, don't mind Ewoks, don't care about them much too. But the fight on DS and celebration and force ghost in the end are parts I kind of like the most in OT, hence ROTJ being my second favorite. :)
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 6, 2016
    I never had a problem with the Ewoks. There is a little bit of a questoin mark over some of the Stormtrooper acting though. In some cases it looks ok, as if the troopers are doing what you'd expect but are about to be somewhat overwhelmed by superior numbers or unexpected tactics. But some of the time the troopers look like Threepio , throwing their arms up (in surpsise?) etc. Also, some of the coverage is a wee bit wobbly.

    If it was up to me, and I had the inclination to change anything, that is something about ROTJ that I would enhance. The scale of the Ewok attack and the fact that they have managed to infiltrate right into the Empire ranks by the time the attack begins.

    Other than that I think it's fine. It felt to me that the Ewoks, while making a huge sacrifice by flinging themselves at the Imperial hardware, tieing down and dispersing their troops sufficiently to swing the balance of the skirmish in favour of the Rebel team, who were able to exploit it immediately.
    Sarge and Iron_lord like this.
  20. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Oct 16, 2015
    I can understand why Ewoks would bother people, but I never really had a problem with them. Their issue is more along the lines of something I'd think about after watching the movie instead of during. Like I might think "Hmmm, come to think of it, it is kind of odd that the Empire's 'legion of best troops' were beaten by some teddy bears", but this thought wouldn't really come to me while watching the movie and so it doesn't affect my enjoyment at all.

    Instead my main issues with this movie involve the entire Endor sequence as well as the character arcs of Han & Leia. Han's character basically goes nowhere in this movie and Leia's connection to the Force, established in the last movie, seems to have been dropped and so there's nowhere for her character to go either. Two main characters of the trilogy are essentially stagnant throughout this movie, and that's a shame. Furthermore, I just find most of the Endor scenes to be quite boring. The characters often feel like meat puppets as they're running around and "doing things" on Endor, but none of it really feels like it has significance. It feels like something more suited to a television show titled The Adventures of Luke Skywalker and his Friends: "this week Luke and his friends encounter some furry creatures. But are they friend or foe? And what's this? Princess Leia seems to have taken a liking to one of them! Stay tuned next week for more wacky shenanigans with Luke and his friends!" The problem with this feeling is that this isn't some weekly television serial. This is the final act in the Star Wars trilogy. There should be some weight and significance behind what's going on.

    But other than that, I still really like this movie. The first act, with Han's rescue, is great, especially since it accomplishes 2 things: tying up a lose end from the last movie and demonstrating how far Luke has progressed as both a character and a Jedi. Great stuff and very satisfying to see. The last act of the movie was also great. The Luke/Vader/Emperor scenes are fantastic and Ian McDiarmid absolutely kills it in his role. Everything finally started to feel more climactic with the Death Star battle and lightsaber duel. And the Luke storyline finally ends on an appropriately emotional, bittersweet, but still kind of happy note. There must have been a lot of pressure to end this trilogy, especially after the first two movies were such hits. And although it wasn't perfect, I'd say that the people involved still did a very satisfying job.

    Special Edition Changes
    1.) Like: Victory Celebration ending music
    2.) Dislike: Jedi Rocks, "No....Nooooooo!", Hayden ghost, color timing & crushed blacks
    3.) Don't really care: Effects changes, blinking Ewoks
    4.) Overall: I prefer the theatrical version
  21. Conkhead_12

    Conkhead_12 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jul 28, 2016
    Well I don't think Return of the Jedi is the weakest. It's my 2nd favorite in OT after The Empire Strikes Back.
    Han's rescue was such lolz and confirmation of Vader's identity and Obi-Wan telling Anakin//Vader's story.
    Han//Leia//Luke's speeder scene was an OK. I love the Ewoks, they sounds very lovely.
    We see the amazing capital ship space Battle of Endor. Executor destroyed.
    Luke tries to pull :vader: back to the light side. A duel between Luke and Vader. (Especially the music) Vader redeems himself and killed Emperor Palps.
    Really like that Vader's NOOOO in the special edition. Hayden as the Ghost as well. Oh yes, Luke reveals that Leia is his sister.

    Oh yeah, I forgot one thing. Leia kisses Han with an Ewok cheering them on.
  22. 2K-D2

    2K-D2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Aug 4, 2016
    To answer the thread's question: yes it is.

    I've not read the the thread (30 pages = scary), but how can it even be a contest?

    Han underused + phones in / hams up;
    don't put him in one room with Lando, it's a wonder the entire rebel fleet wasn't sucked out into vacuum when they were done.

    Leia is 2-3 different characters in the movie.
    No real structure to her or Han's, well, timeline - can't be called an arc.
    The pre-battle dialogue suggests something dark and possibly tragic for all 3 characters, but then Endor resumes happier than it ever was.

    It's disjointed.

    Ewoks feel a bit out of place and too childish, but it gets worse and worse as the movie progresses - the frying pans at the end? Intercutting with the throne room? How does that NOT curb the drama, when you see those rebel friends aren't really all that much in danger as they reenact Hook?

    Wicket hugging Han and Leia as they hook up??
    The new score pushes the cheesiness of the end celebration into the background, so in that version it's mostly good - the original, no.

    It's uneven, in quality and tone - large parts of it are on par with the other 2, but not its entirety.

    Not trying to be an arrogant prick or anything, but how is this really an issue of contention?
  23. Jedi Daniel

    Jedi Daniel Chosen One star 5

    Apr 7, 2000
    I've always loved RotJ more than ANH. Preferred the lightsaber and battle sequences, the ewoks don't bother me in the slightest either.
    Jedi Knight Fett and themoth like this.
  24. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 5, 2015
    ROTJ was my favourite as a kid. As I grew up, I began to prefer TESB.
  25. Obironsolo

    Obironsolo Force Ghost star 4

    Feb 7, 2005
    Star Wars was the original. Empire took things to even greater heights, and then Jedi landed the plane. Landing the plane is a helluva lot harder than it looks. If Jedi didn't land that plane, the whole thing would have crashed and died. It deserves to stand alongside the other two films IMO.
    themoth likes this.