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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Why take this ship into battle?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth Chuck Norris, Feb 21, 2020.

  1. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    This detail sits nicely with the evidence that Ackbar called out specifically to neutralize the super star destroyer.

    I made the mistake of digging up my interlinear of Khan novel and theatrical script. In the Khan scripts from February 1982, Lucas had Lando say that they were running out of time because the death star was turning towards the Endor moon. That idea was chopped from theatrical. For theatrical Lucas pulled the idea of time from Lando and gave it to Ackbar, but provided no obvious ticking clock. In Khan, Ackbar is not obviously deliberately targeting the super star destroyer, but opportunistically observes that it is taking damage and asks for fighters to help finish it off. In the theatrical, Lucas gives Ackbar more of a tactical tenor when he connects time and super star destroyer. Concentrating fire on that super star destroyer now constitutes giving the (primary mission) fighters more time. And since in theatrical not all fighters had headed for the death star, now it can appear as if A-Wings were holding back from that primary mission to help with combat air patrol (secondary mission). But in Khan it is clear that all color groups went with Lando. Blue splits off. Green splits off.
    ...
    That's a kit bash background filler by Bill George, designer of the B-Wing. History has dubbed it Dornean Gunship. Here's two other entertaining looks at some background vessels.

    Three Rebel Ships That Star Wars Forgot EC HENRY


    The Ugliest Rebel Ship You've NEVER Heard of EC HENRY
     
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  2. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 24, 2019
    That’s all very interesting, and I am particularly a fan of fleshing out the barely-visible-but-very-much-in-the-films ships that make up the Rebel fleet. Thanks for sharing those videos.
     
  3. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

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    Apr 25, 2004
  4. Django Fett

    Django Fett Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 7, 2012
    Its official title is Braha'tok Gunship...https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Braha'tok-class_gunship

    Rogue One
    [​IMG]
    Apparently when they were looking for new ships to bulk out the Rebel fleet, this was one of them. Bill George designed it and kit bashed the model only for Joe Johnston to say "it looks like a Battlestar Galactica ship" and it was reduced to a few blurry blink and you'll miss it shots. Who knows it might appear in the Cassian Andor series, certainly looks the part.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  5. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    It certainly does look like one of the 1978 GSB Colonial fleet vessels. Joe Johnston had turf to defend, as well, because four Star Wars alumni had helped get to look of BSG off the ground. It's no accident that there's a common vocabulary and very close, very fraternal resemblance between the two franchises. That being said, the one-two punch of Colin Cantwell wackadoodle dream logic filtered through Joe Johnston's hard core degree in Industrial Design produced Y and X Wing fighters that are more daring, groundbreaking, revolutionary (than Colonial Viper). If I am not mistaken, the originator of the vision of the A-Wing is McQuarrie (in a painting dated yadda yadda). One can be forgiven for thinking that the Colonial Viper borrows from the X-Wing, but the A-Wing in its original form did not go through Cantwell or Johnston. So. The Colonial Viper could be all McQuarrie, and, The X-Wing and Y-Wing dominate it in pure otherworldly design. (And for comparison, the original concept drawings for what became the B-Wing are Johnston or McQuarrie, but I think Johnston.)
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...actica-buck-rodgers-models-up-auction-1009619
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  6. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
    I think McQuarrie also did sketches for Buck Rogers. That starfighter design resembles the SW A-wing.
     
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  7. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 14, 2018
    According to that Wook article, it's also known as the "Dornean gunship."

    I wonder who recruited these shipwrights into the Rebellion. Maybe Luke Skywalker, that famous knight with one hand and notable sexual tension with his twin sister.
     
  8. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    The ship in the second video looks similar to the Twilight in The Clone Wars.

    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...wilight.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090310162048
     
  9. The Senate

    The Senate Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 12, 2020
    Those ships are basically in case the base is attacked while they are away and need to relocate.Or I’d say they need to retreat and land on a planets surface.Those ships simply carry the supply’s they would need in case of those happening
     
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  10. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    I like it, but why take them directly into battle? Wouldn't you have them wait somewhere else in space, other in the Death Star Battle?
     
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  11. The Senate

    The Senate Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 12, 2020
    Say their main flagship crashes on a planet below or is forced to retreat to a nearby planet.That way the ships can help the stranded rebels as soon as possible rather then go through a hyperspace jump which would take time.
     
  12. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    I get it. It's for immediate rescue during the battle. Not base relocation. That makes sense.

    It's also possible there are troops on those transports that could try and invade the Death Star if it came to it.
     
  13. The Senate

    The Senate Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 12, 2020
    Lol this isn’t battlefront
     
  14. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    Hahaha. I think an early draft of Return of the Jedi - when there were two Death Stars in the movie - had rebel troops invade one. Actually that was a lot like the Star Destroyer attack in The Rise of Skywalker.
     
  15. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    To do what? Fire on it? Hide behind it?
     
  16. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 13, 2014
    Except that for immediate rescue, you're now open to enemy fire while in the process of the attempted rescue. Having the transports in the battle leaves them open to immediate destruction, and nowhere to escape to should your ship take damage. I know it's the first thing I'd be going after if I was in a battle against them. Cut off one of their means of rescue, escape, and survival.
     
  17. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 9, 2001
    In deleted scenes, Palpatine tells Jerjerrod to blow up the whole moon if the shield goes down. He does that to eliminate any hope Luke has that his friends will survive. The additional scenes with Jerjerrod are probably the best material cut out of Return of the Jedi. You se the rivalry between him and Vader, and Jerjerrod's ambition. But you also see that he has actual principles in his service to the Empire and is shocked and hesitant about the Emperor's order. He and the men around him look scared when they hear it. They can't believe he would blow up his own battalions on the surface that way. There is also a good bit when the Emperor's royal guards block Vader from entering the elevator to the Emperor's throne room.
     
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  18. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    Oh, I know about that from the Annotated Screenplays. I just don't remember him targetting Endor. Guess I'll have to go back and reread.
     
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  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the novelization, Jerjerrod has been given an "If the shield generator is destroyed, destroy Forest Moon" contingency order (which he initially questions) - but, once the Emperor's dead, he's downright vengeful, and eager to carry out that order.

    The Emperor hissed. "Your fleet is lost — and your friends on the Endor Moon will not survive..." He pushed a comlink button on the arm of his throne and spoke into it with relish. "Commander Jerjerrod, should the Rebels manage to blow up the shield generator, you will turn this battle station onto the Endor Moon and destroy it."
    "Yes, Your Highness," came the voice over the receiver, "but we have several battalions stationed on—"

    "You will destroy it!" The Emperor's whisper was more final than any scream.
    "Yes, Your Highness."




    Commander Jerjerrod sat, brooding, in the control room of the Death Star, watching all about him crumble. Half of his crew were dead, wounded, or run off - where they hoped to find sanctuary was unclear, if not insane. The rest wandered ineffectually, or railed at the enemy ships, or fired their guns at all sectors, or shouted orders, or focussed desperately on a single task, as if that would save them. Or, like Jerjerrod, simply brooded.
    He couldn't fathom what he'd done wrong. He'd been patient, he'd been loyal, he'd been clever. he'd been hard. He was the commander of the greatest battle station ever built. Or, at least, almost built. He hated this Rebel Alliance now, with a child's hate, untempered. He'd loved it once - it had been the small boy he could bully, the enraged baby animal he could torture. But the boy had grown up now; it knew how to fight back effectively. It had broken its bonds.
    Jerjerrod hated it now.
    Yet there seemed to be little he could do at this point. Except, of course, destroy Endor - he could do that. It was a small act, a token really - to incinerate something green and living, gratuitously, meanly, toward no end but that of wanton destruction. A small act, but deliciously satisfying.
    An aide ran up to him. "The Rebel fleet is closing, sir."
    "Concentrate all fire in that sector." he answered distractedly. A console on the far wall burst into flame.
    "The fighters in the superstructure are eluding our defense system, Commander. Shouldn't we-"
    "Flood sectors 304 and 138. That should slow them up." He arched his eyebrows at his aide.
    This made little sense to the aide, who had cause to wonder at the commander's grasp of the situation. "But sir ..."
    "What is the rotation factor to firing range on the Endor Moon?"
    The aide checked the compuscreen. "Point oh two to moon target, sir. Commander, the fleet-"
    "Accelerate rotation until moon is in range, and then fire on my mark."
    "Yes sir." The aide pulled a bank of switches. "Rotation accelerating. Point oh one to moon target. Sixty seconds to firing range. Sir, good-bye, sir." The aide saluted, put the firing switch in Jerjerrod's hand as another explosion shook the control room, and ran out of the door.
    Jerjerrod smiled calmly at the view-screen. Endor was starting to come out of the Death Star's eclipse. He fondled the detonation switch in his hand. Point oh oh five to moon target. Screams erupted in the next room.
    Thirty seconds to firing.
     
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  20. jc1138

    jc1138 Jedi Grand Master star 2

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    Nov 16, 2004
    To me, the rebel transport is just a simple transport vessel, not a combat or specialized ship. It highlights the rebel's reliance on whatever they could get their hands on instead of the top-of-the-line craft of the Empire or Republic.

    Also, I imagine a vast array of starships across the galaxy, some fancy and sleek like the Queen's ship in TPM, some souped-up and pieced together like the Falcon, and some down-and-dirty like the rebel transport.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
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  21. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

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    Apr 25, 2004
    Endor is pretty freaking huge compared to the Death Star, and the Death Star is pretty close to it. Is it possible to destroy Endor without having massive chunks of planet flying out and destroying the Death Star itself?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  22. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 9, 2001
    This might be one of the reasons they cut the scenes, because audiences might wonder why the commander isn't afraid destroying the moon will damage or destroy the station as well. For that matter the Emperor might wonder the same thing. The depiction is of an unnaturally low geosynchronous orbit. However this is Star Wars and it's more important that things should look cool than conform to physics. There was a whole thread on the old usenet newsgroup about how pieces of the Death Star should fall down to Endor, burn the forest, and destroy its climate. Of course we did end up with a sizeable chunk of the Death Star crashing down somewhere in the sequels, but for one or more unknown reasons, they indicated (in extraneous materials) that this was a different habitable moon.

    EDIT: One possible reason is that the chunk is from the top of the Death Star II, so it would presumably fly away from the sanctuary moon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
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  23. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000
    Nice. This never occurred to me. A micronarrative quick fix to salvage suspension of disbelief could be that Jerjerrod would of course move the death star out of danger close range before firing. SW77 novelization gives a notional safe distance of something like six earth diameters.
     
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  24. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 14, 2018
    In the novelization version of the scene, it's pretty clear that Jerjerrod knows the Death Star is going to be destroyed in any case, and he wants to get revenge of a sort by blowing up Endor before he dies. So moving the Death Star out of damage range would be irrelevant.

    Whether the scenes as written and filmed have that subtext is another question.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
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  25. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000
    That works for Jerjerrod. It was the Emperor who gave the order. So it's a problem to handle the impression that the Emperor was clueless that the death star would need to be moved away to get a safe shot. Whether or not Jerjerrod wanted to do a Ricardo Montalban impression. It does not make sense to me that the Emperor wanted to do a Ricardo Montalban impression. If the Emperor's order was calculated for effect upon Luke, that suggests that the Emperor had intentions and capability to get himself and Luke off the premises. But it could also be that the Emperor, knowing his own game would be up, was spitting at thee-ing Luke from hell's heart. It's so dense.
     
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