Why was Darth Vader not beyond Redemption but Palpatine and Exar Kun were?

I'd like to think that Palpatine and Kun were such powerful Sith Masters that they are strong enough to not be tempted by the light. Just like how a fully trained Jedi Master can not give in to darkness, a fully trained Sith Master should not be able to give in to light.

 

Count Dooku was a fully trained Jedi Master, and it seemed like Ajunta Pall was a fully trained Sith Lord.


Everyone is born good, but flawed. No one is born evil. What you are born with, and your experiences through life, can shape you one way or another, but ultimately there is always a choice.

I kind of feel bad for Palpatine, being raised a Sith wasn't his fault. True he did have a choice, but fallen Jedi like Anakin and Jacen are a little more responsible in my opinion.

 

I'm afraid I don't share your same pessimistic and fatalist view. People can be what they choose to be. Genetics and environment play huge rules in our behavior, but that's not to say someone cannot overcome their roots. Apples can fall far very far from the tree.

And, Yes, Charles is right that Lucas did set out to prove that no one who is evil was born that way. Choices take you where you are.

 

Let's not fluffify one of the best villains of all. I think Palpatine likes the Dark Side so much and takes such pride in the Sith teachings that the mere thought of joining the light is revolting to him. The perfect Sith.

 

Kreia put forth that the Jedi Council was wrong - "Revan" was always the same person before and after the 'erasing'; that Revan's motives for falling to the Dark Side was because he uncovered the threat of the "True Sith" and thought that doing so was the only way to save the galaxy. While some might not take Kreia's statements at face value, she did raise interesting points in the differences between Revan and Malak...

 

I'm not. I just pity that he was raised in an evil environment from probably the day he was born. He's definitely evil, just not as responsible for his evil as Vader or Caedus or any other fallen Jedi. He liked the dark side, took pride in the Sith, and found the light revolting mostly because he was brainwashed by the Sith since he was a child.

 

This is definitely true, but I'm not sure its brainwashing either.

He was raised into evil, it's true.

But he reached into its depths greater than anyone else.

Like Voldemort, he had a rotten deal, but his hatred was better than any before.

 

Didn't Vodo Siosk-Bas try to redeem Exar Kun? It didn't work out too well for him, Exar had jumped headlong into the power of the Dark side and he wasn't giving it up for anything.

Palps loved evil too much. Great villan.

Vader still had some Anakin.

 

I always liked Exar kun, because until he killed Vodo, he actually wanted his master to join him.

 

Yep, he seemed to think that the rest of the Jedi would join him as well.

Maybe a ToTJ Infinities where Vodo chooses to join him and leads the rest of the jedi along would be cool.

 

Eh. He did, but it was too little too late by that point.

 

Now I've never read the comics/graphic novels/those paper things that aren't books, but it seems to me as soon as Vodo knew what was going on he went and tried. I may be mistaken in that because I haven't read them, but that's how it seems to me.

 

No, he was aware that Kun had some issues from the get-go. He dealt with them by making snide comments, goading Kun into a duel, and then peevishly insinuating that Kun cheated when he got his ass kicked. Then he let Kun run off and go on a quest for Sith artifacts for reasons that aren't entirely clear.

Then, once Kun had gone well and fully Sith, Siosk-Baas got all mopey and set off to deal with Kun. To be fair, he made what seemed like a genuine attempt to clean up his mess (which is more than can be said of certain sandy-haired farmboys), but by then it was too little, too late, and Kun killed him for his trouble.

 

That was always the weirdest part of DLOTS. Vodo loses to Exar Kun in that training duel, tells him he has an empty place in his heart, and leaves it as that. Pretty much the very next page, Exar Kun is suddenly off looking for Sith artifacts without offical sanction and lying about it. True, his messing around with the holocron earlier demonstrates his interest in Dark Side artifacts, I guess, but it's still quite jarring.

Vodo: You're evil.

Exar: No I'm not.

<next scene>

Exar: Can I see your evil arifacts, plz. They be interesting.

Yeah, Exar could have been lying to his master from the get go, I suppose, but I never really got that vibe from him.

 

evil he is

 

Exar Kun's motivation was curiosity of all things. We don't know if his title of Jedi Archaelogist was completely made up or not but it was entirely possible that he was actually one in addition to his later title as a Sith (in other words---Exar was a much more cool Disciple).

His original goal was to just check out Freedon Nadd's tomb and the artifacts of the Sith then come back to his master to say "I'm an expert in all things Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, and Dark Side. Make me a Jedi."

While it's a bit of a stretch, I think Exar was really attempting to push Vodo to knight him and this was about pressing his Master's limits. If Exar could study the Dark Side and be ready, he was a Knight.

After tasting the Dark Side on Onderon, he wasn't really thinking clearly and it was all downhill from there.

I'd discuss this in the Exar Kun "To Fall So Far" thread but there isn't one

 

While that makes sense regarding the character AND the plot, it would have really helped if they stated that, in even hinted at that, in the actual text. We know Ulic wants to infiltrate the Krath (and thus, the Dark Side) to avenge his master and destroy the dark side. We know this, because the text clearly states it. Repeatedly, I'm pretty sure.

While you could infer that the writers were being more subtle with Exar's motivations, given the simplistic narrative the writers had demonstrated throughout the rest of the story, it seems weird that the reader would have to fill in the blanks for that part.

Like I said, your idea makes sense, I just wish the writers had actually made that clear in the story like they did with just about every other plot point. Consistancy, people!

 

Didn't Master Vodo basically chide Exar at the start of the Sith Lords about his interest in Sith knowledge? Over him consulting a holocron about Naga-Sadow?

 

The curiousity motivation is established, though it's a little flimsy. The 'I SHALL LEARN COOL STUFF AND SHOW VODO THAT I'M AWESOME' idea, while it would fit really well, isn't.

I just find it jarring that we go from Exar training, to him just showing up somewhere else. I guess I feel there's room for a missing scene of Exar telling Vodo that he's leaving him for this reason or that. It's omission hurts the plot. Thas'al.

 

I think you're partly right. Darth Vader was EVIL, he was one of the most destructive forces to ever inhabit the galaxy, though he never reached the full potential of his Force powers. He was EVIL, he did have compassionate traits, but make no mistake, Anakin was a psychopath. Palpatine is evil incarnate, so theres no reason for him to have human traits, hes practically the devil himself

 

Before I get accused of bringing up a point already expressed, I only read the first post and not the others.

I believe it's because Vader was a victim, as was Ulic. Palpatine used Vader's weakness against him and corrupted him efficiently that way. Ulic was drugged for the first few weeks or months by a cult and corrupted by it and then by attraction to the cult leader, which destroyed his will to fight the Sith. They were both used by people who chose their path and were at heart greedy and selfish. Revan was redeemed through deception because of memory wipe, without which would have made him probably unredeemable, and Malak became disillusioned by the time of his death but not redeemable. Palpatine was just purely a Sith, and wouldn't have turned against his own teachings because he believed in them with all his mind.

That's at least how I look at it.

 

As it now stands, Vader was duped into becoming a Sith. When he was sobbing on his knees, I got no evil vibe from him whatsoever... he seemed pathetic at best. If Lucas intended for Vader to come across as stupid and desperate, then it was a job well-done. Fast forward ten minutes and a few dead younglings later, and the newly named Vader was definitely wicked, if not evil. The Vader I grew up with, was nothing like the wuss that Lucas made his PT version out to be. OT Vader would destroy PT Vader, just for crying... but I digress.

More than anything, Vader failed himself on Mustafar and because of that, was full of self loathing for all his days as a Sith. He regretted much of what he had done, it just took him twenty years to reach that final conclusion. Through the PT and the Dark Lord, this re-written version of Vader never fully embraced the darkside, I came away with the impression that it was basically all he had left.

I never really got into Exar Kun's story, I read the comics and wasn't all that impressed.
So I'll leave him alone.

IMO, Palpatine enjoyed being evil...
How can someone be redeemed when they have no desire to change their ways?
Or better yet, why would anyone WANT to redeem Palpatine?

***

Anyone else ever watch ESB, then ROTS right afterwards?

 

Actually, that's exactly it. He wanted to show that evil people were impotent and despicable.

 

i agree palpatine loved evil so much the nere thought of him turning to the light would make him sick.

 

Palpatine is just there to create problems for the heroes and make the story go. GL didn't care about him beyond that.

He didn't even give him a proper name, really.