Why wasn't Jacen redeemed?

People didn't want Jacen to live so he could go unpunished. People wanted Jacen to live so we could have a capable, complex, and interesting "non" villain for once and good story lines to follow. Jacen was doing evil things, yes, but he was doing them for good reasons. The whole "do the ends justify the means?" argument.

As for Jacen being redeemed, well, that is up to reader opinion until something cannon is revealed.

 

Jaina isn't Judge Dredd. She shouldn't be prosecutor, jury, judge and executioner. Courts can punish, the Jedi can forgive utterly if the person has earned it. Either of these or both should have waited Jacen after Jaina had come to the conclusion that she had basically won. I don't support moral ambiguity in this. People have to be held responsible for their actions, but it can't mean unnecessary death sentences like this. Instead we should see in SW true justice and forgiveness, if the person has been redeemed. Judge Dredd is a fine character, but only in his own fictional universe.

 

A major reason Jacen was killed instead of redeemed was because DR and, I would argue, the bulk of fandom wanted to decisively close the book on his particular chapter of the EU and move on.

I don't think the EU would be well-served by keeping Jacen active, personally, especially with another major change in his characterization. Basically, going into Betrayal, we had four major characterizations of Jacen Solo:

1) pre-NJO Jacen Solo
2) Vector Prime-Traitor Jacen Solo
3) Traitor-TUF Jacen Solo
4) Dark Nest Jacen Solo

A lot of YJK fans hated the way he was characterized in the NJO from VP onward, and considered it a problem of poor characterization. Others got off the bus with Traitor, and there was no way they were going to be happy until the Potentium perspective was thoroughly discredited, which would require Jacen to fall. Others (including me) thought that Traitor opened up a wealth of storytelling possibilities, and were equally adamant that Jacen could not be allowed to turn dark, because in so doing DR would basically be throwing away the most interesting thing to happen to the EU in a long, long time in favor of more of the same. Those fans (including me) basically got off the bus with Dark Nest, when it became increasingly clear that DR had given in to the whiners... errr, I mean, had decided to turn him dark.

This vindicated a lot of people, but still, you had issues: why kill off Anakin Solo and make Jacen the hero of the NJO if he's only going to turn to the dark side afterwards? Who's left out of the YJK generation if Jacen goes? Etc etc.

So, coming into Betrayal, you've got a whole lot of people who are unhappy with Jacen's characterization, feel very strongly about it, and don't agree with each other. Lots of people have been disappointed by changes to the character, but they're all disappointed by different changes and they all have fundamental differences about where they would like to have seen the character go. At the same time, people are starting to get burned out on him and kind of just don't care anymore. He's like an open sore on the EU: no one's happy with where he is, there's no way to make anyone happy with his characterization because he's been too tainted by the stuff people don't like, and every time someone pokes at him it's irritating.

After DN, there's just no plausible way to avoid turning Jacen dark in the first place even if they wanted to, so there are really only two options storywise: redemption or death. Redemption not only keeps him around, in the spotlight, honking people off and adding to the feeling of "Jacen fatigue," but also throws in yet another major shift in his character to polarize people with.

A major selling point to killing him off is that killing him off just ends it. His characterization has been murky, inconsistent, and deeply polarizing - or, less politely, totally botched - and it would be best to just put his character arc out of its misery with a clean break.

 

If we switch this thread into a "Why was Jacen killed?", the simple answer would be to put Ben Skywalker in the spotlight as the main male hero from this point on. I don't agree with this idea if it's true, but I'll accept it.

 

Diz's notes on Jacen apply just as well to Luke and most of the rest of the cast, though. Star Wars characterization now is neither self-consistent within the EU or consistent with the movies. And this sticks out much more in a multi-author-series format than in standalone books and trilogies.

Personally? It's Zahn's fault, for giving the twins silly 80s names that began with the same letter. Their individual characterization really suffered due to the twin thing.

 

Why do you guys care so much about this anyway? The guys dead, its over. This is why i don't like it when they kill major characters off, because its all you guys can talk about.

Never mind that the galaxy is now in the hands of a former villian(Dalaa), never mind that Allana now has the name Amelia and is living with the Solos and Jacen had a vision about her before he died, never mind that Ben lived up to his fathers legacy and successfully redeemed someone, never mind that the One Sith are still out there somewhere plotting and scheming, never mind that Luke acted like a real Jedi Grand Master in this book but at the same time gave off signs of falling himself. No, its all about Jacen and why he had to die. Because he was an unrepentant jerk thats why. Its not that hard to figure out. And knowing the way you guys like to complain, you'd probably be crying a fowl if he was redeemed and call it a cop-out.



Since DR probably has the new contract, the question you should be asking yourselves is not why wasn't Jacen redeemed, its whose going to fall next and what the next tragic story that will undoubtedly depress us even further will be about.

 

What you said made alot of sense.

Ironicly alot of the VP-SBS stuff could have been fixed if the Writers (Excluding Greg Keys cause he obviously did hei reaerch, and Denning) just Red YJK and JJK.

And yeah the Vergere's teachngs did open up alot of new possibilities.

 

I never liked Jacen. I didn't even think I was supposed to. Having not read the YJK books all I knew of him began in The NJO. To me, he was conflicted like a kid. Sulky from the start. Anakin was the star. That was clear. There never really was any doubt even while reading the first two or 3 books of the NJO that Jacen had problems. And problems I had trouble caring about. To me he was a ready made villian and Traitor sealed what I knew had to be. I mean Jacen was so darn boring. Thank the Force he went dark otherwise his thin characterization would have stymied any writer.

What do you do with a problem like Jacen? Make him evil. Without evil, Jacen was nothin' to me. Anakin Skywalker, Solo and Luke were freakin' Dostoyevsky characters by comparison IMO.

 

Would it shock you that some people certainly do?

My reaction was actual surprise people weren't happy.

I had assumed people thought Jacen was the same as Grand Moff Tarkin by this point or General Grevious.

Evil Evil Bad.

Jacen has been with us for a couple of decades. It's natural.

 

That was rather out of line and unnecessary.

 

With Jacen, it mainly comes down to he showed little to no remorse and also his own reasons for falling. His grandfather, Anakin Skywalker, fell to try and save Padme, but once Padme was dead, there was nothing left to bring Vader back, until his son popped up, and then Luke used that bond to pull Vader back from the darkside.

In Caedus' last moments, he was trying to warn Allana, but at that point, it wasn't a choice between living or saving his daughter, Jaina was mostly, slowly, winning the fight, so the main question was when Caedus would die, so he might as well warn Tenel Ka earlier at least. Vader had a choice between either remaining as the Emperor's right hand, or saving his son, and Anakin chose to save his son at the cost of his life.

Also, Caedus absolutely believed he was right. Originally, he had a vision of him killing Luke if he didn't fall, but that vision seems to have been forgotten mostly by subseuent books. Every time someone tried to tell him there was something wrong with him, at best he either laughed it off, ignored them, and at worst, he was planning to kill them now or later. Everyone who knew him, from his parents, to Wedge, to his old friends, were horrified at what he was doing. Well, everyone except Tahiri, but she wasn't really right in the head either.

I think Invincible makes it clear the difference between Tahiri and Caedus too. Tahiri's still horrified at what she's becoming, but she goes on for what she thinks is a chance at bringing Anakin back, but instead, she finds out she can't, but she thinks she's already beyond reach, but when Ben offers her a chance, she takes it and surrenders. Caedus laughed at any offers, or he just used those chances to advance his own agenda, and while he regrets setting Kashyyyk on fire, and killing a good man like Isolder, he just shrugs and continues onward a few seconds later, and he doesn't seem too unhappy about it. With Vader, he appeared arrogant, but in private, he was a sad, unhappy creature. We've seen Vader enraged, obsessed, but never happy. Caedus was happy at nearly achieving his goal of galactic domination, since then he could shape the galaxy however he wanted.

Honestly, I havne't liked Jacen since the NJO began, and even after Traitor, I still didn't much care for the character, and from DNT onwards, its been obvious he would fall (and its kinda painful watching how long everybody else is in denial about it), so just good riddance to his character.

And Han and Leia seemed sad about the death of their son, but for them, in every way that really matters, their last son has been dead to them since Inferno. Sadly though, they've both become somewhat... used to losses, with how Han won't allow himself to break like he did after Chewbacca's death, for Leia's sake if for no other reason, and Leia has also... gotten used to it too somewhat. She's already cried, and grieved, and now both of them were just waiting for the body to die. Han says he prefers to think Jacen never came back from that duel with Onimi, but mainly its just that Han and Leia have already given up on their last son. Its a tragedy, but neither are strangers to tragedy and simply have to deal with it.

 

Wow. Wonderful insights into the whole matter.

 

Jacen...killed....billions.

Fondor
Kashkyyk
2 Jedi Councilmembers

Are you from the "Forgive Darth Malak" branch?

Your view Jacen did nothing is fanfic like my view that everybody hated the Empire.

 

Jacen Killed a few Hunderd thousand.

He set a few Forest fires on Kayssyk,we all know ISDscan do far worst than set forest fires.

He Killd 2 jedi Council men? so what? I can Go out an Kill 2 people in hand to hand if my Combat skill ouclasses them. I know he Killed Mara. But who was his second kill?

As for Fondor. thrutfully I didnt bother reading Revelations? I decided long ago not to pick up anything by Karrin Traviss. I'll looks up the details on Wookiepedia. But if the planet is naything but a cinder, i will not be impressed.



DARSIED, MR SINISTER, SCORPIOUS, THE BORG QUEEN, palpatine, THANOS, AHNNIHELUS, RED SKULL, DR DOOM!

these guys are true villians. When they go down their fans dont say "Why wrent they spared"they say "How could they go down so easy when in book/episode...."

Jacen as Darth Ceadus isnt a Grimjow Jagerjack, he isnt even freaking Emplate (Who really let his sister have it)


Hell he aint even the punk Vulcan (sorriest summers ever), hell he is beraly even a Bilar Crais....

My taste in villiny seems diffrent from yours.


Hell the Fearsome five wouldnt even have him as a member. The Joker wouldent even bother laugh at his carrer.

 

Very good insight

 

He burned the forests of Kashkyyk. Which, frankly if it only is one side of the planet is probably hundreds of millions killed. Just imagine if someone slaughtered everyone in America or Russia or China. Then he blasted Fondor to pieces, slaughtering countless cities and pounding what he could into rubble.

He killed Mara Jade, I point out and while he only assisted in it, he's as responsible for Tresina's Lobi's death as Sidious was for Order 66's victims. It's only luck that he wasn't responsible for Kyle Katarn's death to get a third victim.

I don't get why people want to downplay Jacen Solo's Dark Achievements. He was a monster who crushed all of his enemies and nearly had the entire galaxy pacified by the time of Invincible. I remind you that he was a participant in the genocide of the Verpine warrior cast as well.

Seriously, he wasn't Vader or Sidious but he was as dangerous as Malak or Kun ever was.

 

In my experience there's no such thing as luck. It was Kyle's Sheer Awesomeness.

 

Really? Has there not been at least a dozen characters who turned away from the grasp of the dark side.
And how many more never did? How many basically good or misguided soldiers were never even given the chance?

Everyone has the potential for redemption, but it is still very rare.

And, as an aside, it strikes me as somewhat selfish of heroes that take several risks to redeem a friend or family but carelessly kill underlings who are, as stated, probably far better people more deserving of redemption...of course that is the power of personal attachment...and of being a more important character.

 

Uhhmmmm No, you better re-read Tempest, he didnt Assist in Lobi's death, He wasnt there, he didnt set Lumyia on her, he wasnt even aware of her. Lumyia and the bug-slut did lobi in together.

Give credit where credi is due. He didnt kill her through association. Hell she wasnt even on his personal radar.

 

Jacen was a nother stich in a glearing Fact about starwar.


a Complete and utter lack of a rogues gallery. AT least for the NJO (the organization)

You Have Vader and Palpy and Thrawn


Nom Anore, Shimmera, and Tsavong Lah,

and Krayt and his crew.


Everyone else is weak sauce, villian of the weak, one book wonder.



Unless they stop invicability sheilding Luke, are really give Him and leia, A terror inspireing, Spine Braking. "Is that your best shot son?" baddie this craptacularness will never end.

 

Of all of Jacens deeds his murder of Nelani is the highest in my book. He didn't order her death from orbit, or kill her in rage, or in defending himself. It was simply cold blooded murder, he never regretted it or gave it a second thought. That to me is when Jacen Solo died and became Darth Caedus. It is ironic, his worst deed was the one no one cared about. We spent half the series looking to prove Jacen killed Mara in self defence while not one Jedi ever looked into what happened to Nelani. At least with Tebut Luke actually acknowledged that "Yup, he's a problem". The jedi never mourned over the people of Fondor, or all the "missing prisoners", they just gave Jacen chance after chance. We talk about redemption for Jacen? What do you tell the familes who lost loved ones to Jacen?

Luke- He decided to be good now everyone, haven't you Jacen.
Jacen- I'm good now sorry everyone.
Luke- Thats good enough welcome back to the order.

We wonder why the galaxy doesn't like Jedi.

The fact that Jacen was not redeemed gives warm feelings to my heart.

 

If Malak or Kun acted like Jacen did as a Sith, we wouldn't take them seriously either. He's more of a Daala.

In general, Jacen lacked badass.

 

Because the people of the GFFA are witless sheep?

Ta'a chume, Gilliad Palleon, and eveyone who has ever heald the Title Moff, has done everything that Jacen did, and then some. Even that Fat self procliamed admiral Zinj tosted colonies. and left none alive. Dalaa blew up Mon Cal cities,


The Fey'la clan helped destroy Cammas, the Imprials Mombarded Bothawui. in the GFFA the liitle people clarely dont matter. Why bother pretending that they do?



The Vong turned Ithor into a lifless cinder, and joe public blamed corran horn.

 

Fey'lya and his clan were innocent of Caamas.

Ta'chume is brain dead.

Pellaeon is now dead too.

 

Yo' I am just sayng What SotP and VotF suggested

Ta'a Chume is brain dead? so what? she lived to see her Great-grand daughter being born and pt a hit out on her. Thats a LOOOOOOOOOONG carrer.


Pelleon was nearing 100 if he wasnot in the triple digits already. Again LOOOOOONG carrer.