PT Why Yoda doesn't beat Sidious

Although the films don't get into too much some of Legends books talked about when is it OK for a Jedi to kill and how they kill someone can be important as well. I remember in the war with the Vong Coran Horn faces a Vong warrior and he hesitates a beat before he kills him, because he wanted the warrior to know that Coran had won. This hesitation is considered to have touched the dark side. A later book addresses a similar situation in the the killing of Luminara.

So I think that is why Yoda didn't win. He couldn't have one because he has been compromised. Sidious has beaten him, out maneuvered him, killed his friends/family almost in an instant. Yoda can't win because he wants to kill Sidious very badly. I think Yoda knows that he has to try to defeat Sidious, and hopes that he is either powerful enough to overpower Sidious or has more knowledge of the force and is able to out maneuver him.
When Sidious proves he his up to the task Yoda knows that he can't kill Sidious without turning to the dark side, so he retreats and goes into hiding as he has seen a different path to victory in his visions in season 6 of the Clone Wars.
As a dark lord that feeds off anger, I wonder if Yoda's rage at Sidious made him more powerful or powerful enough to at least be Yoda's equal.
So that is why I think Yoda lost because he wanted revenge on Sidious and that either held him back or made Sidious more powerful to even the odds. Conversely I think that is why Obi-Wan beat Anakin as he did not want to kill Anakin, which was more in line with Jedi way.

 

Obi-Wan beat Anakin because of several reasons, one; it's because Obi-Wan is one of the greatest sword master in the entire Jedi Order, easily one of the top 3, Windu said that no one is as good as Kenobi when it comes to Soresu style, that includes Yoda and himself. So he is a very skilled swordsman, especially during the late Clone Wars if not early Clone Wars and before that.

Secondly, he knew Anakin's fighting style better than anyone, so that also gave him an advantage against a superior sword fighter. Anakin is a more powerful fighter than Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan knew Anakin's moves, and with the help of his defensive fighting style Soresu, he managed to stay alive in the fight against a superior sword fighter due to that knowledge.

Thirdly, styles make fights. We know Muhammad Ali is a better boxer than Ken Norton, but whenever he fights Norton, he gets into trouble because Norton's weird fighting style is hard to deal with for Ali's fighting style. Kenobi has two lightsaber fighting style masteries; Ataru and Soresu. Anakin's fighting style is Djem-so, it's a very good style against someone like Dooku's elegant makashi style, since Djem-so relies on physical strength, and counter attack movements. But it's not good against Soresu, which is the most defensive fighting style, where doesn't give any counter attack openings to Djem-so, and Ataru is a very mobile fighting style, and Anakin's Djem-so lacks mobility, thus Kenobi's fighting style was also good against Anakin's fighting style.

And lastly, Obi-Wan also knew Anakin would be overconfident due to turning to the dark side, and Kenobi used the environment against Anakin. He lured Anakin to take the higher ground at the end of their duel, when it wasn't even necessary to take it. We know Anakin was even unarmed during the early of their duel, and Anakin still managed to block Obi-Wan's attack in this disadvantageous position, it was a worse situation than the last one.

Spoiler

So it was Anakin's overconfidence actually beat him, not Obi-Wan's superior fighting skills. Anakin could do many things in that situation, and he wouldn't get cut by Obi-Wan. But when Anakin tried to take the higher ground due to his overconfidence, Obi-Wan sliced him up with ease.

As for Sidious vs. Yoda, Yoda is definitely not more powerful than Sidious in the Force. In fact, it's debatable that Sidious might be more powerful than Yoda in the Force. And Yoda never faced a power like Sidious's before, he wasn't expecting that. He bested Count Dooku before, but Sidious's power was far beyond of Dooku's.

''Dueling with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious was a very different experience to fighting Dooku. Yoda was almost overwhelmed by the sheer hatred and fury of the Emperor.''
--- Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake Part 21 (2014)

 

@Love SW2012

I think you are on to something about the Yoda vs. Darth Sidious Fight that The Rise of Skywalker puts into a new light.

It sounds like Darth Sidious has inside of him the souls of many many past Sith Lords whose bodies died but their spirits live on clinging to life inside the body of the current Sith Master. When a Sith Master is killed this collection of Sith specters posses the Force user who killed the Sith Master. That person who won the fight becomes the newest Sith Master.

Usually this is the Sith Apprentice. It's possible however that any Force user powerful enough to kill a Sith Master becomes the Sith Master.

Yoda recognizes there is no way he can win the fight. Either Darth Sidious kills Yoda. Or Yoda kills Darth Sidious. But Yoda would need to tap into the Dark Side to kill a foe as a ferocious and powerful as Darth Sidious. Tapping into the Dark Side at the moment Darth Sidious is killed opens Yoda to possession by the Sith Specters. And Yoda knows even he couldn't resist the temptation of the dark side once those dead Sith Lords bond to his soul. So Yoda would become the new Sith Master if he kills Darth Sidious.

That's why Yoda and Obi-Wan go into hiding and never confront the Sith again. Because they can't win. Either out come makes the Sith more powerful. A foe is killed. Or the Sith upgrade to a more powerful master.

 

The first post doesn't mention anything about the Sequel events and I am pretty sure when Lucas made the Prequels, he never thought that Sidious could survive the way he did in the Sequels, so that was not the original idea in the Prequels. There can't be a bridge theories between the prequels and the sequels for that reason, we should take them separately. And your theory here makes no sense because of what we've seen on screen in the Sequel movie as well.

The former Sith Lords can't possess other people bodies randomly if those people don't use the dark side or without performing the Sith rituel. That's why Sidious couldn't take Rey's body when Rey refused Sidious's offer and helped Ben Solo. Sidious didn't want to die at the hands of Rey after that point and he tried to kill them instead, and Rey killed Sidious by using the light side (deflecting lightning also counts as killing him), as well as Sidious couldn't take Vader's body, because Vader was using the light side, and he even sensed Vader's possible betrayal according to the TRoS novel, and Sidious never thought of taking Vader's body, because he simply couldn't if the situation isn't suitable for him to possess the other bodies.

Spoiler

TRoS Novel specifically says that Sidious was ''trapped'' inside of a broken cloned body, and he couldn't get away from it by using another random body, or another Force user body, and this is the same guy who created a powerful Force user such as Snoke, and despite that, he still can't repair his own body on his own, or with finding another Force user body. Nothing worked for him and he was in a broken and damaged form. And Plagueis was possibly laughing at Sidious according to the Novel. Sidious only needed the perfect Palpatine clone, so he could pass his powers to that body, which was Rey. Because Rey was his blood. Even other clone bodies couldn't work, and it's possible that he couldn't even take Ben Solo's body for that reason, because he had lot of opportunities to do that, we've seen that Ben Solo wanted to kill Sidious, even by using the dark side, but Sidious didn't want that, because as I said, he could only take Rey's body, and that's only if Rey accepted it his offer. To say that he can take any body, which has nothing to do with Sidious's genes and Sidious's blood makes no sense according what we've seen in the movies. He simply can't take it. He didn't even take Ben Solo's body at the beginning of the movie when Ben Solo was ready to kill him by using the dark side. He couldn't even take Rey's body when he subdued Rey and Ben Solo with the Force, instead he Force drained them to repair his own broken clone body.

Also the novel makes it clear that Sidious was searching a suitable body, even his own clones and his own produced son wasn't suitable for his own body. Only Rey was the suitable one for him, no other body could do it.

 

I think Obi-Wan managed to beat Anakin because the latter's emotions had gotten the best of him. It did help that Obi-Wan was familiar with Anakin's fighting style. Then again, Anakin was familiar with his style. But Anakin's emotions did get the best of him during that duel. Nor did it help that he also allowed his arrogance to get the best of him, even though Obi-Wan had the high ground. The Jedi Master was a very lucky man during that duel. This almost reminds me of how Obi-Wan had almost lost his duel against Darth Maul in "The Phantom Menace". Obi-Wan had allowed his anger over Qui-Gon being struck down to get the best of him. At first, it seemed as if he was winning. Then Obi-Wan's anger and arrogance made him careless and Maul nearly killed him. If Obi-Wan had not managed to collect himself and if Maul had not become so cocky, the latter would have killed the former.

 

Yoda lost because the script dictated he lost...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

@Erkan12 - I can't put that much faith in a novel.

Not random bodies. The Sith only want an upgrade. That means a more powerful Force user than the current Sith Master. I doubt it would even work with a regular person.

Rey or Kylo Ren would have to kill the Sith Lord. The ritual part is not needed. That's how Yoda could become a Sith Lord. He opens himself to the Dark Side to kill Darth Sidious, which also opens Yoda up to be possessed by the Sith.

This is basically what Yoda was trained for when he had to confront his dark side self on The Clone Wars. Yoda learned to except he has a Dark Side and can't destroy it that inside himself.

Sidious never wanted Rey to kill him. That was all part of the ruse to stoke the Dyad so Palpatine could rejuvenate himself.

Rey killed Sidious and died in the process. Doing that on the Sith throne world of Exegol with the Jedi Spirits there killed the Sith. Rey dying means there was nothing for the Sith to possess. It was a dead end with no where else to escape for the Sith.

Vader was a downgrade, so Sidious went to Exegol instead of hitching a ride in that so to expire husk.

 

I guess I should clarify that it wasn't the only reason that Obi-Wan won, but the contrast helps my point about Yoda. Also I agree with your statement about Anakin losing because of himself, and that Obi-Wan knows his fighting style, but I don't agree with you on him being a sword master. In Episode II Anakin faired better than Obi-Wan did against Dooku, and he improves enough to beat Dooku in Episode III. Even if Obi-Wan is in the top 3 sword masters as you say he still is not in Anakin's class, when it comes to light sabers.
1. Yoda
2. Mace Windu
3. Anakin
4. Kit Fisto
5. Obi-Wan?

 

I've no idea why would Kit Fisto even be close to Obi-Wan, what did he even accomplish? He isn't even part of the Yoda-Dooku-Qui-Gon-Obi-Wan-Anakin Jedi line. So I don't know where did you get that Kit Fisto stuff. Stunt coordinator, and the guy who actually wrote the fights in the Prequel Trilogy, Nick Gillard specifically said Kit Fisto is tier 7 as a swordsman, while Obi-Wan is tier 8 as a swordsman.



Also Anakin wasn't better than Obi-Wan in Episode II, the Clone Wars novel even said Obi-Wan > Anakin during the early Clone Wars.

"Take him!" Ventress ordered the super battle droids. She ran for a side exit. Anakin Skywalker was a powerful Jedi, but she knew Obi-Wan was even stronger.''
Source: The Clone Wars Adapted Novelization (2008)

Obi-Wan was also emotional and he didn't want to kill Anakin as well, it was a very different fight for him. While Anakin wanted to kill Obi-Wan because he already turned to the dark side and he almost killed Padme. So that goes for the both sides, which is why I didn't mention that emotional part, because Obi-Wan was in disadvantage as well.

Anakin can know Obi-Wan's style, but it doesn't matter. Because Obi-Wan was fighting defensively, and he was fighting tactically while Anakin was overconfident.

Do you have any basis for these claims? I've no idea where you are getting all of these from. You're in no position to deny the canon novels when you are making baseless claims which contradicts with even what we've seen on the screen in the movie.

First of all, Sidious could steal Anakin's body when Anakin accepted to join the dark side in Revenge of the Sith but Sidious never did that. Before even Anakin get cut in pieces. So that argument is baseless.

In right here;



And he says he still can't use Plagueis's powers, which means Sidious doesn't have any access to the past Sith Lord's powers and their knowledge, TRoS novel also says the same thing, it says that Plagueis's power perhaps remained as a secret and he was perhaps laughing at Sidious.

Secondly, the novel specifically said Sidious's clone bodies wasn't ''ready'' even in the Return of the Jedi and it didn't work well when he tried to escape to his own clone body. What gives you the idea that Sidious could posses other bodies that 20 years before the Return of the Jedi, during the Revenge of the Sith? It's a completely baseless claim.

Vader was a downgrade but his dying, broken clone body was not? What you say makes no sense. Are you telling me that Sidious would prefer to get inside of a broken, and dying clone body instead of possesing Vader's body?

So this dying clone body was better than Vader's body;



Again, it's baseless. This body can't even walk properly, it doesn't even have eyes, it's rotten, while Vader's body was still ok with the help of cybernetics.

You mean ''Yoda learned to accept he has a Dark Side''? Yes, it's true. That doesn't mean he can't beat the dark siders because of it, he obviously can. Windu did, he could defeat Sidious too, but he just failed, because he wasn't powerful enough on that day, so he escaped.

Again, I will ask that what's your basis of your theory. Sidious specifically said he wants Rey to kill himself with a Sith rituel and he wants Rey's permission to do it.

Sidious is either a fool, so he killed Rey while he could take her body, or he just can't possess Rey's body without the rituel and without Rey's permission. The logical choice is the latter. Sidious knew Rey was trying to kill him, and he didn't want that, instead he killed Rey alongside with himself, that's a stupid move if Sidious just can possess Rey's body when Rey kills him. He continued to shoot Force lightning at her. He could just stop and let Rey to kill himself, but he didn't. So that excuse doesn't make sense as well.

He could also possess Kylo Ren's body at the beginning of the movie, but instead he said Kylo should kill Rey. So he didn't let Kylo to kill himself, because he couldn't possess Kylo Ren's body as well. It looks like only Rey's, because Rey was part of Sidious's clone experiments and her body was suitable for him, and only Rey's body. Which is why Sidious's only feat is escaping to a clone body of his, not another person's body, or Rey's body, which has Sidious's own blood and his own genes.

It's completely baseless to claim that Sidious can take other people's body other than his own clones and Rey's. There are connections between Sidious and Sidious's clones / Rey. With other people, there is not.

Especially saying that Lucas knew Sidious was going to survive so he made the Revenge of the Sith according to that is baseless as well. Lucas said Sidious died in Return of the Jedi, and he made Revenge of the Sith later, then they resurrected Sidious 15 years later in the Rise of Skywalker. So there is no connection between Revenge of the Sith and The Rise of Skywalker. Even if there was, Sidious started to make his plans during Return of the Jedi, not during Revenge of the Sith (20 years before), because he sensed Vader's betrayal, that was his plan. He had no plans to do that during Revenge of the Sith. So that body possessing ability, is not going to happen during Revenge of the Sith, perhaps in Return of the Jedi. But then he can only do it with his own clone bodies, or specialy experiment productions such as Rey, which has his own blood and his own genes.

 

I believe Obi-Wan's emotional state was more or less under control until after he had chopped off Anakin's limbs during their Mustafar battle. Leaving Anakin on that lava bank to slowly burn to death has led me to believe that Obi-Wan had finally allowed his emotions to get the best of him. If Obi-Wan was truly one of the top three lightsaber duelist, I don't think he would have been defeated by Dooku on two separate occasions or had so much trouble with Anakin in a state of emotional turmoil.

Windu failed because Anakin took him by surprise and chopped his sword hand off.

 

Sidous wouldn't steal Anakin's body at that time because Anakin would be a downgrade. Sidious is the top Sith Lord. He will not willingly give up being the top Sith. The other Sith inside of Sidious want to be inside the most powerful person possible. But that person needs to prove they are the most powerful. The only way to do it killing the Sith Lord. The Sith aren't giving it away. It's taken.

And it's not just about the body. It's also about the mind. It's about skills. The current Sith Lord is the dominate personality over the other Sith Lords. Anakin is nowhere ready to pass up Sidious in that way. But with his powers unleashed it wouldn't take all that long for Anakin to get there.

Sidious is lying. Or telling a half truth. It's all about holding knowledge over Darth Vader so he will do what Darth Sidious wants.

YES! The Clone body was still working 36 years after Return of the Jedi. Vader was dead like half an hour later. Also Anakin may not have opened himself in the Dark Side enough when killing Palpatine for the Sith Specters to transfer. Regardless Anakin was about to die.

But that body isn't on the second Death Star and going to be dead within the next hour.

Yoda accepted that he would always have a dark side. And that this part of him could be exploited. Sidious threw the fight with Mace to lure Anakin to the Dark Side. Had Anakin not intervened and Mace actually was able to kill Darth Sidious, then the Sith Spectors would have taken over Mace Windu who had opened himself up to the Dark Side with murder. It's also possible Sidious had other tricks that would have stopped Mace and his lightsaber before killing him. Either way it's a trick.

When Yoda and Darth Sidious start to fight, Sidious tells Yoda "Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us." I think he's really saying - No matter who wins this fight, neither one of us will be the Sith Master very long."

We see that it's hard for Sidious to just turn off his lightening and it does have a damaging effect on him. What Sidious doesn't know in the moment is Rey has like a dozen Jedi spirits with her and supporting her through the Force. Without them Rey would have been fried. Instead Palpatine is erased.

Palpatine wants to rejuvenate himself. He sends Kylo Ren out so he can return with Rey as a team alined in the Force. Then Palpatine will sap the power of the Dyad to rejuvenate himself.

Lucas said a lot of stuff. He was a showman selling a story. And he changed his tune a lot. We know from Gary Kurts that George Lucas's plan from the earliest days was always to have the Emperor be defeated once and for all in the final film - Episode 9.

Lucas left other hints. Return of the Jedi Special Edition replaced the Ewok song at the end of the movie with The Emperor's theme song in a different key. The Emperor's theme is also reworked to play over the victory parade at the end of The Phantom Menace. Both times the movies are telling he's still out there. Rey's theme is also a reworked version of the Emperor's theme.

 

I am not saying Lucas has never changed his opinion, or he is right about everything when it comes to Star Wars. Yes, Lucas changes his opinion from time to time. That's not the point.

The point is, Lucas didn't make the Revenge of the Sith with the intention of Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious, because Sidious could possess Yoda's body. When he made the movie, there was no intention or any idea like that, that came up with Sequel trilogy after he sold Star Wars to Disney. So Yoda lost because simply he wasn't powerful enough on that day, it has nothing to do with Sidious's new ability which came from Sequel trilogy, and even in Return of the Jedi, he wasn't ready. How could he be ready to do that 20 years before the Return of the Jedi, he couldn't when he wasn't ready. He wasn't even ready to do it 20 years later, which is why he ended up with a dying, broken clone body.

He would definitely die in the Prequels or before the Return of the Jedi. We also know Sidious has grown stronger in the Force in Return of the Jedi, so he can't escape to his clone body in the Prequel trilogy if he dies. He would die just like he died against Rey. So that was not the case at all.

Anakin wouldn't be a downgrade, he could use Anakin's full potential, I've no idea what you are talking about.

There is no other Sith inside of Sidious's body, we know that he can't even use Plagueis's knowledge in both Revenge of the Sith and the Rise of Skywalker. He doesn't even know what Plagueis thinks about Sidious's situation. ''the Sith lords'' inside of Sidious's body is metaphorical.

And Sidious didn't prove he is stronger than Plagueis, he killed Plagueis while Plagueis was sleeping, so again I've no idea what you are talking about.

That's baseless. Do you have anything to prove this claim?

Sidious specifically said Princess Leia interrupted his plans when she stopped Kylo from killing Rey.

Sorry but you are making up all of these things you say, I explained why Sidious didn't throw the fight against Windu before.

Right here;

-----

Sidious isn't lying, again this is another baseless claim, I just showed you a part from the Rise of Skywalker novel, it clearly says Sidious can't use Plagueis's powers. And Plagueis is not inside of Sidious's body.

Thanks to Sidious himself. If he can just take Vader's body, he wouldn't try to kill Vader. Just like he wouldn't try to kill Rey. As I said, that makes no sense.

 

Agreed that Lucas didn't directly come out and say this in Revenge of the Sith. Thou he might have already been laying the ground work. I do think he is directly setting it up in The Clone Wars. Watched with The Rise of Skywalker Yoda's lessons are lead right into this and Exegol.

That's why Yoda and Obi-Wan don't try to attack Vader or Palpatine a month later. Or find more Jedi to take him on as a larger group. There is a centuries old knowledge gap between the Jedi and the Sith that the Jedi don't even know about. It's not until Qui-Gon's discovery of how become one with the Force - become a Force Ghost - do the Jedi close that gap and have a way to actually defeat the Sith. The biggest story of Star Wars Episodes 1 to 9 is the Jedi discovering how to defeat the Sith and how they did it.

My hunch is when the Jedi thought they killed all the Sith 1,000 years before The Phantom Menace, the Jedi who killed that 'last' Sith Lord then became the Sith Lord. So there was a wolf among the sheep dogs.

The Rise of Skywalker tells us. All the Sith are inside Darth Sidious. They don't die. Their bodies die, but the midichlorians that make up their 'souls' live on in the current Sith Lord.

That's exactly how he proved he was stronger. Not all strength is physical power. The Sith Master is so dangerous, powerful, and smart the apprentice is never going to be allowed openly become powerful enough to kill the master. The master will kill the apprentice before they can become a rival. So the apprentice must outsmart the master to kill them.

Kylo Ren didn't outright kill Snoke. He tricked Snoke. Desception is part of it. We also see Darth Sidious order Dooku to kill Ventress. That's so Dooku and Ventress together can't over power him. (It might also have to do with Mother Talzin and Darth Maul. But that's another post for another time.)

Anakin needs to earn it. The Sith don't want potential. The Sith Lord needs in the present, in the here and now. Darth Maul had lots of potential, but Obi-Wan killed the Sith Lord before Maul realized his potential.

Kylo wasn't going to kill Rey. He was going to turn her to the Dark Side. He pursued and pushed Rey for the first hour plus of The Rise of Skywalker. He is pushing her to the Dark Side. Leia wills herself to become one with The Force just as Kylo Ren over powers Rey. Rey is cornered, beaten, and out of moves. Was Kylo going to kill Rey in that moment? Or was Rey about to turn to the Dark Side?

It's turn. In fact in the movie Rey still does turn to the Dark Side. Rey's next move as soon as Kylo relents is to grab his Red Lightsaber and kill him. Rey actually turns to the Dark Side in that moment. But she immediately is reached by Leia and regrets her action. And Rey has the power to undo her mistake.

That's how Sidous interrupted his plan. He wanted Rey and Kylo Ren as a Dark Side pair to confront him. Now he needed a new reason to lure them to Exegol.

Do you see how much more power Darth Sidious throws at Yoda than he does Mace Windu. Darth Sidious is holding back. He's faining weakness as bait for Anakin. And a whole lot of Sith Lords are inside Sidiou's body.

When Palpatine rejuvenates himself in The Rise of Skywalker he immediately goes back to looking like he did at the end of the duel with Mace Windu. It's likely Mace wasn't wounding Palpatine, but Palpatine is revealing his true form. After the fight Palpatine is not even winded let alone injured.

The thing is Sidious doesn't want Rey's body or Vader's body. And Vader's body is no longer an option after Mustafar. Palpatine wants his own body. If Sidious dies and the Sith go into Anakin or Rey, then Sidious is no longer the majority voice of the Sith. No longer the dominate personality. He's just another dead Sith in the crowd. He wants to stay as the main guy.

 

The movie says ''my spirit will pass into you... as all the Sith live in me... you will be Empress.'' that's it, where do you get all of these ''they don't die'' thing? We've the novel as an additional source, and you're denying the novel.

All Sidious said, all the sith live in me, which looks like metaphorical. Otherwise he could know Plagueis's secret, and Plagueis wouldn't laugh at Sidious due to Sidious failing to possess a new body. And Plagueis couldn't live inside of Sidious body according to the novel, because it clearly says Plagueis wasn't expecting Sidious's betrayal, otherwise he could save himself just like Sidious did. That's canon.

Again, what you say makes no sense otherwise Vader also proved he is stronger than Sidious, just like Sidious proved he is stronger than Plagueis, if cheap-shot victories counts as being stronger than the master. It does not. Sidious couldn't possess Vader's body, and Plagueis couldn't possess Sidious's body, that's canon.

Why do you think Sidious wanted Anakin in the first place? Because of Anakin's potential.

Again, your arguments makes no sense. You are saying Anakin needs to earn it, while Rey didn't earn anything, Sidious just said Rey should kill him so he could take Rey's body. Anakin could do the same. And it's obvious that Anakin was stronger than Rey during Revenge of the Sith. Yet Sidious didn't tell Anakin what he said to Rey. Because there was no such a thing, and Sidious can't take other people's body, all he did 20 years later, escaping to his own clone body, not to another person's body. And Rey was a special case like his own clone bodies, due to Rey being Sidious's own blood, he could only take Rey's body if Rey accepted it.

When Sidious shot lightning, Windu could easily lost his control of his lightsaber. He could die there. The novel clearly says that Sidious's lightning was so powerful that it could bend Windu's lightsaber. Anakin couldn't even look at it when Sidious uses it's power, it was too powerful. You should look again, the lightning he used against Windu, was stronger than the lightning he used against Yoda when he disarmed Yoda.

There was no guarantee that Windu could deflect Sidious's lightning, so he wasn't faking it. Windu couldn't even know Sidious could use lightning, it was the first time Windu has seen it, it could catch him off-guard, and he could kill Windu easily. But Sidious failed to do it.

Palpatine was clearly wounded against Windu, he died the same way against Rey, deflecting his own lightning against him.

Sidious is just serving to the dark side, which is why he wanted Kylo Ren to kill Rey, and when Kylo failed, he tried to take Rey's body, but Rey refused it, so he couldn't. Then he used Dyad to repair his own body. If Kylo Ren killed Rey, he couldn't repair his own body, since there won't be any Dyad left, and he couldn't take Kylo Ren's body as well, he himself said Kylo will be the new Emperor. That's something he never accepted with Anakin and Vader. Because he wasn't trapped inside of a broken, dying body in Return of the Jedi and before. When Kylo failed to kill Rey, Sidious was helpless until he repaired his body with the Dyad. Sidious obviously give up on being the Emperor if Rey accepted to be the Empress, or if Kylo killed Rey, Kylo would be the new Emperor.

And again; I've no idea where you are getting ''majority voice of sith'' thing, since you said you are not using the novel too, I don't know where you are getting all of these things... There is no such a thing as ''majority voice of sith'', it was just metaphorical for all the Sith is living inside him, as we know Plagueis's power and his voice didn't belong to Sidious's according to the novel. What Sidious meant that, he was the last Sith, just like Rey was the last Jedi.

 

I think it's literal. Not a metaphor. The Sith hang on clinging to life as specters inside the Sith Lord. It's their michlorians. Sort of the opposite of a Force Ghost.

I think Plaguis was on to something new. Something Palpatine almost got right / sort of got right. That is actually body transfer. So instead of the current Sith Lord becoming another voice in a mod of Sith Lords in the current Master, Plaguise would actually have taken over someone's body, but replace that person's body with their own. They could be the Sith Master forever, never getting replaced by the one who killed them and join the mob.

Vader in that moment was stronger than Sidious. (Also I think Yoda and Obi-Wan as spirits were blocking Sidious's ability to see the future, which leveled the playing field during the fight.) But Vader was also mortally wounded. It was very unSith like what Vader did. He willing sacrificed himself.

The Sith didn't want to possess Vader's body cause he's not an upgrade after Obi-Wan chopped him up.

Because of what Anakin could do for him.

Sidious doesn't really want Rey to kill him. It's a ruse to get Kylo and her teamed up and alined in the Force. That maximizes the power of the Dyad, which allows Sidious to rejuvinate himself.

Palpatine's face changed, but he does appear wounded in any way. He's not even out of breath. Also Palpatine is faking that he is too weak. He had plenty of power left. It's like there was no limit to the amount of power.

Sidious wanted Kylo Ren to turn Rey to the Dark Side. Then for Kylo Ren and Rey as a team to try and kill him. Palpatine couldn't tell Kylo to do this.

 

He didn't really want Kylo to kill Rey.
That is why there is exposition using Dio's info stating Ochi had been ordered to bring Rey to Exegol when he killed her parents.
And 99% sure Rey would literally become Palpatine's host, yeah.

 

That was years ago. It's when Rey was still a child, who wasn't totally impressed by Luke's Jedi achievements yet and she could still be easily trained as a Sith from a young age, instead of letting her to be a Jedi. After TFA, it was too late. She was already a Jedi in heart, and she couldn't be turned. Which is why Sidious wanted her dead.

Sidious not only said once, he said twice in different occasions that Kylo should kill Rey,

Spoiler

Spoiler

He even threatened Kylo, he said he is going to turn his fleet against Kylo if Kylo doesn't kill Rey.

And then he said Leia interrupted his plan (he is talking about when Kylo was going finish Rey, Leia distracted him).

Spoiler

His original plan was forcing Kylo to kill Rey. Then he changed his plan because he had no other choice.

And he said Rey was going to be the Empress, not the Emperor in a different body. It was metaphorical. Which is why he said ''you will take the throne'', ''you will be Empress, we will be one.'' He doesn't say ''I will steal your body'' or anything like that, he is talking about Rey's individuality.

It's metaphorical, I just proved it with canon novel. Plagueis wasn't part of Sidious's body, and Sidious wasn't even able to use Plagueis's powers. Sidious was just Sidious. Just like Rey was Rey, just because she felt all the Jedi for a while, that doesn't mean she is always in ''I am all the Jedi'' mode. Just like Sidious isn't all the Sith in reality.

You don't get it, or you are doing it on purpose. I am telling you a very simple thing. If Palpatine can possess other people's bodies, he wouldn't kill Vader. He would let Vader to kill himself, just like he wanted Rey to kill himself. But he doesn't do that; because Sidious can't posses other people's bodies as you believe. That's what I am trying to explain it to you, which is why he couldn't possess Yoda's and Windu's bodies as well, just like he couldn't possess Vader's and Rey's, which is why he tried to kill them instead of letting them to kill himself. I think this is very clear and understandable.

All Sidious did was escaping to his own clone body, which was prepared before Vader's betrayal, and he was expecting it. And again, what you are saying is baseless (other people blocking Sidious's vision) because the novel clearly says Sidious has foreseen Vader's betrayal, which is why he arranged a clone body to escape, which is why despite knowing that Vader will betray him, he couldn't possess Vader's body, which is why he tried to stop him and he failed, just like he failed against Rey.

And I just explained Kylo thing above, not only once, he said twice Kylo should kill Rey, otherwise he was going to turn his fleet against Kylo's fleet, he even said Leia interrupted his plan by stopping Kylo from killing Rey. That's just obvious in the movie. Sidious was going to make Kylo as the new Emperor if he killed Rey.

 

Plaguise could save others from death - not himself. We don't know if Palpatine could do this or not. He was stringing Anakin along. Did he never have the knowledge or did he later lie about having the knowledge? Either way Palpatine is being deceptives.

That's what makes life after death for a Sith and life after death for Jedi polar opposites. The Sith never actually die. They are without bodies but still mortal. It's like the midchlorians they had get trapped in the current Sith Master. It's awful but like Darth Maul the Sith refuse to give up life. They refuse to go to the here after and give up their power. Even if it means being trapped in someone else their greed to exist keeps them clinging on.

The Jedi give up all greed and self when they become one both spiritually and physically in the Force. They give themselves over to the Force. They are extremely powerful but limited in how that is used. The Sith would have no interest in that sort of power.

Sidious does not want to die. Vader only becomes the Sith Master if Sidious makes a mistake. But once Vader made into a cyborg he can never be the Sith Master. At that point Vader is too weak to ever be the Master.

Sidous wouldn't posses Yoda or Mace Windu. All the dead Sith inside of Sidious plus the newly dead Sidious would merge with Yoda or Mace. It would be a new Sith Lord. With those spirits pushing them, the temptation of the Dark Side would be too much. But Sith Yoda wouldn't be Darth Sidious. It would be an all new Sith Lord that is half dark Yoda and half all these dead Sith Lords.

I dont' think Sidious forsaw Vader's betrayal. Not until it was too late to stop if he saw it at all. Sidious didn't even see that Luke was on Endor. There was blind spot happening at that time. The Clone body on Exegol was a sad backup. A fail safe that kept Sidious and the Sith from dying.

Sidious didn't want Vader's junk half robot body. Now the Sith would have loved to get into Yoda, if Yoda was strong enough to kill Darth Sidious.

Sidious is telling Kylo one thing knowing Kylo will do something else. Sidious knows Kylo is going to try to over throw him the same way Kylo fooled Snoke. Kylo also knows that Sidious is lying to him. Why would Sidious give Kylo Ren a fleet to rule the galaxy and not command it himself?

We see in the other movies how Sidious sets up these situations and his apprentices are compelled carry then out. Vader wants Luke for himself but must bring him to the Emperor. Vader knows someone is going to die. Dooku was set up against Anakin. What did Dooku think was going to happen there?

Time and again we hear Sidious tell a character to do one thing when Sidious's motive is for that character to do something else.

I really think Yoda could have become a Sith Lord if he killed Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious would be dead, but there would be a new Sith Master in what used to Yoda. And inside Yoda would be all these dead Sith Lords giving him knowledge but also driving him mad.

 

Ok, whenever it doesn't suit your argument, you're saying that Palpatine is lying. What if he is lying about all the theories that you're making? How can you know that he is not lying and he is not all the Sith, how do you know? Did you see the spirits of the Sith lords? No. But why are you believing Sidious then you are saying ''he is a liar''?

I will tell you what it is certain; because the canon novel tells us that he doesn't have Plagueis's power, and Plagueis is a different individual who is laughing at Sidious due to Sidious failing to create a perfect clone for himself when he predicted Vader's betrayal.



''Plagueis was having the last laugh after all.''

''Nothing worked.''

So it's not easy to possess another clone body, let alone creating a perfect clone, not even his ''son'' could be that perfect clone body, only Rey could.

And you are talking about taking over a Jedi master's body, and it's 20 years before the Return of the Jedi, when his technique wasn't even perfect for his own clone bodies. This arguments is completely baseless and makes no sense.

Rey killed Sidious, as well as Vader. We've seen Vader, he was still the same guy, Rey was still the same. So there is no proof that past Sith lords could take over their bodies. Absolutely there is no proof. In fact, I just proved Sidious didn't have the knowledge and the voice of Plagueis at all, the novel told us.

We also know that Sidious didn't know about Dyad, because Sidious was surprised when he Force drained them, as well as Kylo said Sidious doesn't know they are dyad. Sidious also said Kylo should kill Rey, twice. Not once, he said it twice. He even threatened him if he doesn't kill Rey, then Sidious said Leia disrupted his plan. This can't be more obvious.

He wanted Rey dead until Kylo betrayed him, and he didn't know they were a Dyad. If he knew, he would say the same thing that he said to Vader, when Vader found Luke. He would say bring Rey alive, instead of killing him. Because he wanted Luke alive, he told Vader bring Luke alive, and then he paid the price. He didn't want to make the same mistake again with Kylo, he should've told Vader to kill Luke. But Kylo failed because of Leia, after Kylo's failure, the only thing Sidious could do is trying to turn Rey to the dark side. That's the end of it. He never planned to repair his own body, because he didn't know they were dyad which is why he wanted Rey dead.

 

Yes. I believe those hooded ‘Sith’ in the gallery are the dead Sith Lords. Only on Exegol can they appear like that personified to others. I think Sidious however sees them all the time.

Because Palpatine is up to something in the OT and PT. He puts himself in situations where he appears vulnerable. (Mace in his duel, yoda duel, vader and luke)

I don’t think he is. I think he is faking vulnerability. He’s got some sort of trick or failsafe. We never knew what it was untill The Rise of Skywalker. He still doesn’t say it. The context clues for it are all there. It also answers why Jedi Force Ghosts are necessary.

Agreed. I’m not sure Palpatine can posses another’s body as in it is still Palpatine but in someone else's body. The clone seems to be a blank mind. Still not sure he’s actually even technically alive. Could be a reanimated corpse. Like a puppet. That clone sure isn't living on it's own without outside help.

No Palpatine's not taking over the Jedi’s body. All the Sith are merging with the Jedi’s soul. That turns the Jedi to the dark side. In the Rise of Skywalker movie Palpatine never says he’d take over Rey’s mind and be Palpatine in Rey's body. Palpatine only says that all the Sith would pass into her. (I think that is in part of trick. But that trick could go one of two ways.)

Correct. Vader wasn’t the Sith Master. The apprentice doesn’t have dead Sith souls in them. Only the master. So Vader, Dooku, Maul, were all still the same guy. No Sith Souls merged with their soul.

Maybe. What seems like surprise could actually be Palpatine's physical reaction to being rejuvenated at the same moment he is speaking.

Of course. Sidious isn't going to tell Kylo. He needs Kylo to think he and Rey have one over on Palpatine. That they have an advantage. They are one step ahed. That's the trick Kylo is hoping to exploit to defeat Palpatine. They Dyad can beat him. At the same time Palpatine wants the Dyad to attack him so he can rejuvinate himself with it's power. If he tells Kylo Ren about it, then Kylo won't deliver.

It's misdirection to get Kylo to do what Sidious wants with out telling Kylo what Sidious wants. He told Kylo twice so kylo would work harder to break the orders. It’s all a way to push Kylo. It's manipulation and Sith trickery.

The plan was for Rey to turn to the Dark Side and have Kylo Ren and Rey attack Palpatine together in the Dark Side. With both of them alined to the Dark Side Palpatine could use the power of the Dyad to rejuvinate himself. Leia stopped Kylo from turning Rey to the Dark Side. (really Rey turned but immedately went back to the light.) Thanks to Leia Ben Solo turned back to the Light. Instead of a pair of Sith wann-a-bes, Palpatine was dealing with two Jedi. And he needed a new plan / new bait for luring them to him on Exegol.

Then why did Palpatine want Occi of Baston to bring Rey to him on Exegol? He doesn't want Rey dead. He just wants it to look like that. If Palpatine tells Kylo bring Rey to him alive, Kylo could very well kill her.

 

Sorry.

How is seeing some kind of statues is equal to seeing the ''spirits'' of the Sith Lords? It's definitely not.

It's not a matter of belief. I am asking what is your proof, since you are denying the other things that Sidious said when it doesn't suit your argument, remember, you said Sidious is a ''liar'' right? So there is no proof that the spirits of the Sith lords are actually exists. Because as you said Sidious is a liar, and there is no proof, and no one has ever seen them.

Vader killed Sidious. And Vader was still alive.

People even go far enough to discuss that Vader was technically the Emperor for a while, because Sidious was dead. And Vader was alive for a while.

https://boards.theforce.net/threads...the-last-couple-minutes-of-his-life.50047665/

According to you, even if a Jedi kills the Sith master, the past spirits sith lords can possess the Jedi's body.

And no Sith lord spirit possessed Vader's body, we've seen Vader when he was talking with Luke, he was the same guy.

Kylo wasn't trying to turn Rey at the end of their duel, he didn't even ask her to join the dark side, he just raised his lightsaber and he was going to cut the unarmed Rey, only then Leia disrupted it in the last second when Rey was ready to die and Kylo was ready to kill her. Not sure where you are getting all of these. You can look at it again.

Sidious ordered his men to kill them, what if they managed to succeed? So obviously Sidious didn't know they were Dyad. Not only because he surprised when he drained them, because he first said Kylo should kill Rey, and then he said again Kylo should kill her otherwise he was going to turn his fleet against Kylo, then his men and the Knights of Ren tried to kill Ben Solo. If Rey's Dyad power didn't work, Ben Solo was going to die at the hands of the Knights of Ren because Ben Solo had no lightsaber to defend himself against them, so no. Palpatine wasn't planning to take their Dyad powers, he didn't even know about Dyad, he was just trying to kill them, and several times.

That Ochi thing was years ago, before Rey was trained as a Jedi. When Rey was still a child. Why would Kylo kill Rey if Sidious said bring her alive? Did Vader kill Luke when Sidious said Vader should bring Luke alive? No. He did what Sidious wanted. Sidious could turn his fleet against Kylo anytime he wanted.

Sidious specifically said Kylo should kill her, so Kylo can be the new Emperor. And then he said to General Pryde, Leia disrupted his plan when she stopped Kylo from killing Rey. Why would Sidious lie to General Pryde about Kylo killing Rey? He ordered Kylo to kill Rey twice, then Leia saved Rey, then Sidious said Leia disrupted his plan which was Kylo killing Rey. I've no idea why you are insisting on denying this obvious thing.

 

Not the statues. Those guy in the robes who just appear behind Rey in the gallery overlooking the Sith Thrown. It believe those are the personification of the Sith "spirits" inside of Palpatine. That is "all the Sith". Those are the "dead" masters who are in Palpatine.

I think we do see them behind Rey. Also there are clues in Palpatine's behavior that hit to this being true. The way he seems hungry for Luke to cut him down. The same way with Anakin. It's the greed of those dead Sith Lords showing through. They want someone new to challenge. They want an upgrade if the other person can earn it.

Cool. Maybe Vader was Emperor for 20 minutes. But Vader was never the Sith Master.

Yes. That is correct. Palaptine did not want to posses Vader. It was a dead end. Vader would have be dead within the hour. Sidious sent himself and the other Sith Souls back to Exegol like a pac-man ghost who was just eaten. Long term it was the more safe choice for the Sith. So Vader was never the Sith Master.

However I believe if Yoda killed Sidious the Sith specters would have bonded with Yoda's soul and made Yoda the Sith Master. Yoda couldn't beat Sidious. The best he could do was walk away and wait for a better solution in the future.

We don't know that because we never saw what happened next. Maybe Kylo was too caught up in the moment, too angry and would have slayed her. Or maybe he'd of made the offer one more time, but Leia stopped him short.

Kylo dropped his lightsaber. And then Rey did turn to the Dark Side. She took Kylo's saber and she mortally wounded him with it. He got her. He pushed her and brought it out. Then Rey sense Leia and immediately regretted what she did. And unlike Anakin who could not undo cutting off Mace Windu's arm. Rey used the Force to heal Kylo Ren, in the process bringing Ben Solo back to the light.

That's classic Palpatine. He puts the people he wants in situations where they could be killed. If they are as good as they need to be, good enough for the Sith, then they will not die. It's like a test. Trial by fire. Palpatine's entire plan in The Rise of Skywalker is what George Lucas called a 'time lock'. The heroes are in a situation with limited time to solve. Palpatine can use that pressure to get them to do desperate or amazing things.

I think all that stokes the power of the Dyad. He needs Ben Solo and Rey tuned up and insync with the Force. He's maximizing the power of the Dyad so he can use it.

Why would Kylo kill Rey? For one thing Kylo might think Palpatine and Rey would team up against him. So he'd kill Rey to weaken Palaptine. Vader brought Luke to the Emperor knowing full well Luke was meant to be his replacement. But Vader "must obey" his master. Vader is really stuck. Palpatine is not Kylo Ren's master. Kylo Ren isn't half robot and vulnerable the way Vader was. Kylo Ren needs only obey himself. He is his own master, and he's out to keep it that way.

It doesn't sound very much like Palpatine to give away power. Why would a Sith Lord make Kylo Ren Emperor for killing Rey? Palpatine isn't generous.

Palpatine doesn't say anything to General Pryde about Kylo killing Rey. Palpatine says "She will come. Her friends will follow." That's all of it right there. Get all the Rebels to keep that time lock clicking down. And bring her other friend Ben Solo to complete the Dyad and have it there in person.

I think Palpatine's plan was for Dark Side Rey and Kylo Ren to confront him. They would try to kill Palpatine and take his power. That was his temptation for them. Power. Once they are both Jedi that temptation won't work. So now he needs to lure both of them there and the Rebels. Protecting what they love can be twisted to be the Dark Side.

But Rey doesn't even take that bait. Like Luke she lowers her weapon. Palpatine saw this happen before with Luke, so he's ready for it. He set it up to fall the same way.

The only time Sidious might have been in danger of dying (Until her really does at the end of TROS) is when he's fighting Yoda. The Sith would live on in Yoda, but Darth Sidious would be a specter inside Yoda. He would lose his seat atop the Sith Throne.

 

This is why I find Disney's decision to bring back Palpatine as the "Big Bad" in "The Rise of Skywalker" a dumb idea.

 

Here are my two cents on what I just read.

• Mace Windu was barely holding on to his lightsaber. I’ve seen the clip multiple times and he seems to struggle just to keep it from flying out of his hand. That’s how powerful Palpatine’s lightning is. It nearly overwhelms Mace and renders Anakin unable to see what’s happening.

• Sidious didn’t want Vader’s body. Not after Mustafar — dude was a charbroiled quadriplegic with third-degree burns, hooked up to dozens of electronics and couldn’t even breathe without the mask.

• Yeah, Vader killed Sidious. As ANAKIN SKYWALKER. Did we all forget the conversation he and Luke had? “I’ve accepted the fact that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.” He was killing Sidious out of love for his son, not to usurp Sidious’ position. He didn’t want to become a Sith Master. Hell, I believe either Lucas or Lucasfilms even flat out once said that Vader’s original intention was to throw himself down that reactor shaft along with Sidious, but couldn’t quite get over the ledge after the toss. Vader died the minute he grabbed Sidious and hoisted him above his head. The guy we’re seeing hanging over the rail, being carried by Luke, and dying on the ramp is Anakin Skywalker. His armor is just the physical representation of every bad decision he’s made the last 24 years.

• I accept that Sidious survived by nabbing his clone body.

• As for Kylo and Rey, here’s the gist of what I can understand.

- Kylo is ordered to kill the girl. He’s told this twice. This is the part that confuses me. I get that Kylo is his own man, and he probably wants Rey to turn for his own gains, but why would he then want to share whatever power Sidious has with her?

- Palp’s initial plan was to get Rey to turn to the Dark Side, which he very nearly succeeds in when Rey impales Kylo with his own lightsaber.

- Leia comes in, makes Rey regret her choice and she basically redeems herself and Ben Solo.

- Now Palpatine has to basically do to them what he tried to do with Luke three decades earlier: try to use their love of their friends against them. They don’t take the bait, so he’s just, ‘okay, die time.’

If his plan was to use Dark Side!Rey to help him rejuvenate his body*, it failed when she decided to become a Jedi instead. It wasn’t about possessing her, it was about using her newfound Dark Powers to help him regenerate.

* Now, maybe he did want to possess a younger body but that would require Rey’s permission, which she wouldn’t give since she’s obviously not a Sith.

 

I'm not sure Kylo really would share his power with Rey. That's his sales pitch, but he's using her. He needs Rey to kill Sidious. He doesn't think he can do it alone.

Once Sidious Kylo might change his plan. It's the same way Han said Snoke was using Kylo and would crush him when he didn't need him anymore.

Palpatine did rejuvenate himself before saying "Okay, die time." With Sidious back to 100% he didn't need Rey or Ben Solo anymore. From Palpatine's point of view he'd achieved everything he wanted. He had the of fleet Death Star Destroyers ready to roll out for his new Empire. His body was good to go. He lured all those who would oppose him to be destroyed.

If it weren't for Rey and those pesky Force Ghosts Palpatine would have gotten away with it.