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PT Why Yoda doesn't beat Sidious

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Love SW2012, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 9, 2017
    They are evenly matched, then after Yoda is blasted off the platform the shock troopers arrive which is why Yoda doesn’t keep fighting
     
  2. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

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    Mar 9, 2001
    I think it works just fine this way. Palpatine controls an Empire, Yoda just has himself. Look at Order 66, a Jedi can't fight everyone at the same time. That's why Yoda has one chance to take out Palpatine while they are all alone. He failed, not because Palpatine was stronger, but because time was on Palpatine's side. The longer the fight lasts, the more likely it is for others to get involved as well. Now, with Yoda being on the floor and Palpatine being way above him, Yoda would need to move all the way back to Palpatine, while Palpatine can merrily chuck things up him from the high-ground, and call in clones in the meantime as well.

    Being equals gives Yoda a chance at winning as long as the circumstances aren't stacked against him. But when he fell down and Palpatine held on, the circumstances went heavily in Palpatine's favour.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  3. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 9

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    May 18, 2017
    To me Yoda was overmatched and realizes this. Otherwise he wouldn't have waited 20 years to do something.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  4. HolyKenobi93

    HolyKenobi93 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Nov 15, 2020
    I get that this is supposed to be the case but I'm not sure the movie does the best job communicating it. I'd like to know what we see on screen that shows why Yoda leaves the fight when he does.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  5. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Sidious should have stayed dead after ROTJ, just as Maul should have remained dead after TPM. This is all convoluted nonsense.
     
  6. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 27, 2014
    Stronger how? It was because of Light Side Vader was able to destroy Palpatine in ROTJ, and Rey was able to destroy Palpatine in TROS.
     
  7. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    You'd have to ask George Lucas.
     
  8. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    You'd think Lucas would have shown Yoda hurt himself from the fall or show a bunch of clone troopers rush into the Senate chamber... but nah.

    That whole fight always just seemed like Lucas was checking off a box tbh.
     
  9. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004
    The shock troopers didn’t arrive when Yoda fell. Yoda left WAY BEFORE they arrived. Palpatine summoned them there to find Yoda’s dead body.

    Trooper: There’s no sign of his body.

    Mas Amadda: Then he’s not dead.

    Yoda left because he knows he cannot defeat the Sith Master. Even on a deleted scene when he was talking to Qui-Gonn, he said he’s NOT STRONG enough to defeat Sidious.

    From the novelization when Yoda fell, he was thinking this:
    The new Sith could NOT BE DESTROYED with a lightsaber; they could NOT BE BURNED AWAY by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light , the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself has become the the dark’s own weapon?”

    From Lucas of what he thought of the 2 most powerful beings in the movie. I know he’s a flip flopper and has changed his mind but he actually said this..I think it’s on the ROTJ commentary:


    "Well, he is like Yoda: Yoda isn't a Jedi, the Emperor isn't a Jedi. Yoda has mystical powers and it's the same thing with the Emperor; he's like the grand priest, but he's not the chief of the tribe. Jedi are the chiefs, they are the warriors who go out and fight with their swords. The Emperor and Yoda are the priest who are the spiritual chiefs; they have powers that are much stronger."
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  10. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    The clones not being there when Yoda fell isn't equal to them not arriving in the near future. Yoda still needed to get back up to where Palpatine was, which takes quite a bit of time. Even more so if he tried to take the direct route, which would require him moving upwards with Palpatine once again throwing stuff at him.
    The movie doesn't give any indication on how much time has passed between the scenes, or when the clones where ordered to come (or by whom). You also have to take into consideration that the scene actually was of the clones reporting to Palpatine, so they had already done the search for Yoda.

    That statement from Lucas doesn't really say anything about who is stronger. If anything, it hints at them being equal.

    There was no reason to show such a thing. Everything that needed to be told had been told, the rest was clear enough. One was high up in the air, and having an army at his disposal, the other just fell a long way and would have needed to move back up. If fighting on equal ground ended up in a tie, there was no reason for Yoda to assume that another tiring attempt to reach equal ground - all while running out of time - would have resulted in a different outcome. He had his shot at equal terms, it was inconclusive, any further attempt would come from a weaker position. At that point, thinking longterm was the much better option. None of that indicates that the two weren't equals.

    Not at all, no.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  11. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004

    Yup the Lucas quote I gave shows The Emperor and Yoda to be equals and way above the others.

    While the novelization, deleted Qui-Gonn Jinn scene and Lucas acknowledging that the Dark Side is stronger makes The Emperor the first among equals over Yoda.

    There’s a reason Yoda hid in Dagobah. And waited for Luke to do what he can’t. In movie rules where the main villain is the most powerful....it takes a Chosen One to defeat him or his own heir.

    Hence The Skywalker blood line and Rey Palpatine.

    “The Emperor knew as I did, If Anakin were to have any offsprings...they would be a threat to him.” Obiwan to Luke.

    If Anakin remained a Jedi and reached his full potential then he would be the one that can defeat the All Powerful Dark Lord.

    But since he was handicapped he couldn’t defeat Sidious one one one. He had to sacrifice himself and from behind just to defeat the Dark Lord.

    Even Rey Palpatine ended up dying herself just to defeat the Supreme Sith Master only to be brought back to life by Ben Solo.
     
  12. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 27, 2014
    I think the duel is intended to be a draw, but GL realized he wanted ROTS to be bleak and that the Jedi are losing on all fronts; this is their Purge. So Yoda falls further in climax and says “failed I have.” Its meant to be part of a larger theme in the film that the Jedi are as Sidious wished “caught off balance.”
     
  13. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Why not? Yoda's hiding from Sidious and trying to get away in the very next shot anyway. If you show Yoda getting hurt it explains why he doesn't just grab his lightsaber (which fell to the floor where Yoda is now at) and jump back up there and continue the fight. If you show clones rush in it shows that Yoda is now outnumbered and has to flee. Instead, we get neither. Does Yoda even look particularly tired? He seems sad that he lost, but Yoda himself is deciding (based on no outside factors) that the fight is over when he can easily jump back up there and continue the fight.

    I just have to wonder why Lucas didn't write it to where Yoda broke a leg from the fall or something. It would lend credence to why a Jedi Master, who can hop around like crazy, doesn't join the fight later in the OT.
     
  14. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Why did so many assume that Yoda was stronger in the Force than Palpatine in the first place? Because he was the good guy?
     
  15. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 27, 2014
    I don’t think there is an assumption Yoda is stronger. Equal on opposite poles of the Force, yes. There is Yoda’s chilling words to Luke on TOTJ, “Luke.. do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father’s fate you will.”
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  16. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 9

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    May 18, 2017
    Since watching ROTJ I always assumed Palpatine was on a whole nother level. Vader defeated him, but only because Palpatine did not see it coming and was so focused on killing Luke.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  17. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    I never even assumed they would fight each other physically in the first place. I looked at the entire PT as one giant game of chess between Palpatine and Yoda that Yoda lost.
     
  18. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2009
    Amen, sir. Thanks for getting it. I knew I wasn’t the only one that prefers dead characters stay dead. ;)

    I hear ya but I kind of felt that way about yoda too. A whole different level. Their fight at the end of ROTS was OK, I guess. Maybe a little underwhelming and I have to admit, Yoda does too much bouncing around like Q-Bert in these movies. It’s borderline silly looking at times. All good though. A few posts above someone mentioned and I agree that yoda does realize that he’s not winning this and just needs to move on. Palpatine has an entire army behind him. It’s a no win scenario at that stage.
     
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  19. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 27, 2014
    Interesting take. A view I propose is the Sith are stronger in Force powers and prowess, while the Jedi are stronger internally, morally, and spiritually. This can be supported by that the Sith seek all in this life because they have no promise of the Netherworld like the Jedi, this makes them refine themselves for conquest because there is no coming back after death. The Jedi on the otherhand does seek to serve others in this life and guard liberty, but they focused as much on the day when they will become One with The Force as seen in the last line of the Jedi Code, “there is no death, there is the Force.”

    Now Palpatine is an odd one, obsessed with immortality via essence transfer. But again that’s different than the Jedi, Palyps wants to stay alive forever in AGFFA, while the Jedi seek to become One with the Force in the afterlife.

    What makes Palpatine and the Sith stronger martially is they covet and cling to this life more than the Jedi. When you want to live you will fight harder and with more vigor than someone who is like Obi-Wan, willing to lay down his life so that Luke can learn Vader is his father.

    When the Jedi say the dark side isn’t stronger, take heed they mean its power stops upon death, they look at power beyond this life, the Netherworld. Not just this life.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  20. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Star War is fantasy space opera this is conveyed through visuals and the music. In this case even more literally so as Sidious and Yoda were fighting in the Senate which holds personal seat boxes that could actually be used at an opera while Duel of the Fates is playing.

    I don't know what more anyone could want. Yoda gave it his all and failed. He felt the power of Darth Sidious and decided that he simply couldn't overcome it so he left so that he could go into exile and have a chance to do something later.

    What better way to convey this visually than to have the parallel fights of Obi-Wan vs Vader while Yoda is fighting Sidious? Yoda's plan for the Sith to be defeated at the same time was the best one for that moment. Obi-Wan would have been no use so his best chance was with Vader.

    I'd say that Lucas didn't want to show Yoda outright losing because for one that 'd make it difficult for him to get away. Instead it was the closest thing to a draw but Sidious had the edge which Yoda realizes is only going to get larger. He saw that it wasn't going to be his destiny to defeat the Sith.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  21. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    That's my point, Yoda decided he failed, but he could have just jumped back up there. I understand the visual of Yoda falling and Palpatine remaining where he was in the senate pod, but it's not too logical if Yoda can just use the force to jump right back up there. And yet, for reasons we don't know, Yoda just decides that he has failed and runs away.

    Which is why I suggested he either breaks a bone from the fall or clone troopers begin to enter the senate chamber.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  22. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 27, 2014
    Plot, GL has to get Yoda to Dagobah.
     
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  23. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Exactly, which is why that fight has always felt like GL was just checking off a box.
     
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  24. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 27, 2014
    I’d have preferred if Palpatine and Yoda only use Force powers. I understand Yoda using his saber with his old Padawan Dooku who was a duelist, but I’d rather have seen the Emperor and the Little Green Friend throw down with only The Force as their ally.
     
  25. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    I would have preferred that they never actually fought head-to-head at all. They're battle was for the soul of the Republic... and Yoda lost.