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PT Why Yoda doesn't beat Sidious

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Love SW2012, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Not sure why this is a mystery for some.

    It's already explained why Sith Lords are stronger than the Jedi during the era of the Prequel Trilogy and after;

    ''Darth Bane had gained more knowledge and mastery of Sith techniques and power than anyone who had come before him. He used that knowledge and skill to change the Sith Order forever.''
    ----Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #022 (2014)

    ''The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new.''
    ----Source: Star Wars Episode III - Revenge of the Sith Novel (2005)


    "As they gained knowledge of the Dark Side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation."
    ----Source: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook



    Instead of seeing countless Sith, and multiple different Sith organizations attacking the Jedi order and other planets, and seeing countless battles between the Sith and the Jedi, the Sith decided that they can't win against the Jedi and others due to infighting. Because Sith lords also would fight with each other to get more power, while the Jedi don't fight with each other, so that naturally gives advantage to the Jedi.

    Sith made a new plan with Darth Bane, there could be only 2 Sith lords. And with this, with every generation, the Sith lords has grown more powerful. And with Sidious and his apprentices, (with the expection of perhaps Plagueis) we've seen the most powerful Sith lords ever against the Jedi. It's not that Yoda, other Jedi are weak, it's the Sith has grown more powerful than they were before.

    Could they beat them with different circumstances? Like cheap-shotting etc? Kenobi did it with a cheap-shot against Maul, when Maul wasn't off-guard he took both Qui-Gon and Kenobi at the same time and beat them, killed Qui-Gon and disarmed Kenobi, they had no chance of winning in a direct battle, or Windu used an amplification to defeat Sidious, Windu wasn't able to save any of his Jedi friends, all 3 died, only later he become more powerful during the fight due to other factors, but they couldn't do it again under normal circumstances. Which is why they don't win against Sith in a direct battle, when everyone is at their usual power level.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
  2. IJjones41

    IJjones41 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Nov 13, 2021
    Is there some kind of rule that Yoda was supposed to automatically win that duel?
     
  3. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004

    Yes of course they have limits. BUT Force Users are learning and mastering The Force to STRIVE for that Unlimited Power OR Knowledge.

    Impossible is a just a word that means it wasn’t achieved YET.

    The Jedi thought it was IMPOSSIBLE to communicate with the dead or come back from it YET they achieved it.

    Luke thought it was IMPOSSIBLE to levitate an X-Wing YET Yoda showed him it’s possible.

    “Don’t be too proud of this technological terror you’ve constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is INSIGNIFICANT next to the power of The Force.” ~Darth Vader

    Can Force Users move planets like they can with ships??? Not yet maybe never BUT that’s what they are STRIVING FOR. Of all the physical forces in the SW universe, THE FORCE is everything.
     
  4. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Apparently it's not totally different. Jedi can lift light object with little to know effort. Yet we see them physically struggle to move bigger/heavier things with the force.

    Crude Matter or not, they still are objectively made of crude matter and the laws of physics still apply to that crude matter.

    This is the same dude who failed to prevent the destruction of said technological terror because he got blindsided by a space cowboy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
  5. Darth Vader's Chest Plate

    Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Master star 2

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    Mar 18, 2013
    "This is the same dude who failed to prevent the destruction of said technological terror because he got blindsided by a space cowboy."

    Maurice?!?!
     
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  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Why would the Jedi strive for unlimited power? The Jedi have not been presented as people that view power as a goal unto itself. The Sith yes but not the Jedi.
    If a Force user could become so powerful to move celestial bodies, like crashing a moon down onto a planet or toss a planet into a sun. I think the Jedi would be horrified about that level of power and how much destruction someone could cause with that.

    Also I think you are doing a bit of "No limits fallacy" which means that an upper limit has not been clearly stated so you assume that no upper limit exists. Ex, in ESB Vader is able to block bolts from Han's blaster.
    But to take that and argue that Vader could blocks shots from an ISD and could even block the DS SL with just his hand. That is a no limits fallacy.

    We see Yoda and other Jedi move small objects with ease but strain with larger ones. So bigger mass/inertia takes more effort. Meaning that moving a planet would be beyond what they could do.
    Plus the Jedi have been around for over 1000 generations, so about 30 000 years and so far they have not come anywhere near this level of power.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  7. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004
    I said unlimited power OR knowledge….power for Sith and knowledge for Jedi

    And I’m going by what Yoda told Luke that weight doesn’t matter only in your mind.

    Baby steps of course…if they can levitate stones..why not people?? If they can levitate people…why not rocks?? If they can levitate rocks…why not ships?? If they can levitate ships why not planets?? Maybe never BUT them levitating anything at all is already defying physics in the first place. It has to start from something.
     
  8. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004
    Morals for the kids. Movies has to show that “good guys” has to be more powerful than the “bad guys” or at least win somehow at the end. They don’t want the kids to emulate the “bad guys”. Even though it is painfully obvious that the Dark Side is stronger and that there’s no Santa Clause or Tooth Fairy.

    Yoda knows he can’t beat the Dark Lord. There’s a reason why he went into hiding and pinned all hope to Anakin’s children.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  9. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 6, 2020
    but they dont defy physics. they simply bend an invisible thing using the midichlorians. but there is a limit for that.
    even arnold swarzenegger couldnt bend titanium pole.

    force users do not have superpowers. they have abilities others dont, the ability to "play" with the physical force known as "the force". there is a difference.


    what would require to control a planet ? its constantly moving on its axis, so the force user need to stop that. also, he needs to stop its circulation around the sun. and lets not forget the jedi himself is constantly moving because he obviously cant do it when he himself on the panet, he must watch it. the gravitational pull is just too great here. you see what im saying. you ARE asking the impossible.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  10. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Like I said I’m just going with what Yoda is saying here.

    So your saying Yoda was just talking out of his arse when he told Luke that there’s no difference between the weight of stones and the X-Wing when Luke told Yoda that he’s asking for the Impossible???
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Yoda also says that the Dark Side is not stronger, but that it is "quicker, easier".
     
  12. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004
    True. Lol
    But he also said to Dooku, “POWERFUL YOU HAVE BECOME, the DARK SIDE I sense in you.”

    Yup I guess Yoda was just teaching Luke to be optimistic about the Jedi.

    And what I took out of Yoda’s quote about the Dark Side NOT being stronger is just telling Luke that the Light Side is not a slouch compared to the Dark Side. That they are equal and that the Dark Side is not stronger but quicker.
     
  13. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    You said;
    Jedi are Force users and you argue that they strive to be able to move planets.
    Again, I think the Jedi would not look for that and would be horrified at that type of power and the destruction it could bring.

    In AotC, when Yoda confront Dooku, Dooku first throws rocks and small equipment at Yoda and Yoda can toss those aside with little effort. But when Dooku drops the big pillar, Yoda has to clearly strain to stop it.
    So AotC shows clearly that mass matters.

    Yoda's lesson to Luke was about how Luke had certain limitations in his mind.
    He could lift a lightsabre and small rocks because to him, those he could lift normally.
    But he could never lift an X-Wing normally. So that stopped him. He thought that the limitation of lifting things with the Force was what he could lift. Yoda told him that this was wrong, he could lift things he could not lift normally.
    But to take what Yoda said and argue that there is no limitation and Yoda could toss the DS into a sun if he so wished it, that is a no limits fallacy.

    Same with Obi-Wan's lesson in ANH, when Luke got his eyes covered, he thought he could not fight. But by letting go he could almost "see" the remote. But that does not mean that Luke would be able to have X-Ray vision or see things on an atomic scale.

    If a pebble is falling and you catch it and stop it from falling, you are "defying" the laws of physics. You stopped that pebble from falling with your own arm, powered by your body and controlled by your mind.
    Using the Force to interfere with physics is not that different, just on a somewhat larger scale.
    If an piece of iron is falling and you use a magnet to stop it, you defy gravity by the use of magnetism.

    In closing, the idea that Force users could become all-powerful Gods would not interest me and I think would be a "Jump the shark" moment for SW. Take ANH and the DS coming to destroy the rebel base. And the rebels are just about to have their briefing about the DS attack when Yoda teleports in and says, "Worry not, deal with this I will." And he gestures and the DS fly into the Yavin sun. And Yoda goes "Solved the problem I did, saved you are." And teleports away.
    Would not leave that much tension.

    Having all-powerful characters is VERY tricky to write. Take Superman, he got more and more powerful from the 40's to about the 80's. And then they realized that he was a bit over-powered and rebooted him and reduced his power considerably.
    Having the Jedi as powerful as the Q would, I think, not be a good thing for SW.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  14. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 6, 2020
    as i said before,
    luke spend months at yoda training daily. this is just one of the firsts (if not the first) of many lessons he recieved. the camera showed us just the tip of the iceberg of the jedi training.
    yes, he gave him a simple very general lesson about the force. because he pretty much knew nothing at the time. yoda taught him about the force and its limitation off-camera.


    but again, the force is not all-powerful. there are limitations. even the most powerful force user that exists in myths is limited.


    theres a huge difference. superman is a long running monthly/bi-monthly comic books starting in the late 1938. in order to keep a long-running action story interesting, the stakes must grow, and so are the enemies. and to win, the hero must as well. the same thing happened with dragon ball z. we got multi-dimentional destroyers from a kid who chops logs with his hands and practiced kung fu near his house in the woods.


    soap-operas mastered the art of "no-change and stay interesting". thats because its dramatic storytelling.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  15. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    Did Luke train for months with Yoda? This must have been covered before, but what is the in-universe timeline for Luke's training? It only seemed like a few days in the film, though it must have been at least a few weeks (the Falcon had to make it's way to Bespin at sublight speed, afterall). They should have had Luke grow a beard to show the passage of time.
     
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  16. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004

    Great question!! Yeah if we can calculate the time between Han and Leia left Hoth to escaping from the Empire in the asteroid fields to how long they stayed inside that monster to how long they traveled to Bespin all the way to how long they were prisoners of Vader.

    If we get that, then that’s about how long Luke’s training was…more or less.
     
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  17. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    But the problem is that IF the MF was limited to sublight speed and it got from Hoth to Anoat to Bespin with just slower than lightspeed travel. Then even having those three systems very close to each other, say half a lightyear between each one. And assuming that the MF is going at very near lightspeed. Then it would take a little over six months from Hoth to Anoat and a further six months from Anoat to Bespin.

    If we are talking 10-20 lightyears between those systems then the travel time would be decades.

    And the film does not support that long a timeframe. Would Vader wait around for that long? Would not the Emperor contact him again and go "Hey, what is the hold up? Get going!"
    Plus does Han have one year's worth of food in the MF?

    Many figure that the MF had some sort of backup hyperdrive that would enable short range travel that would not take this long.
    The hair on the actors do not get visibly longer so that indicates a not that long a timeframe. Sure they could cut their hair but would Luke bother with that? Does Han have a hair-salon on the MF?

    In closing, best guess, a few weeks in total and that would be high end. Low end, about a week.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Given that Bespin is some 900 light years closer to the Galactic Core than Hoth is (in both Legends and Newcanon reference books), that would mandate a backup hyperdrive.
     
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  19. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    You're talking about stuff that was introduced to this franchise after the fact. This isn't a real location; it's a fantasy setting with weird asteroid worms and other nonsense. The force (a magical element) exist in this universe, therefore galaxies can be much closer to each other than they could ever be in normal space.

    And that's not a dig at the writers. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for someone to write something as good as TESB, only for someone to come in later, establish distances, and retroactively introduce issues to your damn-near perfect story.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
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  20. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 6, 2020
    didnt know luke training stopped after his first "visit" to vader.

    i mean, we all know that in Return, he was literally EXACTLY the same as he was after his arm got chopped off... :rolleyes:


    and even if its true, im trying to imaging his training the way you describe:
    luke arrives. yoda says "rock x-wing same", now luke is a jedi...
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  21. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004
    I’m not sure what you mean about Vader’s first visit???

    Edit: Oh I get what you mean about Vader.

    Yeah he was probably still training after Bespin.

    It was One year later from TESB to ROTJ

    We were just talking about the length of his stay with Yoda in Dagobah on TESB

    I was saying, since both Luke and the Millennium Falcon left around same time BUT Luke got to Dagobah first while Han was still getting chased by the Empire for some unknown time plus another unknown time inside that space asteroid monster plus another unknown time Han traveling to Bespin.

    After arriving in Bespin however…it’s safe to say it was only hours later when Vader captured them. Now add another unknown time when they were torturing them until Luke finally sensed them.

    I really don’t know how long Luke was training in Dagobah but know it was stopped the moment Luke sensed his friends being tortured. So I was just guesstimating on the timeline of Han.

    So yeah I would lean to the others by maybe his training was only days or a week.

    Did any book legends or canon ever touched on how long he actually trained with Yoda??
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  22. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 6, 2020
    well, you guys are forgetting two things.

    its irrelevant what vader wanted. the emperor wanted luke alive. and in a universe where travel is happening in space, people are learning to be patient.
    we are living in a fast paced world, but they dont. they live in a world where intergalactic travel exists, and waiting time comes with it.

    *also vader needed luke to kill the emperor since he would never be able to do it himself. so yes, he would wait a thousand years for luke to come.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  23. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    So what do you estimate the timeline of Luke’s stay on Dagobah???

    Does anyone know the exact timeline from point A to point B whenever they go to hyperspace??? Seems like hours to me or is that just on “movie” time???
     
  24. cantthinkofone

    cantthinkofone Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 6, 2020
    all of it is movie time.

    realistically, it takes a very long time to learn how to use a sword. obi-wan taught luke lightsaber deflection, not combat. yoda taught him how lightsaber combat works. so luke had to learn how to use the force, how to use a lightsaber correctly in combat and how to fight a sith. it takes time to learn all of these stuff, especially the how to fight a sith part.

    the travel in space was lengthy for sure, cant say how long because i dont know the distance or the speed luke flew, but i can say vader knew it would take time so waiting wasnt a problem for him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  25. Dr Silva

    Dr Silva Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 23, 2021
    Palpatine mentioned Yoda in the ROTJ novel, so you just knew you would see them go at it in ROTS, as to why yoda didnt beat the Emperor basically yoda was overmatched against Palpatine in politics and in lightsaber skills ,as great as master yoda was Palpatine was that much stronger but Yoda got the final victory when Anakan Skywalker returned and destroyed Palpatine and brought balance to the force as was foretold.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021