ST Your predictions about the reception of the ST

I agree with you and there is a second problem with this data.
The reviews for the PT include many from "amateur" critics, people with their own websites and so on.
The old OT reviews are almost exclusively from "professional" critics in newspapers and the like.
Rotten Tomatoes actually has a function which is called "Top Critics" reviews. This filters out all those website reviews and leaves those from "professional" critics.
If you do this with the PT the figures change quite a bit.
-Phantom Menace: 40%
-Attack of the Clones: 37%
-Revenge of the Sith: 68%

VS.

31% - Return of the Jedi
52% - The Empire Strikes Back
79% - Star Wars
This is a better comparison as the OT reviews are also from "Top Critics".

To sum up, I would be careful with drawing too many conclusions from this data as;
1) We don't how many of the total number of OT reviews are included here and if this a representative selection.
and 2) The PT figures include reviews from the type of reviewers that did not exist when the OT was first released.

But some conclusions can be drawn.
1) Not every critic liked ANH.
2) The reviews of ESB were less good and RotJ were even less good.
3) Quite a number of critics liked the PT.

I was around at the time and read all the reviews I could find and I know these are not included here since I live in Sweden.
But from my own experience, ANH got many good reviews but some bad, say on average 4 stars out of five. ESB was a bit more mixed, some liked it more, others less and RotJ was liked the least, say 2,5-3 stars out of five.

As to the question, too early to say.
If the OT cast returns that could have an impact. What the story is about and how well it is told is also very important.
Lucas is not as involved so there are some critics that might be more forgiving for that reason. (A silly reason if you ask me).
Then again others might reject the ST out of hand since Lucas isn't directing it, saying "It is not Star Wars unless Lucas is involved.

What I think might be different is that the ST might not have quite as high anticipation as TPM did. It will be anticipated and quite a lot but the hype around TPM before release was unreal and out of this world. And I think it created somewhat unrealistic expectations on the film.
To me, the film still has problems but matching that level of hype would have been very hard.

Another factor is that with the PT the story was known, not the specifics but the overall plot people knew.
With the ST the story is unknown, we don't what will happen or where it will end up.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yeah, but I would even be more careful with the "Top Critics" model, as many of the top critics are really nothing more than glorified movie bloggers. That's why I always caution people in making assumptions using Rotten Tomatoes data. The reality is moviegoers really liked TPM and gave it a Cinemascore rating of A in 1999, that's what really counts.

Yancy

 

Whoa excuse me... I was wrong, the Phantom Menace did not receive a Cinemascore rating of A, it received an A+, and was one of only 52 films from 1982-2011 to receive such a score:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/why-cinemascore-matters-box-office-225563


Yancy

 

Curious, I found this on Box-Office Mojo.

If Clones got an A- grade and scored higher than TPM then how can TPM have gotten A+?

Also the webpage your link leads to.
It doesn't list The Phantom Menace, what it says is;

Which is odd, all the other films in a series such as Star Trek or Harry Potter are given their full titles.
Like "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (1986, Paramount)" Why is this called simply Star Wars?
Also TPM was Released 1999, not RE-released, so why does it say rerelease?
Perhaps they mean the SE re-release from 1997 but then the year is wrong.

Odd.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Exit polls aren't the same as Cinemascore, and Myerson's statements are nothing more than spin, remember by this time the media/fanboy spin was "everybody hated TPM." Exit polls are marketing tools handled internally by the studios testing preview audiences. Cinemascore is an outside company which handles opening day audiences and provides data to the studios. Clones may very well have received a higher rating from a test audience monitored by Fox, doesn't mean anything. Oh, and yes that was The Phantom Menace, Cinemascore would not have tested a previously released movie. I've only see them test 3-D rereleases.

Yancy

 

["Gallandro, post: 50936482, member: 223421"]

Exit polls aren't the same as Cinemascore, and Myerson's statements are nothing more than spin, remember by this time the media/fanboy spin was "everybody hated TPM." Exit polls are marketing tools handled internally by the studios testing preview audiences. Cinemascore is an outside company which handles opening day audiences and provides data to the studios. Clones may very well have received a higher rating from a test audience monitored by Fox, doesn't mean anything. Oh, and yes that was The Phantom Menace, Cinemascore would not have tested a previously released movie. I've only see them test 3-D rereleases.

Yancy[/quote]

But the quote also mentions Cinemascore and said that Clones got A- which was higher in all categories than TPM, except from males under 21.

About TPM, why did it say "rerelease" if they don't do rereleases? Also the article talks about Cinemascore from 1982 and onwards. ANH was released 1977 so it might never have gotten a Cinemascore.
And again, why is Phantom Menace called simply Star Wars when that wasn't the complete title?

Also, I have tried to look around for the Cinemascore for TPM and haven't found much but what I have found says that it got an A, no mention of an A+.

But I did find this from http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID10000890.asp

Stranger and stranger.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I don't think it's odd in the least. More than likely the author of the Hollywood Reporter article really didn't care and just assumed the 1999 release of Star Wars MUST be the original Star Wars, after all it was released in the late 90s, right, and given the relentless bashing TPM had received in the media for 12 years, it's not hard to understand how someone might have a hard time reconciling the fact TPM got an A+, let alone an A.

Again, it's really irrelevant as it's very clear audiences enjoyed TPM regardless of what a certain segment of critics thought, or rabid fanboys with their histrionic claims of Lucas raping their childhoods.


Yancy

 

But if we start thinking that the reporter made a mistake then it is also possible that it was the re-release of Star Wars in 1997. The name is correct as is rerelease, only the year is wrong. The reporter could just be thinking of TPM and how big it was in 1999.
Since other sources say that only Toy Story 2 and Music of the Heart got an A+ score in 1999 I think this fits better.

But you are right, A or A+, either shows that the film was liked and the good legs TPM had is an even better indicator of this.
It has the highest gross of all PT films and yet the lowest opening.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Please stop repeating this line, because it is a myth that every SW fan who didn't like the PT said this. Can you find someone who said that in this site throughout the years, other then some trolls who say anything on message boards? This quote was said in 1997 on www.aintitcoolnews.com after they saw the SE changes to the OT movies, and has become myth that every 'fanboy' said it.

And I would like to ask the mods why is Gallandro allowed to make these bogus claims, as I thought you are only allowed to talk about the films not the fans here?

 

I'm sure he meant it as a generalisation as to how a small minority of 'fans' can be so uncompromisingly negative and dramatic. "GL raped my childhood" is simply shorthand for describing this type of 'fan'... and I think you know that. As to the relevance of this conversation... I personally think it's very relevant given that we're talking about the possible reception of Ep VIII. And if history teaches us anything, it's that people tend to behave in similar ways regardless of what generation.

 

Really, no one said that, it's bogus??? Hmmm oh look what I found on a Google search.. second hit:

http://www.redbubble.com/people/lau...-raped-my-childhood-star-wars-style?p=t-shirt

a really bad song:



And seriously, where on earth did I say every SW fan who didn't like the prequels said this? Never did, but I do stand by my use of the word histrionics... plenty of the negative comments hurled at the PT are plenty over the top.


Yancy

 

That would be exactly what I meant Darth PJ.

 

I said find someone who said 'Lucas raped my childhood' on this SW board or any SW board who wasn't a troll, not some idiot on youtube. Trust me, I can find something on youtube about anything.

Why don't we stick to TFN fans and fans we know, instead of finding obscure idiots who post stuff on youtube who are trying to get their 15 minutes of fame. I have heard 'Lucas raped my childhood' for 15 years thrown around at anyone who doesn't love the PT, and I have yet to hear someone say it in person, on TFN, or other SW sites. Just a few big mouths who will say anything.

 

I think you're missing the point... I personally think that term "Lucas raped my childhood" is used far less by those deriding the negative minority than the term 'Prequel/Lucas apologist'... which I think someone has already accused me of being (after circa 1 week of being a member) just for stating that I prefer Hayden Christiansen's inclusion as a force ghost in ROTJ. Go figure...

 

I agree with you that some people use Lucas/Apologist, so that is fair point to call people out on this board or somewhere else.

My point is no one uses 'Lucas raped my childhood' on these boards, or other SW boards I have posted on, so its usually a small minority of idiots that said and now its become legendary because its so blasphemous to both sides.

Trust me, I'm sure you'll hear alot more 'Lens Flares' jokes after Episode VII, then you ever heard from 'Lucas raped my childhood.'

 

Bingo!

BTW, stop trolling these boards you damn Lucas Apologist, don't you know everybody hates the PT?


Yancy

 

everyone did not like it, it was a massive cult movie, successful but was in many circles derided. I remember reading several reviews that panned the original films in the UK, I remember reading a biography of the band The Clash (fave band meets fave film) and its mentioned how much they hated the films. Thats why the relative negative reaction to the PT did not phase me as it all happened before. In 1999 TPM could not not meet the 16 year gap expectation.... I remember the main criticism being the slow pace and the emphasis on the politics.

 

Spot on... Although I think ANH is infinitely better than TPM, TPM is so much more than the usual Hollywood tripe that gets churned out every year... be it The Avengers, Man of Steel, Iron Man, Sherlock Holmes etc. etc. TPM, for all its flaws (and there are many (IMHO), is quite a sophisticated, multi layered film that deals with (although subtly) complex subject matter.

 

What I remember the most is how people talked about it not feeling like Star Wars. The Hannah Barbera aliens (specially in the pod race), fart jokes, those power balls the gungans have in the final battle, the fact that is centered around a kid that can't elevate such boring dialogue, Yoda looks weird, etc.

Still, I think TPM is probably the best out of the Prequel trilogy. The other two feel more like a mess to me, specially in the special effects department. Of course TPM probably has worse cgi at parts but the others feel really hermetic and fully digital, even at parts where you go "was that necessary? did it have to be cgi?"
TPM feels more like a normal production with real locations, real sets, kick ass soundtrack, etc. It feels more like a movie, production wise. Also the action sequences are not as far fetched and impossible as they seem on AOTC and ROTS. On paper maybe, Anakin destroying the Federation ship out of luck felt stupid but it didn't really defy the laws of physics on screen as like the whole Obi Wan on the dinosaur vs Grevious felt.

 

I personally feel AOTC and ROTS, whilst not on a par with ANH and TESB, are infinitely superior to ROTJ... That's good enough for me given the high regard I have for the originals. Yes - I'd agree from a visual perspective TPM is closer to the originals, but I think AOTC and ROTS have much more scope and imagination in terms of environments. I didn't particularly like the Obi-Wan/Grevious chase, but I still think it's head and shoulders above its contemporaries in terms of imagination, execution, music, sound effects etc. etc... I don't think 'laws of physics' come into it given we're talking about a science fantasy saga involving laserswords, Death Stars, Sith lightning and the 'force'.

 

I didn't mean in a technological or mystical sense, I meant how this chase scenes plays out as people in an environment. It's hard to follow and impossible to take seriously. The characters are doing stuff that is so unreal and boring to look at, there's nothing at stake. I know it's a jedi versus a cyborg so I don't expect a Lethal Weapon kind of action scene, but I do expect at least something I can follow where the visual elements don't throw me off because of their lack of quality (thanks cgi) and where the action is anything but accurate and coherent to the basic laws of physics. But that's just my opinion, When watching those scenes in the theater I felt like the movie had lost me for a bit and couldn't wait for another scene to save me from boredom.

 

Well I agree that there is...
1) A hyper reality to that scene which means it almost plays like a comic book rather than live action... but I do think that is in keeping with the OT - just different technology producing the results.
2) There is a general lack of 'peril'. However, I think this is more than made up for in other action scenes throughout the movie.

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with the quality of that scene in terms of effects work. ROTS, like all the Star Wars films, pushes the envelop. Yes it's dated since release (as do all effects), but it's still pretty much photorealistic IMO.

I also agree that the General Grievous subplot is pretty much padding out the story... when all we are really interested in is the fall of Anakin/the Jedi purge.

 

I think AOTC effects are atrocious. Jurassic Park has better effects and that was a decade earlier.

 

Back on topic, I don't know if it's possible to predict reception for a movie we don't know the quality of. I do think there will no matter what be people who refuse to like it even if it's great, and there will be people who will find ways to love it even if it's mediocre. It's in a unique place In that it's coming after movies so universally beloved and movies so popularly derided. Reviews will say 'it's not as good as ESB, but...' if they're seen as good, or they'll say 'at least it's better than TPM, but...'. If they're seen as bad.

 

I think if you believe that the effects in AOTC are 'atrocious' then I'd hazzard a guess that you don't really understnad what goes into those effects shots and how AOTC advanced the way that technology was being used. When AOTC was realeased it set the benchmark for effects (as each and every Star Wars film does). Remember Jurassic Park has a fraction of the effects shots... and some of the CGI in JP looks its age now.

In terms of AOTC, I remember at the time having to point out to a lot of detractors that ALL the clone troopers were CGI... and to a man none of those detractors realised that every single clone was a special effect... Let alone the panoramic vistas of Coruscant (that STILL look brilliant today), or Kamino or Geonosis or the asteroid chase etc. etc.