"You're no match for him - he's a Sith Lord!"

Obi-Wan beat both Darth Maul and Darth Vader.

- O_F

 

Obi-Wan beat both Darth Maul and Darth Vader.

He didnt destroy Vader. Maul is an exception. However I think Obi Wan used aggression and anger to achieve the victory. The difference with Obi Wan is that he isnt after power so the dark side has no effect on him.

However, the main point I was making is that you cant defeat THE SITH through confrontation.

The perfect Jedi cannot defeat the perfect Sith in battle IMO.

Case in point:

Yoda vs Sidious

 

MS
Yet, the point is he is holding back - prolonging the fight.

well the fight wasnt prolonged for very long, hard to prolong it for less, lol. i dont think dooku was able to prolong the fight at all, maybe in AotC but not RotS. if you cant prolong the fight at all then you cant win it either, in most cases. if anything anakin was holding back on dooku. anakin didnt look challenged at all, he was almost having fun, thats why he felt so guilty after.

 

Well he was prolonging it in the sense that he wasnt going in for the kill. He used the time to draw out Anakins anger.

Im open to other words!

 

The ultimate ideology of the Jedi vs. the Sith will only lead to a Jedi victory because of their compasion and selflessness, that is true. But a Jedi can beat a Sith in a direct battle, there's nothing that says they can't. Mace beat Sidious, Obi-Wan beat Vader (even if he didn't destroy him) and Obi-Wan beat Maul. Obi-Wan got knocked down the pit because he was fighting in anger, but when he calmed himself down; he was able to overcome Maul. There wasn't any anger anymore, he controlled that when he closes his eyes and used the force.

Sidious beat Yoda simply because he was a little bit stronger - he could hold on to the pod, Yoda couldn't.

- O_F

 

Master_Shaitan
The perfect Jedi cannot defeat the perfect Sith in battle IMO. Case in point: Yoda vs Sidious.

i like calling yoda the perfect jedi, but i hav to disagree overall. yoda would hav owned sidious (as much as masters fighting other masters can), if the fight was straight up lightsabers. only with the senate, armies, and popular opinion with sidious could he fight yoda to a draw, it was up to fate more than anything. after RotS, we realize that sidious cant kill yoda because of yoda's skills, even though he would dearly like to. yoda has the abilities to take out sidious straight up, but sidious protects himself from that, imho.


EDIT: MS
Well he was prolonging it in the sense that he wasnt going in for the kill. He used the time to draw out Anakins anger. Im open to other words!

ya im not disagreeing, youre right, but i just dont think dooku could defeat anakin in RotS, holding back or not.

 

Doesn't the novel talk about the fact that in the duel between Dooku/Anakin that after Dooku force pushes Obi Wan it takes a lot out of him physically (tiring him) and mentally (through the force). Dooku was supposed to be around 84 years old wasn't he? I think the book makes it seem more like Dooku was holding back so as not to kill Anakin but found himself faced with someone (Anakin) who actually started to use the dark side against him and it wore him down more than he expected it to. At least, that's how I read it.

Also, Dooku was never worried about carrying out Palpatine/Sidious' orders to 'spare' Anakin so that he could be lured over to their side... Dooku was ready to "retire", for lack of a better description, and simply thought he would be taken as a prisoner. This way Anakin would be the big hero and Dooku would be set up in some nice low-security, vacation-type holding facility per Palpatine's promise.

Of course, all of this is based on information taken from the novel, which goes much more into detail about the duel and engineering behind it.

 

Obi-Wan beat both Darth Maul and Darth Vader.

Obi-Wan luckily beat Maul, and he forfeit his match with Vader, no one knows what the outcome would of been for that.

 

what are you talking about..Obi-wan sliced them both up...its called a victory when your oponent can no longer fight[Anakin]..or is in fact dead[Maul].

 

Both situations were lucky.

Anakin made a mistake, he jumped, and Obi-Wan cut him up. A 2-year-old could of done that [no not literally, but you get my point]

Maul was confident, he was swinging his saber around, and he didn't notice the saber behind him. Obi-Wan jumped and sliced. Again, a 2-year-old could of done that. [and again, I am exaggerating]

Both Maul, Anakin had Obi-Wan back on his heels. A mistake from both cost them.

 

Obi-Wan in effect was beaten. Hanging at the verge of this shaft, having lost his lightsaber. He caught Maul by surprise, since Maul didn't expect him to try anything else anymore. He was lucky because Maul hadn't made sure that he fell down the shaft or was killed otherwise but instead preferred to indulge in gloating. This had nothing to do with inferiour fighting skills on the part of Maul, but with Maul prematurely being convinced he'd beaten the Kenobi. Mere instance of overconfidence.

 

That's not the point, Obi-Wan still beat them. It's like saying Lennox Lewis didn't lose the battle because he "made a mistake". The fact that he made a mistake cost him the battle (and the title), he lost a duel. In your case, no battle is actually won. The rebels didn't really beat the Empire, the Empire just made "mistakes".

Fighting skills, power, speed, etc etc are not the end to all means in a battle. Obi-Wan examplifies this; he isn't the greatest swords man, but he destroys Maul; destroys Grievous and beats Vader. Those aren't all coincidences.

- O_F

 

what are you talking about..Obi-wan sliced them both up...its called a victory when your oponent can no longer fight[Anakin]..or is in fact dead[Maul].

maul owned him an he caught maul by surprise,regarding vaderhe was barely a boy on his early twenties if he had fight and experienced and mature vader thing would have go differently,look what happened in ANH and dont even start that he sacrified himself to allow luke to escape because i know that but even if he hadnt sacrified himself he had no chances whatsoever of beating vader in the death star.

 

Yoda failed to beat Palpatine, and that is all the symbolism you need. The Jedi Master fought the Sith Master, and the Jedi master failed.

 

but, when your opnent is dead or sliced in half thats called a win. I mean Maul is dead...and Darth Vader has to now use handicap parking.

 

A point sytem is the only way to figure this out. I think this is quite fair, all things considered.

5 = for killing enemy
4 = for rendering unable to fight
3 = Making your opponent run away
2 = Having a reason not to kill your opponent, keeping you from using ful strength
1 = Bonus point: fighting two or more enemies at once

OR

If one 'side' uses the other side, a la Luke using the dark side to beat Vader in ROTJ. You can't really call that a win for the light side.

Qui-Gon/Maul in the desert: Qui-Gon runs away.
DARK SIDE: 3

qui-gon/Maul on Naboo: Maul kills Qui-Gon
DARK SIDE: 3

Obi/Maul: Obi kills Maul
LIGHT SIDE: 5

Dooku vs. Anakin: Dooku cuts off his arm and bitchslaps him across the room
DARK SIDE: 4

Dooku vs. Obi: Dooku gives Obi a nasty paper cut and renders him immobile
DARK SIDE 4

Yoda vs Dooku: A clear draw, even after fighting two other Jedi -- but Dooku runs!
LIGHT SIDE: 3

Dooku vs Obi-Wan: Rendered unconscious
DARK SIDE: 4

Dooku vs. Anakin: Anakin wins -- but by using the dark side!
DARK SIDE: 1 point

Obi vs. Anakin: Obi slices Anakin the hell up, but he survives
LIGHT SIDE: 4 points

Yoda vs. Palpatine: Yoda scrams and proclaims failure
DARK SIDE: 3 points

Vader vs. Obi: Obi gives up, but does not win. Vader clearly would have won, however. For this one, we'll call a draw
ZERO POINTS

Luke vs Vader: Luke rendered unable to fight, AND runs away, but we won't give Vader both sets of points.
DARK SIDE: 4

Luke vs. Vader: Luke wins, but by using the dark side.
DARK SIDE 1 point


Maybe I counted wrong, but I get:

DARK SIDE: 27
LIGHT SIDE: 12

Dark side takes it!

 

brilliant! ^^^^

 

i agree lol..but he forget Darth vader turning from the Darkside and tossing Sidious down a shaft. I would say the Lightside gets about 100 points for that one

 

Luke vs Vader: Luke rendered unable to fight, AND runs away, but we won't give Vader both sets of points.
DARK SIDE: 4

Why not?

And Ruthio, according to his system, Vader used the Lightside to defeat Sidious, so that's just 1 point

 

GL already confirmed that the Dark Side is more powerful and his films shows it.

It takes 2 Jedi to take on 1 Sith.

Well 4 Jedi to take on Palpatine.


Maul took on 2 Jedi and killed one of them and then almost beat the other.

Tyranus laid waste on both Obi-Wan and Anakin and then still have the power to duel with the most powerful Jedi.

Vader is The Chosen one and he also chooses the Sith Way.

As for their master Sidious:

Yoda can't defeat him.

Luke the New Hope did not stand a chance against him.

Mace and his posse were killed like nothing trying to defeat him.(3 of them in seconds and Mace instantly after holding back to finally lure Anakin and to frame the whole Jedi Order.)

The only way Sidious got defeated was when someone had to sacrifice himself ala Anakin.


Sith uses passion and agression while the Jedi practices peace and defense so it's natural that the Dark Side is more powerful.

 

i agree lol..but he forget Darth vader turning from the Darkside and tossing Sidious down a shaft. I would say the Lightside gets about 100 points for that one

Significance of outcome is not weighted. Vader should get points for using the light side, but that's 1. To be generous, give him five. Dark side still kicks ass of light side.

 

I don't want to believe that Dooku wasn't given 100% against Anakin. It makes Anakin less powerful, IMO. Maybe Dooku would have spared Anakin's life on defeat. But that's about it.

Page 41 from The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith.
Lucas: "Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

By this logic, Palpatine clearly tells Dooku to defeat him if he can. So Dooku went full speed guys.

And I will argue that Anakin did not use the dark side to defeat Dooku. Ditto Obi-Wan vs Maul.'

I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don't use them.

He didn't use the dark side against Dooku till he chopped his head off.

 

Actually the novel said that Anakin had to use the Dark Side so he could beat Dooku.

 

When Dooku says that is exactly when he begins to use it. He clenches his teeth and rages out, not unlike Luke in ROTJ.

Using aggression does not make you evil, but it IS the dark side. There is no such thing as light side aggression. Light side Jedi merely use their aggression in very small doses -- balance -- and its fine.

Anakin won that because he raged out, like Luke did.

 

Technically he did because using hate and anger is the way of the Sith. He did not use the Jedi way, for one thing.

And NoCloneTheories, this was meant for you...