Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

OK, here's the principal bits of speculation I've come up with.

Spoiler

My guess is that Book 6 will likely end with Arya getting killed and becoming a White Walker--not just a mere Wight. It's possible she'll die after being sent on a mission to assassinate Jon Snow.

Jon Snow survives being backstabbed by warging into another body. In this new guise he meets and falls in love with Dany when she finally reaches Westeros.

Jaime kills Cersei to stop her from burning King's Landing. But Cersei has killed their children in a fit of madness, Medea-style, so Jaime becomes King.

Stannis realizes that he will likely never sit on the Iron Throne. So he decides to ensure a Baratheon at least will succeed Jaime--by raping and impregnating the woman he thinks is Jaime's "consort." Not Cersei, but rather Brienne.

I think Book 7 will open with a parley between Jaime and Dany. Jaime offers Dany the crown of all Westeros, on one condition: let him borrow a dragon for a couple days. (Shades of Richard III: "My kingdom for a dragon!") He uses one of her dragons to ride to Storm's End (now surrounded by a ring of magic fire) and rescue Brienne.

Jaime kills Stannis and Melisandre, who dared to offer him severed bits of Brienne in a meal, like in Titus Andronicus. (I've heard jokes about "Frey Pie" stemming from one of the later books, so I guess this is "Brienne Bread"?). She lives, though.

In his new body, Jon Snow meets up with Walker-Arya. She recognizes him even in new flesh, and despite being undead, she can't bring herself to kill him, and ends up on the side of the heroes.

The final band of heroes leading the charge against the White Walkers will represent "the old gods and the new" embodied. Jon Snow stands in for the Father, Dany for the Mother (of Dragons), the one-handed Jaime for the Warrior, the ravished Brienne for the Maiden, Gendry for the Smith, Sansa for the Crone, and Walker-Arya for the Stranger. Bran Stark represents the Children of the Forest, and Theon (who was subsumed beneath Reek and lived again) stands for the Drowned God. There may also be a priest of the Lord of Light--Thoros of Myr?

Dany kills Jon Snow in a ritual sacrifice, in order to invoke the magic to create a flaming sword with which to fight the Walkers.

They ride into battle on Dany's dragons, three to a mount. So there are Nine Riders, and Arya Stark is the White Rider--a couple of puns on Tolkien there.

Jon Snow and Dany both die, and are burned on a pyre at the end. Dany's dragons jump into the flames and are consumed. A lot of the inspiration for their storyline, I think, comes from the Norse myth of Sigurd/Siegfried and Brunhild.

Jaime Lannister becomes King of Westeros, with Brienne as his Queen. Brienne bears a son, who is notable for his dark hair despite both his parents being blond.

Sansa settles down to rule in Winterfell. Sadly for Sandor/Sansa shippers, I suspect Sandor Clegane will die saving her life, and Sansa will end up married to Gendry instead. The still-Walkerized Arya, meanwhile, becomes the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and looks quite spiffy in her white armor.

I realize that in the absence of any proof, a lot of this looks like arrant speculation on my part. I certainly don't blame you for being skeptical!

I will say that I am quite looking forward to checking my predictions against what comes to pass in The Winds of Winter, when (hopefully not if) it comes out. Not least because it would confirm a lot of my ideas about the genesis of Willow.

As is no doubt obvious from the above text, I would never say that Willow was the only source GRRM drew on. Rather, he would've looked at the inspiration Lucas himself took from earlier sources, and drawn on them as well--just as Lucas did when looking at earlier generations of space operas (e.g., John Carter of Mars to Flash Gordon to Dune) when he made Star Wars.

Stuff from the early Willow is clearly in place, however:

Spoiler

For instance, the diminutive Bran Stark probably ends up turning into a tree, as was apparently the original plan for the sorcerer Willow Ufgood at the end of his life (thus his name). This goes back to the fate of Merlin in Arthurian lore.

Likewise, I'm fairly certain that Willow's Madmartigan was originally going to lose his sword hand and gain a golden prosthesis, much like Jaime. A very Lucas idea if there ever was one--in fact, in the third draft of ESB, Luke Skywalker gets a golden prosthetic arm much like the one Anakin has in the prequels.

 

Nothing you posted is going to happen.

 

And of course there's also the fact that

Spoiler

like the cuckold King Robert Baratheon, Madmartigan and Sorsha end up raising a child who is not their own as the heir to their kingdom. Another idea dear to Lucas, whose own children are adopted.

Like I said, I can understand not believing in these predictions.

 

I won't bother with most of it, but Jaime can't become king even assuming he goes against the Kingsguard vows. He's not in the line of succession nor does he have a claim because he's Lannister (Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen being ostensibly Baratheon w/a Targ great grandmother). As he's related to neither Aegon the Conqueror nor Robert, no one would accept his rule.

 

What if the actor playing him is swapped out for Val Kilmer? What do you say then, Darth That Guy?

 

Theoretically anyone with a large enough army can claim the throne by right of conquest. If somehow Jaimie gains an army large enough to conquer Westeros then he 'could' become King.

The odds of that happening are very slim though as all the armies are either spent, in service to someone else, or completely destroyed.

I suppose Jaimie could be king in all but name if he removes all Tommen's advisers and becomes the de facto ruler, making Tommen his puppet.

 

Theoretically he could conquer the continent, yes, but he wouldn't be Aegon's heir. Although Robert's charisma and the armies at his back were more important, he still had the "blood of the dragon" in his veins and that gave him a claim to Iron Throne. It usually worked the same way in the real Middle Ages. Even if a new family came to the throne, they would claim (truthfully or falsely or so-far-removed-no-one-knows) to be descended from previous legitimate-- often the first known-- rulers.

 

Just going to steer off topic for a second to add another voice to the World of Ice and Fire love. Worth every penny. Though now I'm a little sad that some of the new mysteries it's brought up (who built the Seastone chair and Hightower foundation, Aegon's letter, if there is anything west, etc) may never be answered in the series. Though I'm sure some will, too, so there's some excitement with that!

 

Place: UK. Show: Channel 4 News. There's cold weather coming, and yet... you know nothing, Jon Snow.

 

I haven't been able to make it past the first prediction about someone becoming a White Walker yet. Does it get crazier that that? I don't see how that's possible.

 

Stannis raping someone I think is crazier.

 

What? No, Stannis could totally do that.

 

If he executed himself after.

 

Isn't that Davos? I thought Stannis thought him keeping the fingers was weird.

 

facepalm

 

i wouldn't find stannis raping someone to be that surprising. he's kind of a power-hungry **** who would do anything and perform any ritual that he didn't even believe in if he thought it would lead to his own personal gain. am i missing something?

 

Yeah, especially if he felt it was an act he was compelled to do as part of his duty to the realm.

 

Well, I never understood him to be about 'personal gain' (more about the rule of law) and his most prominent trait, besides his stubbornness, is his sense of justice, as misguided as it can be. I can't see him hunting down and raping Brienne simply because he thinks she's Jaime's consort. Especially since the child would never be a 'Baratheon'- just another bastard. If that was the case he would rather find and legitimise Edric Storm etc I'm sure.

I don't think there's much indication Stannis doesn't believe in what Melisandre is offering him, after all it works. And what do you mean by any ritual? To my mind it's a big leap (and I would think Stannis's) to go from burning slugs, having sex with Mel and executing criminals by burning to raping innocent women.

 

well yeah, the brienne scenario would never happen and is completely absurd. but you just said the idea of stannis raping someone is crazy, and i don't think it is at all given the right circumstances.

 

And I can't perceive what those circumstances might be. He tried to have brothels banned in KL. He banned rape from his men at the Wall. He only has sex with his wife once a year or so for duty's sake. I can't think of what would require him to rape someone unless he thought it was a duty.

 

Maybe if he lit the person on fire first?