PT A Thread For Prequel Fans To Discuss New Star Wars Content (spoiler tags required)

You see the odd comment about the X-wings looking too CGI, Daisy's accent being distracting and John sweating too much, but those comments aren't often taken seriously.

I won't say I'm an OT-only fan, but I'm definitely more of an OT/TCW fan than anything else, and I think JJ has nailed it as far as capturing not necessarily the look of the OT but instead the experience of seeing it for the first time. That shot of the Falcon at the end of the first teaser may look modern but it feels like how I experienced the OT space scenes in the '80s.

 

...spare visual style...


..................What?...................

So, in other words, Abrams has never actually seen the Star Wars prequels. Because in terms of composition theory, they are exceedingly and consistently sparse-yet-bold with a classical framing that emphasizes negative space and oft singular and monolithic character profiles. Even the degree of background traffic/density has little to do with how foreground subjects can be sparsely composed both in relation to each other and the frame borders, all the same rendering spatial dynamics.

It's good that Abrams is (talking about) aspiring to a cinematic language beyond his own but, honestly, the comments above do come off a tad slight.

 

Composition is clearly only one aspect of those directors' "visual style", however.

 

Ingram_I Thank you. Someone came in here to report me to the JJ fans for pointing exactly this out, and accused me of deliberate misinterpretation.
I began to doubt my own thinking, but yes this runs through all six films.

People get confused by the amount of detail added in some frames and can't see the wood for the trees. If you are not careful you can confuse spare with sparse - and end up with empty.

 

Yeah!

Talk about a false equivalence!

Critical remarks contained in a handful of threads do not constitute a hateful crusade...

...unlike the crusade prequel bashers have gleefully been on, without pausing for breath, these past sixteen years.

But let me know when a PT fan sets up the first "Snoke Must Die!" web page.

Certainly.

While it might be well-intentioned in some respects, I'm really not going to take lessons in net etiquette, or which are the "right" opinions to have about a mega-bucks movie, from contentious TFA supporters.

Prequel bashing turned into a cottage industry; enough for it to grind on The Maker himself (a man who was formerly nothing but sanguine about the heavy lashings of criticism thrown his way). So I think prequel fans who dislike at least some of what they've seen and heard about this new movie have a lot of catching up to do.

Of course, that's not an argument that they should catch up; it's merely my noting the gaping disparity. As long as they're not being disrespectful or crossing certain lines of good grace, why should fans with critical sentiments toward the new film be silent, let alone shamed into silence?


And as for that earlier objection (by Darth Downunder) to the notion that some boundary of decency is being transgressed by people constantly talking about J.J. Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy, the contributions of Michael Arndt vs. Lawrence Kasdan, or whatever...

It's a new Star Wars movie. Another chapter (ostensibly) in a nine-part family fable: the epic mythological opus of our age. Not a book, not a TV show, not a comic, not a new breakfast cereal. A brand new film: the medium in which Star Wars was incepted. People are going to go over every nook and cranny of it. Moreover, Disney/Kennedy/Abrams have been pretty damn stingy with the critical particulars of the film (y'know, little things, like story and characters), giving people very little to go on before the last few weeks. Mystery Box mania.

Has the simple fact of the prequels being done and dusted ten years ago now, stopped numerous fans and online sources commenting on them, including (often ignorantly) the machinations behind the curtain? No. The passage of time has served as no restraint at all. Au contraire, the explosion of YouTube and social media has only intensified the chatter about them -- to the point, as I said before, of prequel bashing becoming a mini-industry all of its own.

Just how many times have people repeated (and simplified) remarks like Rick McCallum's "It's so dense", or Lucas', "It's like poetry, they rhyme", or "Jar Jar is the key to all this"? Or complained that their childhoods were "raped"; or, a la Pegg, contended that Lucas destroyed his own legacy or committed "infanticide"; or alleged that Lucas is a) lazy, b) racist, c) a thief, d) a hack, e) a liar, f) selfish or arrogant, g) a mindless technocrat, h) a sheltered billionaire who cares more about merchandise than storytelling or quality, etc.?

And it wasn't prequel fans who devised a hokey marketing scheme that had a range of TFA personnel strategically dissing the prequels, shoving bigots like Simon Pegg in their faces, or boasting about how much more "practical" and "authentic" and "delightful" their new film is. "The Force Awakens" is a bold enough hint, but they might as well have re-branded this film "Star Wars Reborn".

I'm not having it. It's beyond a joke. Until disenchanted prequel fans extend a tenth the calumny and vitriol that prequel bashers have toward the new film, the makers of the film, or its (inevitable) boatload of fans, let alone Disney -- a big impersonal corporation that can surely withstand a bit of heat -- I don't think prequel fans really need to be told how best to behave. Personally, I wouldn't have the chutzpah to even voice such a thing on a prequel trilogy board. But what do I know, eh?

 

I apologise for my 'I HATE HIM' skit, which was really only meant for fun - I was annoyed - and anger leads to hate etc etc. Anyway it's the kind of thing we always say in our household if some young kid kills you in Halo, or if things didn't go well at work.

I paused before I posted it, but to late unfortunately - fans of JJ elsewhere have taken it literally to mean we must be a bunch of halfway there Sith Lords becoming the things we once despised etc.

Ah, whatever. George made a subtle joke about Empire not being the best film and the lynch 'comments below' mob were soon pitchfork in hand.

Just can't win.

Anyway these are Forums - I'm sure in ancient Greece or Rome critical debate was tolerated !

 

Funny that Abrams mentions studying Malick's "powerful stillness" as research for TFA. A couple of years back I commented in these very forums how I was indeed reminded of Malick by the way in which Lucas infused certain scenes of the PT with a meditative focus that previously I never really associated with Star Wars.

 

I'm reminded of a powerful quotation by the imperishable H.L. Mencken:

"A sense of humor always withers in the presence of the messianic delusion, like justice and truth in front of patriotic passion."

 

It's weird that some are now going out of their way to come here and criticize the posters on this thread for being to critical of TFA. I guess it's okay to voice optimistic opinions about TFA, but not critical ones, and I guess it's a waste of time to criticize TFA, but it's a quality way to spend your time when you take the time to criticize people for being critical.

Let me pose a theory about what's motivating those who come here only to criticize those who are critical. I believe they are simply afraid that the majority response to the TFA will be negative. And why do they fear that the majority response will be negative? Because they down deep fear that this negative take on TFA will bias them against it too. Groupthink has a powerful effect on the weak-minded, and they don't want to be swept away by it, so they want to stomp out any negative opinions before they can spread. A lot these criticizers of TFA critics have a lot invested in TFA beyond just the film's success. They believe it will prove all their pet theories right -- that the PT wasn't sunk by high-expectations, that GL lost his way, that he can't direct and write, that GL sold out, that GL wasn't really the creative genius behind the OT, etc. (Of course, the fact that TFA's success won't prove any of these theories doesn't really matter; it'll give that much more irrational ammunition to Lucas-bashing.)

There's a big difference between hateful bashing and having a critical view of something. If you are a secure person, a fairly-worded negative opinion from someone else towards something you like shouldn't bother you. The reviews of critics shouldn't bother you. How well TFA does at the box office shouldn't matter to you. None of these things should matter to you. All that should matter is your own opinion ...that is, if you are a secure person. However, if you are an insecure person, then the opinions of others are something to be feared because, before long, if too many around you take a negative opinion of what you like, that negative opinion becomes your own.

My advice. Don't reveal your own inadequacies. Accept that the opinions of others differ from your own. Grow a backbone and recognize there's no reason to be threatened by them.

 

On non Star Wars forums a few people have commented that though they didn't like the PT this looks like a rehash of the OT.

 

On one of my favorite author's forums the consensus opinion is that Disney sucks for not marketing John Carter correctly. Most people there couldn't care less about any Star Wars. Maybe I should constantly lecture them about being nice to Wookiee-related films. Nah.

 

I apologise if this has been posted elsewhere. But this puts the lid on it for me.

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2015/11/the-weaponised-nostalgia-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

Now, anybody else want to chime in about the supposed mass hysterical hallucination of the apparent bias in this marketing campaign?
Or perhaps tell us off for getting a little annoyed by it ?

 

SeventySeven
I enjoyed reading the article you shared. Thanks. I've always loved the "poetic rhyming" and the use of recurring thematic motives, shot compositions and recurring dialogue in all 6 SW films. It's similar to the repetition and melodic motives that occur in musical compositions.
I'm glad that JJ and company are respecting and extending this SW tradition in TFA. GL will most likely be quite pleased with this care and attention to detail.

 

Seeing how things are being discussed here and somehow a new division in fandom regarding TFA, this was almost predictable especially after all this questionable promotion of the new movie.

This really was a misstep on the part of Disney and Lucasfilm when they were trying to address to the embittered fans who have been kept saying that "Lucas has killed his own franchise with the PT and the Special Edition of the OT". The last person who has added more fuel to the fire is Simon Pegg with his recent comments. Many fans who like the PT and the saga in its entirety have really felt the burn, and therefore also felt being discarded simply because they are not "purists" or "real fans" for whom the new movie seems to be addressed.

JJ Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy certainly know how to talk to the embittered fans, promising them that they will hide what is considered as shameful by the "nerd planet", and in exchange they are receiving many praises from fanboys, with records of ticket sales for the premiere of the new movie. Despite this questionable advertising, this strategy certainly works very well and it is being seen with a very positive eye by the geek media because Lucas never seem to care about the fans in the fans.

The reason why I consider this to be a big misstep on the part of Disney is because Lucas was right, in the first place, not to care about what the fans and the critics were thinking and saying about his recent work. And why should he if all he's just receiving are negative messages? I had a discussion yesterday evening with one of my teachers in drawing regarding this issue, since I'm taking some courses after my work. He's also working in the industry of arts and culture and he knows very well what it is when comes the time to deal with fans or people who don't like your work. He told me that there are two essential rules, as an artist, not to forget when you publish your work:

1. First rule: "don't feed the trolls". If you begin to care about, or address to people who don't like your work and then you are trying to change your vision just in order to please to them, you are killing your creativity and your vocation as an artist, since you are enchaining yourself to the needs of people who don't like your work;
2. Second rule: "haters always gonna hate". Whatever you will do, whatever you'll say when trying to please to everyone, there will always be people who will find something in order to criticize you or put you down. The 10 years campaign of hate against Lucas is the perfect example of this. And this picture below shows you what our society is and why it is rather futile to address to the angry fanboys unlike what Disney and Lucasfilm were thinking with their promotional strategy.

That's why I say to people who think that TFA will be rebirth of the "spirit of the Original Trilogy" and to others who are being optimistic regarding the new movie that it will receive some backlash from some fanboys after its release. Will it be more or less vicious than it was previously against the PT? We do not know. But one thing is sure, it will receive some. But the major problem right now is that as the release of the new movie is approaching, some people, as seen in this thread, are already criticizing the approach used by Disney and Lucasfilm in order to promote the film. And this will certainly affect their perception when watching the new movie since they may not be in a right state of mind, allowing them to fully appreciate it. And this is one of the reasons why this is really a bad move on the side of Disney and Lucasfilm when they were trying to address the embittered fans. I won't even be surprised if some of those same embittered fans, who kept bashing the PT for more than 15 years are the same people who will heavily criticize TFA (refer to the second rule above).

To sum up all this, what am I trying to mean here? What I mean here is, regardless of what a "fan-club" can think about a movie, a book or a painting, what always counts is the creator visions and what he was trying to express through his work, not what the public thinks.

I've read comments of some people arguing, especially in the thread regarding the release of the OOT, that once an artwork is released to the public, it belongs to the public and a fan-club, and from now on the creator behind it no longer has the right to touch it and his point of view no longer counts. I'm sorry but I don't agree with this. What does belong to the public is the interpretation that each person can have regarding the work of art. And only God knows how interpretations coming from many and different people can be heavily different. For example, I see a painting, it inspires me something that is perhaps different from what the creator wanted to convey. But the intent of the artist still remains important. Generally, when people are looking at a work of art, it has very often been the artist's view that the public shared. Even if the work is shared and contemplated by the world, it still remains that it belongs to the artist and only to him. Similarly, if an artwork is sold to an individual or to private interest, it belongs, in the spirit, to the one who did it. For example, if I were to buy the Mona Lisa, I will still say that it has been done and it somehow belongs to Leonardo de Vinci even if it belongs to me since I bought it, because the artist still remain relevant.

Being the possessor or having the right to see an artwork does not necessarily mean that we are the creator. Disney may be the owner of the movies after spending 4 billion dollars, and the fans may be buying these movies on different format, but these movies are still Lucas' films, and it will remain so.

Even when some fans will protest against the TFA (and there will certainly be some), at the end of the day, it will still remain JJ's work. Fanboys can yell as long as they want because the films, whether it is the ST or the PT, simply didn't match with what they imagined, but none of that is going to change things.

That's why I consider that when Disney said to Lucas, "we are making a movie for the fans", is a bad move. "Fans"? Which "fans"? The OT Fans? The PT Fans? The Saga Fans? The EU Fans? The Clone Wars Fans? ect... By doing this, you're maintaining the expectation of one part of the fanbase very high, even unrealistic, while discarding another side of the fanbase. The best thing would have been to let the creative people doing their job and let them rely on their intuition, regardless of what a fan-club can think.

The 6 previous Star Wars movies have always been addressed to a much larger and varied audience than just a fan-base. That's what the ST should also be, by standing on its own as the OT and the PT.

 

Fans like me are in a good situation then since I like all 6 films, the EU and TCW.
Good post SW Saga Fan

 

Darth Nerdling

I too have come to a similar conclusion about why people are going out of their way to attack those of us that don't see TFA as the second coming. Both you and I have endured personal attacks up in the TFA forums for our opinions. In fact this latest incident here in this thread where we have had an influx of people attacking opinion instead of having a discussion was instigated by thejeditraitor tagging this thread in the TFA forums as a way to garner support for his opinion. Now thejeditraitor pretends he's not trying to stir things up, yet we can see by his comments in the TFA section about our opinions here, that's exactly what he was doing by linking this thread.

Also point of fact G-FETT and myself were specifically pointed out, by a member of that section, to be targeted by that community (negatively) in case we tried posting up there.

My conclusion is very similar to yours, they are very very defensive up there. It's funny how the same people keep saying the same thing over and I over. They keep saying how TFA looks great, JJ is doing an awesome job. Almost like s group therapy of sorts to help prop each other up. I think for some, they see the stir of criticism swirling regarding TFA and they are trying to stop it. Maybe even some of them deep down see the same issues we do, and their only response is to lash out and play the watch the movie first hand in order to hopefully stem the tide...

As I said before, it's no coincidence that some of the same people that are now attacking us are largely anti-pt people as well that we can see use the same exact tactics to beat down opinions contrary to theirs.

 

Yep. It pretty much reads that way to me.

Yes, and given the way the thing has been marketed, it's a need the makers seem to have implanted or fomented -- the marketing carrot to bring in the big bucks.

Of course, they don't say they've been doing this directly, but all the signification is pretty obvious, right down to J.J. Abrams talking out of two sides of his mouth.

Like in that interview where he said he hates the thought of people being divided or inclined to comparing TFA "to something they might not have liked as much as something else."

The sheer hypocrisy! After his crappy Jar Jar dig, all the "practical" nonsense, and claiming that TFA is designed to deliver the "quintessential" Star Wars experience.

I refer you back to my earlier post on the matter: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...res-models-etc.50017310/page-55#post-52650103

Everyone should own their opinion -- indeed!

I read the whole thing (and there are some nice image comparisons there), but before I did, I scrolled to the bottom, to read the final paragraph.

I feel you can really get the flavour of an article that way. I predicted there would be some kind of shot at the prequels. I was right:

That’s actually not too far away from what The Force Awakens is doing right now. It’s telling us we don’t have to worry about it anymore. The Jedi, the Dark Side, they’re real. It’s true – all of it.



"We don't have to worry about it anymore". As if Star Wars fans are an homogeneous block.

And yes, if you read the full article, it's clear as purple crayon that the author interprets that line of Han's from the third trailer to be one in a slew of tacit (even overt) guarantees, deliberately put there by the makers, that TFA will be a "homecoming" event: a vindication, a purification.

Also, as excited as that guy is over the visual construction of TFA (or what can be gleaned about it from the pre-release material), my response is simply this: I've already seen what George Lucas can do. He acts like Lucas' mastery of the medium stops at ANH, but that was where, in my opinion, George was just getting warmed up.

Funny picture.

And I think you're right.

Looks like Disney/Abrams might have hoisted themselves by their own petard.

This is a boisterous, entitled fan base. Good luck trying to get -- let alone keep -- everyone on Team Disney.


But hey, I'm really not trying to be mean about it. I'd rather the film see success.

After all, if it's half the meme machine it's reported to be, this movie will be Abrams' own Death Star. Who's brave enough to try and blow it up?

Imitation is the sincerest form of plagiarism. If this film works, the credit still goes to George: for selling, for creating Star Wars, for making it a big-time 21st Century brand with the prequels, and for the potency of his earliest ideas, which TFA seems reliant on and desperate to sell back to people in a modern action film format. That'll be quite the proof of Lucas' long-lasting genius.

 

Calling Lucas "The Maker" or "Papa George" is creepy as hell by the way. It sounds like a cult.

 

They're terms of endearment.

Of course, some things, and some people, are more endearing than others...

 

And again, they just can't help themselves but to become perfect examples of themselves.

Like I said, anti-pt people using the same tactics to try to put down anyone that may have liked the Prequels through shame and insults. Now hey do it to protect TFA...

 

Furthermore, who can forget the intellectual zing of "Luca$", or all the enlivening comments about his "turkey" neck?

 

you're still interpreting it your own way which is negatively. negative being the operative word. agree with each other all you want. you specifically look for something you can feel negative about and then pat each other on the back. that's exactly what the pt bashers do.

 

Well, I'm not being critical of anyone here BUT I do believe TFA will be well received outside this forum. As I said on the 7SA forum, I think TFA will bring SW back into the mainstream. Don't get me wrong, the PT did very good business at the time, but SW has been in pop culture purgatory for a while now, and the PT being terrible is taken as a given in any sort of mainstream commentary on the series.

Now, you may think the PT is great; you may even think that people have been brainwashed to believe that the PT is terrible. But you can't deny that it's accepted largely as fact that the PT was, at best, disappointing. And the narrative around TFA, both in the media and in ordinary public discourse, will be that "Star Wars is back" and that TFA is everything the PT should have been. I damn near guarantee it.

 

A true shame that some will like any comment that puts down other fans that don't agree with them. I guarantee you that if someone posted a comment that included profanity and angrily told all the people who are concerned about TFA to calm down, it'd get quite a few likes. In a thread for PREQUEL FANS!

 

it already has. many times.