Am I supposed to feel SORRY for him?!!

Just a few comments:

1. Anakin has become a Sith. To save Padme he has sold his soul to the devil. He must destroy the Jedi and he must kill the younglings, because they would come back at the Sith one day.

2. As an example. If someone were to want to wipe out Islam. You would have to kill the Adults and Children, because the children have been indoctrinated to that religion. When they reached Adulthood they would restart the religion. By the way I have no bad feelings toward that religion, just using it as an example of the Jedi Order.

3. The Jedi (Yoda) told him that he just had to suck it up and let her die. They offered no chance. Palpy did.

Do you love someone?

Let me ask this question:

Would you sell your soul to the devil in order to save that person from death (or hell) if you thought that could save them?

If you answer NO, then you truly do not know unconditional love. You must love your own soul more.

Yes, I feel sorry for him.

Hail Sidious! LOL

 

Widowlander, very well said, you make an excellent point.

 

Unconditional love is not absolute love.

Unconditional love is love that has no demands on it. You love them no matter what.

You can still love someone and not be obsessed with preventing their death.

Anakin Skywalker's murder of Tusken raiders was the removing of the rock on a lot of people's viewpoints. A lot of people if their family IS attacked WOULD commit atrocities and WILL do whatever it takes to save their family above all else.

Frankly, its what nature demands.

Nurture is the opposite end

It's more a comment on human nature than anything else.

It's also why Anakin had to be shown crossing many more lines....he's a villain and chose to be a villain and knows he's a villain.

 

YES we are supposed to feel sorry for him. i think Lucas did a perfect job of showing his struggle while doing things he knew to be wrong, but he did because of his fear of loss of Padme. the line early in the movie where Anakin and Padme exchange "i'm so in love with you" to each other then she responds that "love has blinded you,Anakin". that was his downfall from the moment they meet.

His love for her drove him to the dark side of the force because Anakin thinks that is the only power that can save his beloved wife. He does horrible things for a love that had blinded his vision. Lucas shows with the tear drops, the "what have i done's", the "i am better than this " lines that he knows he is making a terrible mistake but the love for Padme drives him to make such choices.

I truly do fill sorry for him, but we know that his son, Luke, brings him back to the light, and makes him make that same type of choice again(Me or Palpatine) The End!

 

I felt sorry for him, and I think GL succeeded here (IMO). He was tricked. The carrot of Padme's life was dangled before his face and Palpatine used that to get Anakin to do ANYTHING. It reached a point where Anakin had done such horrible things, and crossed so many lines that not only the audience, but also he himself probably felt like he couldn't go back. The mere fact that he cries after the slaughter probably means that he isn't happy killing people. He gets consumed in the Dark Side (I thought GL nicely used the Sith eyes to visually demonstrate this). But then he loses Padme, (both emotionally "you're going down a path I cannot follow" and later on, physically). And she was his whole reason for doing everything in the first place.

Ultimately, he made a deal with the Devil, got screwed on the deal, and is now stranded in Hell for a long time, in servitude of the Devil. I pitied him in the "NOOOO" scene...by then, he was a monster, and a helpless, shackled one at that.

 

You aren't supposed to sympathize with him, feel sorry. You are supposed to understand why he did the things he did. But why so many people were literally crying over it is because truly we do love this character and all that he was and like if a family member suddenly turned horrible you know you cannot love him anymore but you wish he would come back. You wish. You desire. If my sister were to suddenly go psychopathic and kill someone you know this person is no longer your sister but you remember who she was and love THAT. To see your sister but know your sister no longer is inside that body is truly traumatizing and alienating. Yes, once he kills those children you know you no longer love him. But you love the memory of who he was and this is why its a tragedy.

 

He blew up a frikkin planet for god's sake. What'd you think there was nothing but grown-ups on the Alderaan or what?

He didn't blow up Alderaan, Tarkin did, and what do you think Palpatinbe built it for? Gardening? Tarkin was taking directives from Palps, since the DS was his commission. Vader didn't think of it, and didn't support it either. Watch that scene again. "What do you mean?"

What is going to do? Get zapped by Palps if he gets uppity.

 

I pity him. I certainly don't excuse him.

He murdered a room full of little kids, helped kill Mace and will go on to help murder every Jedi who survived the attack on the temple.

I shook my head at several points during the film and just muttered "Oh Anakin..." sadly. That's how I feel about it. It's weird the way ROTS left me. I feel he deserves everything he got... I'm a firm believer that no matter what you have the choice to do right over wrong. He acted selfishly and valued Padme's life over all else. The saddest thing in the film is to hear Vader's voice, which is so cold and emotionless in the OT, asking about Padme. It was almost shocking to hear, and really tore me up. He's sad, pathetic and ridiculously far gone. Obi-Wan is right to tell him so, and right to leave him to die.

I can be sad that he ended up that way, that he was too screwed up and sick and sad to make the right decision.

Was Anakin misled, tricked and completely used? Hell yes. Does he deserve what he got? Yep.

 

I am really glad that this thread was started (thanks Widowlander).

The original post was exactly how I was feeling (except that I did feel very uneasy about him being crippled and then being burnt - I really thought that Obi Wan was going to at least motion to try and save him - no one deserves to have that happen to them).

Ep 3 really gutted me and left me cold to the whole series (particularly the aspect of redemption in ROTJ). It just didn't gel anymore.

But then after reading a couple of other posts (particularly that of Qui-GonGinandJuice on Page 3 and Archetype on Page 4), I have been able reconcile my disappointment somewhat. I think that was why I visited the forums today, hoping that something would be written that made sense in respect to the whole saga. Thanks guys.

It does all come down to "points of view". If you look at the climax of ROTJ as not being the "act" of destroying the Emperor that redeems his character, but the fact that he truly feels sorry for what he has done and finally realises that, then there is room for a reconciliation (albeit with still a hint of egotism "tell your sister you were right about me").

Although that does make the inclusion of the young Anakin in ghost form even more out of place - it was only at the end that he understood about selflessness.

I still think the fall in Ep 3 was too quick etc (the character development and emotional outpouring was lacking in crucial scenes), but now I feel I need to see the film again.

 

Palpatine specifically said the Jedi are relentless.
He wanted them all wiped out so they would never be a threat to him again. His orders to his new apprentice were specific. Anakin had JUST joined the Sith. He had just killed Mace. He couldn't back up, it was too late. Anakin's cruelty in killing children is there for a reason. This IS Darth Vader after all, what did you expect? Remember, we saw this young Jedi slaughter a whole village in AOTC and "not just the men, but the women and the children too." Lucas is making certain we understand thoroughly just how evil he has become.

I felt compassion for him. He got a raw deal. But I also felt sorrow and compassion for his victims. The story does exactly what it should. Anakin got trapped by lies and his desire for power and he'll pay a price for life, without Padme', living in a walking iron lung. His motivation was noble, his methods absolutely despicable.

From EMPIRE: "Once you start down the dark path, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

Lucas is making a point, don't go down that road, there's no return past a certain point.

This is a great discussion, Lucas would probably be pleased that the movie got people to talking about this, because it is important to think about such issues.


I'm not particularly Christian, but Christ on the cross had understanding for the Romans who were crucifying him.

Look, good people don't NEED forgiveness, compassion and understanding. Those things are for those who have fallen, made mistakes, lost their way and their humanity.

This story is a teaching tool, a myth to reflect on human frailty. Feeling sorry for a fictional character's plight and learning from it are not the same as being approving a real murderer, such as Osama Bin Laden.

 

It is easy for some people to be good, and sometimes these good people don't really understand the sufferings, the efforts that a wicked person makes to be good. "Why don't you just be good?", the good person whose goodness came easily to him asks. And the wicked one, wiping a tear from his eye, replies "That is the one thing I have fought for all my life, to be good. That is the one thing I have suffered for all my life, to be good. And I have failed for the most part. Nonetheless, if we measure our moralities by suffering nights, by drops of blood, by screams to the desert wind, I maintain that one good act of mine is worth ten of yours. Because your goodness came easily to you. And I, though every night I wonder if it wouldn't be better to simply give in to the dark side, I still endure and believe in the good. You are like a man with healthy legs who criticizes a crippled man for only being able to run half as fast as he can. Yet the crippled man's being able to run at all, even once in his whole life, is worth a thousand of the healthy man's jogs around the block."

 

I feel pity for Anakin. Pity that he had it all and lost it. Pity that he made the wrong choices and he paid deeply for it.

 

I felt pity that he was tricked into doing what he did...but nothing more than that. I also feel pity that his decisions were based on visions that were clearly self-fulfilling (i.e. he caused Padme's death) and he could not see that.

He made absolutely all the wrong choices and it is clear from his comments pre-ROTS and pre-Tusken Raider slaughter that he harbored ambition and admiration for iron-fist rule (see his discussion with Padme on Naboo - too bad the dialogue is almost unwatchable)

It is clear that the trigger for his fall was a misguided attempt to save Padme, but once the trigger happens, his desire to rule the galaxy was controlling.

The bigger question is whether his acts in ROTJ fully redeems him. I'm guessing Lucas believe it does, I say no.

 

I made a distinction between Anakin and Vader, like in the OT how Obi-Wan says how they are two different people. I felt sorry for Anakin but not for Vader, they were basically opposite personalities.

 

"One you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

This is true, provided there is no forgiveness. If there is no forgiveness, there is no way out. Luke, with his love and forgiveness, makes Anakin realize he has a way out. To stop the evil. Not atone for it. Just stop it.

Even Lucas has said that Vader is not redeemable, just forgivable. (and not by the movie fan that can not forgive the slaying of children, but by a son who can forgive being privy to the slaying of entire worlds, and see the good in his father)

One last point. What would have happened if Obi Wan had not shown himself at that critical moment? Padme standing there broken hearted . . . would Anakin have been able to stop then?

The essence of tradgedy is that it could have been avoided in many places. Even then, confronting Padme, Anakin almost comes back. Seeing Obi Wan rekindels his hatred to a point that he nearly, and emphasise NEARLY but not quite, kills Padme.

 

I dunno about the rest of you, but it was hard for me to watch Anakin's fall. I've seen the movie 3 times now, and I'm starting to realize that when Anakin is pledging his allegiance to Sids he seems somewhat reluctant, it is not something he really wants to do but it's a means to an end. He's placating Sidious in some parts it feels like. I believe he would have tried to do away with Sidious afterward, but the dark side had other ideas,

 

I both pity and despise Anakin.

I pity him because he is racing against his own visions, which is something that would drive anyone mad. If they were just ordinary dreams, I wouldn't be able to understand. But they were prescient dreams, and he was haunted by the loss of his mother. It would be infuriating to me if I knew that someone I love was going to die and someone told me 'Let attachments out of your life.' I can understand why Anakin 'fell,' and sympathize with him a little bit. He was naive and a fool. Palpaltine was a Sith lord, and was infinitely wiser then Anakin. He preyed off his weaknesses and used them against him. Anakin was really at a disadvantage, as Sidious could feel his emotions and sense his thoughts. I know that if I was in the emotional state that Anakin was when he talked to Sidious, I would find it hard not to turn. Sidious also had a tongue of silver, so to speak. He exploited Anakin's weaknesses.

However, his decision to kill the younglings was cruel, and nothing can erase the evilness of that act. It was ruthless and cold-hearted, and it makes me loathe him, especially since he was 'doing this all for Padme.' I truly believe that was his motive in the beginning.

Also, the SW universe is not ours. Anakin is not a regular human like the rest of us, or so is my theory. That is why it was such a stupid decision to go to the dark side. I think that as soon as he accepted the name of Vader, the darkness was already spreading within him. It ultimately consumed him. It killed Anakin Skywalker as we knew him. (Cute little Jake Lloyd). He could not have possibly known the extent of the dark side, and how it would be his ultimate undoing. Go read the Matthew Stover novelization. I think that he was remorseful, and probably hated himself for what he had done. But he could not stop it- 'Once you embark on the path to the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny.' It was a path of no return.

Obi-Wan's line, while a contradiction in itself, also has a lot of interesting points in it. 'Only the Sith deal in absolutes.' Anakin had to be, in his mind, absolutely committed to the dark path or the light path. There was no in-between, and when he started on one, he could not stop. Example-- 'I must obey my master.' Right then, in Vader's mind, there was no choice, no way that he could run away with Luke. He realized the falseness of this later, knowing that he could ultimately turn back, but he had no idea then.

Anakin also spends a lot of his time trying to live up to and exceed his expectations. Wearing the mantles of 'Chosen One' and 'Hero with no Fear' would be difficult. He feels like he should be something that he is not, which is difficult for anyone.

The final, cutting edge at the end is when, in the Stover novelization, Anakin realizes that he was to blame for Padme's death, and he finally realizes Sidious' cruelty and deception. In this moment, I believe he finally becomes heartless, almost without a soul. He buries Anakin Skywalker, and every instant is hell for him. He had nothing left to live for, and so obeys his master unconditionally. I think he deserved it too.

The youngling slaughter was unnecessary, I believe. It makes the tragedy greater, and shows that Anakin was truly desperate to save Padme's life. It is also heartbreaking to think of the life he might have lead as what the Jedi saw as 'The Chosen One.'

Overall, I do pity Anakin, and think he was redeemed. In the end, he was kind of a slave to destiny. It kind of goes along with the whole 'prophesy' thing. He was doomed, IMO, to turn to the dark side to ultimately bring balance to the force. He was not doomed to be the cause of Padme's death or kill the younglings. That is what makes this whole story so sad.

 

You just have to put yourself in Anakin's shoes. He was desperate to save the republic, and even more desperate to save padme. He would do anything to do this.

Palpatine tricks anakin and twists is mind into a complete 180 and thinks that palpatine really wants to save the republic and bring peace. The only differece is under an empire and rule it with an iron fist to make sure personally that it stays at peace. Palpy slowly gets his empire as time progresses as the senate keeps ammending the constitution and give palpatine more and more power. and eventually,he even gets control of the jedi temple! Which is how Anakin got on the counsil in the first place.

Anyways, Anakin REALLY thought he was doing the right thing. He REALLY thought that mace was trying to assasinate palpatine. He REALLY thought the jedi betrayed him and the republic. Anakin really didnt think the darkside was that bad. I mean, palpatine has been his friend since forever. He is the only one who listens to him and gets the answers he wants to hear. He offers a way to save padme (which he says he found out how, but when anakin is pledgeing himself to the sith, he says something like "together, I know we can figure out the key to plagious's power.")

So Anakin found out that his only true friend, was a sith lord himself. And he was a nice man! Anakin thought he was lied to about how the sith were so evil. That is why he does not fear to join their ranks.

So really, I would be just as confused as anakin was and not know where or who to turn to. But knowing the history of the sith, and knowing what evil deeds they all committed, you would know that something would go wrong eventually, which would lead me back to the jedi.

 

..if anyone is having a problem feeling sorry for Vader NOW, your a few years too late.

..anyone remember a movie called ANH? The one where he and Tarkin blew up AN ENTIRE PLANET for hiding rebels?

This isnt a fault with ROTS.

 

I think you are supposed to hate Vader by the end of ROTS. Killing little kids? C'mon, the man is evil and insane. Which makes his redemption all the greater.

 

I felt sorry that he was so jaded and hell bent on trying to prevent death. It was sad to see him soooo easily led down the dark path by Sidious... I mean Anakin literally gave himself to the darkside, nothing more than an instrument in Palpatines quest for domination... In the final scene when Vader freaks out, the Emperor almost looks delighted at what Anakin has become, that is sad...

 

He didn't blow up Alderaan, Tarkin did, and what do you think Palpatinbe built it for? Gardening? Tarkin was taking directives from Palps, since the DS was his commission. Vader didn't think of it, and didn't support it either. Watch that scene again. "What do you mean?"

Does it matter who did it, Vader did not stop it and he made his own daughter watch I saw the scene when he pulled her back and made her watch no wonder why she had such hatred for him

 

Up for redundant thread on page one.

 

I don't know if I do or not...

But my question is, should I and what does it mean if I do feel sorry for him?

Look at it this way. Lets say that we do feel sorry for him; he was mislead and all that. Or maybe he did evil out of love. If so, then there is no surprise of his redemption in ROTJ. It will be obvious; we will just be waiting for it to happen (I do NOT just mean 'it's a movie, it must have a happy ending').

But if we do not feel sorry for him, it may be too unbelievable when he is redeemed in ROTJ.

But also there must be some reason for the fall, and understanding that reason will change ones perspective on the persons fall.

It was a fine line Lucas had to walk, and IMO he did it as well as I could have hoped (which is quite well). I feel sorry for him, but I also feel he is completely gone.

But it's all a matter of opinion.

Also, redemption in the SW universe is not handed out by God; it is a personal shift. Actually, maybe redemption is not the best word. He can still embrace the light, but without atoning for his past crimes, he is not really redeemed. They are slightly different states and we would be wise not to confuse them. Personally killing the emperor and saving his son I feel are not enough to redeem him, but obviously he does come back to the light.

One you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

It sure did in the throne room of the second death star?

Penkhull

Only the Sith deal in absolutes

And the Jedi don't?

That line really reminded me of KOTOR 2.