PT AotC explanation??

Martoto77 , it also goes against the film's theme as well. It wasn't just that the Jedi were played, but that they were ripe to be played. Considering the Jedi Council as flawless and faultless is, well, very Jedi Council circa 40-19 BBY thinking. It is more that they became complacent and arrogant than stupid and clueless. We aren't supposed to agree with Palpatine, but we are supposed to use him as a magnifying glass to the Jedi problems.

I always find it interesting that the Jedi didn't follow their own code in their rescue attempt on Geonosis. They let their attachment to "their own" override the simple question "Is this worth igniting a galaxy wide war over?" In the case of Naboo, they constantly talked about not getting directly involved with the war itself. Negotiators: yes. Warriors: no. Because there were no Jedi "suffering and dying". But the minute OB1 and Anakin get into trouble, in comes the cavalry.

Even OT Yoda and OB1 were still flawed. Just like they withheld information from the Senate, they withheld info from young Luke. There answer was still "kill the Sith".

And it was more than the Jedi that were flawed. Padme was easily manipulated into bypassing "committees". Almost everything can be traced back to impatience with democracy.

This isn't bad writing though. It is the meat of one of the larger themes.

 

I totally agree that the subtext is the Jedi's partial responsibility for their own downfall. The way that some of their oversights played out though, I feel, could have been written more convincingly. As such there was a lack of tension in watching them virtually destroy themselves over the course of a movie and a half. There could have been some indication that not all the Jedi were that credulous all the time, and that they were on the brink of uncovering the mystery at any point.

There's a feeling of too little too late (in the writing) in Yoda and Mace's brief chat about too many Jedi being arrogant these days, then nodding their heads. Pity they couldn't have perceived that trend at some earlier point over the past 13 years and put those heads together to mitigate its effects, particularly in response to political upheaval that it coincides with, rather than just being passive-aggressive towards each other and the Senate.

 

Martoto77 I sometimes feel that way as well. That a really great story is there if it were just tightened up a bit. And in many ways, that is true. Sometimes when I think about little tweaks, it can solve one problem but create two to three more. So I address those by tweaking more to keep the story and original tweak in harmony. But it can tend to unravel the whole thing.

And there is also this idea to consider. If Lucas was more heavy handed in drawing distinctions, it could take away from the atmosphere that everybody can spot some of the problems, but nobody has the full solution. We want to empathize that a semi-outsider like Anakin is coming to terms that the Jedi might be part of the problem, but as viewers we also want to feel the conflict and frustration ourselves. In other words, we can see how we can find ourselves in Mace's situation. Enough of these games. I'm going to finish this once and for all. We can find ourselves in OB1's situation of being caught between the Republic and his attachment to his padawan. We can see ourselves as Yoda second guessing everything. Knowing something is wrong, but only being able to proceed with caution until more "concrete proof" presents itself.

We don't want the "Mary Sue" that essentially comes in to figure it all out and save everybody from themselves. Palps was the closest thing to a Mary Sue. But having a very strong villain is good storytelling.

 

this is nonsense . where is this proven fact ? we're talking about what the jedi know in-universe remember .

yeah he's got a job with the seps , so what ?

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I don't think anyone's saying the Jedi were flawless in their handling of the situation. They were only people too, and people make mistakes. So do law enforcement and the governments in real life. Just think of the US government at the moment. At least the Jedi were far more competent over all. The Jedi Order was flawed in many ways and they were clouded by the Dark Side especially at the time of the Clone Wars.

 

The Jedi know Jango isn't working for them, as the Kaminoans seem to believe. And Jango himself has no knowledge of a Jedi that supposed to have hired him.

The Jedi know that the archives have been tampered with and discover the enemy there when they eventually locate Kamino.

So would it be "so what?" if the Jedi worked for the separatists and the republic at the same time? What sort of logic is that? He's the enemy but that doesn't mean we should suspect anything because, potentially, he'd be working for the republic IF they hired him?

Sidious was working with the TF and with the Queen of Naboo. I guess that means that nothing suspicious should have been inferred about went on there, if that had been discovered at the time?

Do people here owe Jango and Dooku money or something that their willing to ignore the fact that he's in the employ of the enemy, attacking the Jedi that the Kaminoans claim he is working for, and helping clone an army and attempting to assassinate republic senators who might oppose the use of a hypothetical republic army?

 

But they could just as easily conclude that it was meant to stop them from finding the army they *ordered*. Maybe they figured Dooku did the erasing, but because Dooku was afraid that Jedi Sifo Diyas' plan put Dooku's plan in jeopardy. They outsmarted Dooku. Pat themselves on the back.

But to the larger point, they should have been suspicious. If not for the very fact that they didn't even know this decade old army was ever ordered. Even if Jango wasn't there at the time, still suspicious. Even if Jango didn't escape to Geonosis, still suspicious. Even if Jango didn't stand by Dooku's side and fight on the Separatists' side, still suspicious.

Jango just ups the ante. But it also makes the Jedi suspicious of each other. And that would weaken a stronger investigation.

 

Which would be highly suspicious. Suspicious enough for some of the story to be devoted to how the Jedi act on those suspicions or at least how their suspicions were allayed with some degree of credibility. And I don't mean in a spin off TV show that comes out years afterwards.

I wish that the series from that point on did give us an impression that the Jedi began to trust each other less and less. The only time this idea comes close to being verbalised is by Anakin. But then he immediately admonishes Padme when she suggests that maybe the circumstance of the Republic being drawn into and continues to prosecute the war is an indication of what is wrong. The Jedi took to commanding the clone army seemingly without many qualms (except for Yoda's broad "shroud of the dark side" having fallen remark (and that's it)

 

I would have had no problem if the PT was stretched into four or more films. The general viewing public might have had problems with that however. I can see the reviews now: "They spend 30 minutes of the film just investigating the background of the clone troopers. It's called Star Wars, not Starlock Holmes."

Speaking of little tweaks, as the PT was rolling out, I always thought it would have been cool to see Vader become more machine than man slowly rather than in one high ground move. On this mission, he loses an arm. On another mission, part of his hamstring is blown out in a rescue attempt. He is such a dedicated warrior that he constantly puts himself in mortal danger. And we see him slowly become more and more machine over the stretch of three or more movies.

I even would have loved to see TPM Anakin get shot down and rescued only to reveal he has a mechanical hand at the victory ceremony. And you immediately see that it has affected his psyche. He's no longer full of non-stop smiles. Mortality has become real for him. This trauma will haunt, shape and start the long transformation of selfless kid to the "I can only trust myself" OT Vader. Now he's not just simply mad at OB1 in AotC. He's traumatized.

 

I think losing his arm in AotC, as well as the earlier foreshadowing in the Droid Factory scene was plenty. If he constantly kept losing limbs, he would have come off as too weak and incompetent, IMHO. By the time of RotS, he was at the top of his game and pretty much unbeatable, except when he was overcome by emotion in his duel against Obi. Plus, it would have undermined his monumental defeat at the hands of Kenobi, and the punishment he deserved for his colossal failure.

 

I didn't mean THAT much more time. The Battle Of Coruscant is essentially the pre titles sequence of ROTS. It goes on and on forever and could easily have been pruned to allow time to at least give some credibility to the acceptance of the clones. I imagine.

I think it seems from the fact that the PT evolved quite a lot during and in between production. In other words, it wasn't all planned out from the beginning. ROTS loses as much as it gains from being left to carry most of the crucial backstory that the PT had been promised to deliver.

 

I wouldn't equate the Jedi equivalent of the Purple Heart or Medal of Honor as too weak and incompetent. It would be showing Anakin facing battle challenges that other Jedi considered suicide. It would expand on his need to go back to help the clone pilots in RotS as an extension to protect those he felt needed only he could protect. And it would be a visual representation of just that. His "taking a bullet" would only highlight just how brave he was by illustrating the dangers are real to even the greatest Jedi warrior.

I'm not sure it would have undermined his defeat at the hands of Kenobi In fact, it might explain why Kenobi was able to pull off the same move in TPM that Anakin could not in RotS.

It is also why I think one can have fun talking about the PT and flexing your own creative muscle without necessarily making it a critique of the PT itself.

 

Just giving my two cents. In the original Clone Wars micro-series, he does lose his cyborg arm while rescuing the natives on that planet which name I can't remember, and he has to get a new one. That's pretty close to your idea.

 

Lucas can't please everybody. And I fully recognize that my ideas are for my own enjoyment rather than it being "right". Especially since my one off thoughts are far from fully developed, let alone a series of movies that is out there to nitpick. My thoughts can definitely be shown to have their own flaws. I simply consider that a new avenue to explore and further tweak as opposed to vindication/failure.

I've never even tried to go the extra mile and actually create a full "fanfic" alternative or expansion. Instead, I throw out some thoughts for discussion. Maybe even a fanfic writer with actual talent for a finished product might use it as inspiration. It is why I love collaboration and similar creative lifting of one another in my actual hobby, music.

 

So someone win this up for me.
What was Lucas's intent and how did the Jango/Dooku thing slip by him?

I'm thinking that he found the plothole too late in production to re film stuff, but added Yoda's "shroud of the dark side" line as a band aid?

Or the theme of the movie is overconfidence and he just handwaved the issue away even though iit's a bit too much to handwave away like that.

 

Yoda said it himself in pretty clear terms: "Yes, yes. A flaw more and more common among the Jedi. Too sure of themself they are. Even the older, more experienced ones." It's not a secret or some out there fan theory. It's a theme in clear display not only throughout AotC, or the prequel trilogy, but the entire saga. Obi-Wan and Yoda continue to be too confident on the rightood of their methods all the way up to RotJ, until Luke proves them wrong at the end.

 

Precisely.
I feel it's a pity though that it requires Yoda and Windu's brief "harrumphing" session midway through ROTS (3 years into the war) and explicitly acknowledging the root cause of the disaster that they still don't perceive is about to befall them.


I believe that Lucas did intend there to be a subtext of ambivalence towards the Jedi order. The problem is we really only see Anakin and Obi Wan's relationship which, try as I might to detect it, doesn't really symbolically consolidate the underlying tensions and flaws which will undo the Jedi as a community. All I get out of it is that they are friends but there's also a little bit of jealousy and one-upmanship there. But that doesn't really shed a lot of light on the problems of the Jedi. At least not in the context of any of the attitudes about society that Lucas has expressed himself, even ones that he says he intended to use in the movies.

There are tiny hints at the usual institutional flaws of "do as we say, not as we do", but there is not enough exposure to more Jedi, the great and the not so great ones, in order for us to build a picture of what's at stake, how to prevent losing it and how the Jedi are going the wrong way of holding on to it. Not in any particularly credible way.

 

I don't think you're giving Lucas enough credit as fsr ss the flawed order stuff.
TPM uses Qui-Gon illustrate this.
Q even implies that Yoda and the others are not thinking clearly when he corrects Obi Wan's Yoda quote about beinf mindful of the future by adding "but not at the expense of the moment".

 

I don't think much more was needed. The Jedi hadn't become corrupt or abusive of their position of power. They had simply become inactive, stagnant, dogmatic. They were too used to meditating on their comfy little council chairs rather than keeping their eyes open to possible threats conspiring against the Republic (pretty understandable, as there had not been a war in a thousand years), as they thought they'd defeated the Dark Side once and for all, which is why they couldn't believe the Sith still existed. Even after the Sith were revealed, they were too overconfident about their power and capabilities to easily destroy them. Think of how Yoda goes in on Palpy all thug like, and Palpy even calls him arrogant before schooling him. They didn't think they were that much of a threat, until after it became clear that the head of the Republic was the Sith, which is when Mace finally gets spooked enough to take matters into his own hands.

 

It wasn't a slip. It was a catalyst.

 

I absolutely give Lucas credit for his intent, throughout the PT. The problem,I feel, is that moments like that are only tokens that you'll miss if you blink, and which are not sustained enough with any corresponding action or motif. These little footholds are so sparse that it's hard not to fall of the wall while because you're so distracted by the seemingly willfully reckless credulity and lack of authentic dialogue about the currency of the Jedi's principles or how they choose to act on them.

It's like I said about institutional flaws. Specifically the old "do as we say, not as we do" chestnut. It;s played out so willfully and without serious argument from anyone who ought to be listened to until way, way too late in the middle of ROTS. And Yoda's lament around that time ,suggesting that we all had this coming (whatever it is) and that he's been saying so. But he hadn't. Nobody reall has since Qui Gon died , and he never really made his opinions forcefully enough, The Jedi are all to passive aggressive. Bloody hippies! Am I right, George?

 

Eh, I totally disagre. I thought you operating from logic before, but now you're being an ideologue.
Lucas objectively makes the flawed order very clear. That shouldnt be in dispute. All I was saying was that it doesnt exuse the Dooku Jango thing.

 

What you are suggesting is "dumbing it down". I give Lucas credit for not doing that.

 

No I'm suggesting the opposite. Which is why I'm critical of the scene where Yoda and Windu spell it out and tut and shake their heads. But it was necessary because nothing that could be seen to be a compelling reflection of that.

The idea of the Jedi being unable to see the danger more clearly or earlier is fine. But what comes across Jedi that seem to have almost no conception of there being a danger to see, apart from the presumed external threats of the Sith and the Separatists.

I'd have found it more credible if the Jedi were shown to be unable to draw necessary conclusions, rather than seem perversely ignorant. At least at some point of the trilogy.

We're told that the Jedi are at their peak during this era. It seemed to me that they were well past it by the time of TPM.

 

But again, look at TPM. Look at Mace's response when Qui Gon says that he saw a sith.

Also, when are the Jedi said to be at their peak in the PT?