PT AOTC -- Major Flaw in the Entire Plot

No, they don't. There's room to speculate, but there's never any moment where anybody talks about why Han didn't pay Jabba back when he had the chance, after ANH. It's a plot hole and character motivation that's never fully resolved, and really all that can be said is that it's there to create tension and conflict between him and Leia during their love story. Logically, there's no justification for as to why Han didn't pay off Jabba. He just joins the Rebellion, and seems to forget about the massive debt he has to an intergalactic gangster.

 

The Sifo-Dyas mystery is also "pretty much explained". At the end of AOTC the Jedi say they're going to investigate the matter. By ROTS they're still using the Clones. The only logical conclusion to draw is that the JC vetted the Clones and the trail ended at S-D. If anything, the burden is on the script of ROTS to address the matter. Since it doesn't, not only does this exonerate AOTC from being "flawed" but it also makes the question a moot point. The trail ended at Sifo-Dyas.

This doesn't take any more imagination or use of reasoning than the Han/Jabba question.

Awesome! I can give you a similar speculative paragraph expounding on why the Jedi must have trusted Sifo-Dyas' judgement. How can you not see that the same post-hoc rationalization you're doing above with Lando is of the same imaginative caliber as our explanation of the Clone Army? Both make as much sense and both are ultimately irrelevant to the flow of the plot. It's just part of the background that we can fill in with allusions in the dialogue.

Right, that's a good point. Similarly, in AOTC (in the next-to-last scene) we're told that Dooku is the Sith lord Tyrannus. We are also told that "the Dark Side clouds everything", including the Jedi's vision. There may be some connection between Dooku and the Clones, perhaps one involving Sifo-Dyas, but the Jedi don't know what that link is, or whether it would somehow denigrate the Clones. Since it appears as though S-D, a visionary member of the JC, ordered the Clones, the matter of the Fett connection appears immaterial to the JC. The presence of a mysterious third party -- Tyrannus, who the Jedi do not know is Dooku -- puts distance between Sifo-Dyas and Jango Fett.

This behind-the-scenes reasoning is as solid as it is with the OT, that's my main point in all this. There are open questions in both trilogies which you can solve or come close to explaining by mining the dialogue for clues and clarifications. And you can look for specifics in EU. Asking questions and giving our own thoughtful responses, based on clues, rumors and EU details, is part of what makes SW so much fun, and keeps forums like this one alive.

 

When Han came back at the end of ANH and saves Luke, Leia and the Rebellion, there's some dialogue exchanged where Han explains that he came back because he didn't want Luke to take all of the credit and all of the reward. We as the audience are not meant to take this literally. Instead we're meant to believe that Han returns because he felt he needed to help his friends who were in danger. He's just the kind of guy who doesn't explain his true feelings like that.

His same motivations for saving Luke and Leia in ANH carry over in TESB. We're not told specifically how long TESB is from ANH on film, but we are told that the rebels have been driven from their base and are being pursued across the galaxy. Does that not sound like they still need help? He keeps putting them first above himself. But then on Ord Mantell he runs into a Bounty Hunter who changes his mind.

Logically there is justification for why Han didn't pay off Jabba right away. He felt the immediate problem was keeping Luke and Leia alive. Keeping them from falling into the hands of the Empire. If your friends are being pursued by the Empire and Lord Vader, when during that is the right time to fly away to Tatooine? It's difficult. Finally when he thinks they're safe on Hoth, he decides its time to part.

 

I'm not saying this doesn't carry over into ROTS. The two films are joined at the hip regarding this plot point.

But the trail did not end with Sifo-Dyas nor is it possible for the audience to reasonably believe the Jedi vetted the clones and were ultimately fine about it.

Obi-Wan believes Dyas to have been dead before the order was placed and then the clone template flies off to Geonosis where he meets up with an ex-Jedi Master who just happens to be building another army. Not only that, but we were told Jedi do not have possessions of their own and yet we are told by Dexter Jettster that the Kaminoans are expensive to hire essentially. Common sense tells you that an army that can cover the galaxy has to be rather expensive. So how is Sifo-Dyas a dead end? Evidence is mounting that he was dead before the order was placed and couldn't possibly have paid for that army without help and the clone template says he was hired by a man called Tyranus. Who is Tyranus? Then Jango leads them to Count Dooku who would fit the bill of a Jedi who could have erased Kamino from the archives.

The possibility that Dooku was involved is on the table. Thus no dead end at Dyas nor a vetting that ends with being content enough to be surprised by the clones turning on them much later.

Amazing! I can do that too.

If the investigator thinks Dyas was dead before the order was placed and the money is far beyond what Dyas could afford, and the clone template mentions being hired by a man called Tyranus and the clone template flies off to join a former Jedi turned to the dark side, how can the Jedi still trust that it was Dyas?

The origin of the clone army is not irrelevant to the flow of the plot when it becomes the knife that cuts the throat of the Jedi Order and enslaves the galaxy.

As for Lando, he wears a mask/helmet. There is an attempt to disguise himself. The only one we know knows who Lando Calrissian is, is the the bounty hunter Boba Fett. Is it difficult to believe Lando could get hired without a bounty hunter finding out? No.

 

The trail dead-ends at S-D and Tyrannus. That third, unknown party deflects the Dooku connection and introduces the possibility of a financier. If the Jedi hypothesize that Tyrannus was wealthy, this removes the question as to how S-D could have afforded the Army.

There is doubt as to the timing of S-D's death. The wording is ambiguous. "Almost ten years ago"; "I was under the impression he died before that" -- before when? Before exactly ten years ago, to the day? Nobody knows the precise timeline as to when S-D ordered the Army, and Kenobi's investigations fail to clarify the point.

Fett is a bounty hunter whose allegiance is bought and paid for. Dooku employs him; Tyrannus employed him. How many other employers has he had? Are they all suspects in the creation of the Clones? The Jedi cannot see the ephemeral, non-evidential connection in part because the Dark Side clouds their vision.

You're taking certainties away from mysteries, then insisting the film is flawed based on your incorrect conclusions.

The exhortation to "please stop dragging the EU into this" is absurd. You're asking for a point of clarification on a story element, and we're supplying that based on the literature. The answers are there, you're simply ignoring them so you can cry foul. One can watch the films and conclude that the Jedi vetted the Clones without knowing the specific details as to how or why. The know the specifics, read the EU.

I am by no means saying that you're not a "true star wars fan because [you] have a problem with part of the PT plot". On the contrary, I feel very strongly that we're all fans here, with all our different tastes and preferences! What I am saying is that you appear to be unwilling to suspend your critical thinking over an ambiguous, intentional mystery in order to enjoy Ep.II, while you do suspend those same, critical thought processes for the sake of similar mysteries in the OT.

The remainder of your reply has already been rebutted and addressed. If you don't find our position convincing, oh well! It's entirely up to you to dislike the movie and/or to criticize it for what you perceive to be a plot hole. I've analyzed the matter at length, as you have, and I for one am satisfied with what I turned up.

Also, you keep neglecting the stated fact that the Dark Side clouds the Jedi's vision.

 

Because Yoda investigated the matter further and found out that it was. Don't forget that the Jedi temple has a security holorecording system, a fact which may be relevant. Given that there is a three-year gap between the films, events took place which the audience did not see. [ Oops, I think I did something I wasn't supposed to do. ]

Fett is a mercenary. Mercenaries have a long and documented history of working both sides of a conlict. Next.

Exactly - why would Dooku create an army to oppose and potentially neutralize the military efforts of his own forces? Without the missing information of Palpatine = Sidious this would not be a logical conclusion for the Jedi. In fact, it would be the opposite. It might seem obvious due to the benefit of foreknowledge/hindsight and audience privilege, but that is nothing more than illusion.

 

The possibility of the name Tyranus being an alias would not be ruled out if they have no idea who Tyranus is. Just as the possibility that a Jedi the investigator believes to be dead before the order was placed had his name used by someone else to order the clones in the name of the Jedi Order. These are rather common sense possibilities you'd put on the table back at headquarters. A few note cards, a cup of coffee, and an hour at the desk should be enough to at least come up with a theory as to the connections.

Oh I agree that it is ambiguous but the intent seems clear. In the audience mind, the last thing we hear on Dyas is that the investigator believes that he died before the order was placed.

Of course the entire dialogue is screwy. Before Obi-Wan even knows about the clone army, he tells Lama Su that Dyas died almost ten years ago. This doesn't alarm Lama Su because logically almost ten years ago doesn't mean 10 years ago to a normal person. However then Obi-Wan tells Yoda and Mace that he was under the belief Dyas died before then. Which means he was essentially covering up the true date of Dyas's death to Lama Su before he even knew why or even what specific time period he should say to Lama Su so as not to alarm him. Had he said Master Dyas died 11 years ago, Lama Su probably would have been beside himself.

Technically yes. Past employers of Fett are suspects since they have no idea if Tyranus is a real name or an alias. However, suspect number one should be the guy Fett flies to the side of directly after fleeing Kamino who just happens to be an ex-Jedi turned to the dark side who is also in the army building business.

 

If he found a recording from 10 plus years ago of Dyas logging into their records and erasing Kamino, that would have been a nice thing to bring up on film for the audience. As it stands, the audience isn't even told there are holorecordings until near the end of the third film when the clones have already turned on the Jedi and we're past the mystery. Plus it still doesn't explain in the slightest how a Jedi with no possessions paid for the army. Which at the very least would have them searching for Tyranus. Whether he's real or just an alias.

So you're saying the Jedi believed the Sith were fooled by a bounty hunter? Out of all the bounty hunters Dooku could have chosen, he picks the one that happens to be making another army to oppose his?

Dooku threw them the possibility that a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious controls the Republic. They don't need to know Palpatine is Sidious. Senator so and so could be Sidious and still hold terrible influence. So the possibility of the Sith creating two armies is out there.

If that theory is out there, then the possibility that the clones have a sinister purpose should be enough for the Jedi to find earlier ways to ensure the Jedi Order survives.

 

When you things like "You can figure" or "You're supposed to figure" that goes under the category of speculation 'cause that means it wasn't said or explained outright in the films. Yes it made sense for his character to come back to help during the battle of Yavin 'cause the threat was imminent, but can you honestly belive that Han had no belief in being able to leave Luke and Leia with the Rebels for a few days without all Hell breaking loose upon them? He for sure cared about them, but he wasn't completely paranoid about their safety and thought he was the only thing keeping them from death or danger, especially if they'd have an army surrounding them. Yeah he was needed for some things, but not everything. If it were a few months to a year maybe. But we've been told it is a three year gap between films. Plus as brought up before, him being with the Rebels with a bounty on his head makes harboring him very dangerous as any of the bounty hunters who'd come across him and find out about the rebels would dfeinitely sell them out to the Empire.

 

The audience hears that two events happened "almost ten years ago", putting them both in the same general time frame. Either one could have happened first. [ Here, it may be worthy of note that in EU Sifo-Dyas was dead by the time Jango arrived at Kamino, but not when the army was ordered, and this may account for some of the confusion. ]

Understandably so, because Sifo-Dyas didn't die 11 years ago ( and there is no indication in the film that he did ).

Which would still lead them nowhere, as it did.

Actually, in the EU the Jedi believed that Dooku knew about the clones and thus felt pressure to raise a droid army before the clone army ( which he expected to fight for the Republic ) was trained and ready.

It's arguable that any initial uncertainty the Jedi may have had regarding the clones would have been at least partially mitigated during three years of war in which the clones performed completely faithfully as comrades-in-arms, including Geonosis.

 

In the actual films it was not stated to be three years. So to the viewing audience, TESB could very well take place much earlier.

But about three years is a decent run without running into trouble until Ord Mantell. On Tatooine he probably ran into Bounty Hunters left and right, but hopping across the galaxy it would seem to be less. Could have been lured into a false sense of security. The idea that Jabba can't reach him and he can keep the entire Yavin reward. Plus his friends need him and there's always the danger of confronting Jabba.

I can believe that once the Death Star was destroyed, it wasn't long before they were on the run. Since the entire Rebellion is wanted by the Galactic Empire, many of the rebel commanders probably have bounties on their heads. Lando imprisoned Imperial Officers on Bespin, he probably has one too or on a most wanted list. As for Han endangering the Rebels, General Rieekan didn't seem all that concerned during his conversation with Han on Hoth.


Han: *tells Rieekan he has to leave*

Rieekan: "I'm sorry to hear that."

Han: *explains the bounty*

Rieekan: "A death mark's not an easy thing to live with. You're a good fighter solo, I hate to lose you."

They're desperate for good pilots, leaders, and probably smugglers. So whatever baggage he brings is trumped by his usefulness. They're all being hunted.

 

Obi-Wan tells Lama Su, Dyas died almost ten years ago.

Obi-Wan then tells Yoda and Mace that they (Kaminoans) say a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago.

Obi-Wan then says "I was under the impression he was killed before that" to Mace and Yoda.



Why would he think Dyas was dead before the order was placed unless he died during a period of time that was not in the general time frame of "almost ten years ago." Notice how he uses the word "a" when he refers to Dyas. Insinuating that maybe their master Dyas is not the right Master Dyas.

The last the audience hears of Dyas is that investigator Obi-Wan Kenobi is not convinced Dyas did this deed. Then, the audience is presented with a new suspect.

Possibly. But the 11 years was just an example. I could have said 22 years ago in my example. The point was that there was only one period of time that Obi-Wan could have said that wouldn't have alarmed Lama Su before Obi-Wan even knew there was the possibility of alarming him by saying anything beyond 10 years ago.

Saying almost ten years ago to Lama Su works fine until the scene with Yoda and Mace where Obi-Wan confesses he's believes Dyas to have been dead before a period around "almost ten years ago."

Which means if he truly felt that way, then he probably would have been honest with Dyas in their convo earlier as he didn't know he had to cover anything regarding that.

Not if they are open to the idea that Tyranus could be an alias of someone.

So how does the EU account for Dooku's actions when Jango arrives at Geonosis with a Jedi following him and yet Dooku makes absolutely no attempt to evacuate or get the starships back into space before the Jedi take over the clone army? Was there just no excuse Dooku could have given to implement that? If the Jedi believe that Dooku knew about the clones and felt rushed to raise an army, surely throwing a party and letting the defenses down if you believe the Jedi now know of the army seems odd right?

Though at least part of that would be undercut at the possibility that the Senate is under the influence of a Sith and thus they are all working for the Dark Lord.

 

11 years, 22 years, 450 years, it doesn't matter. It's a rewrite either way. There is still no indication in the film ( or anywhere else in canon ) that Obi-Wan is lying to Lama Su. It may be theoretically possible, but unsupported speculation of this sort does not serve as compelling evidence of a plot hole.

It still works fine in that scene, because an Event A being before an Event B which is "almost ten years ago" does not necessarily mean that Event A must be more than ten years ago.

I meant that looking for Tyranus only leads to a dead end and is something they can be assumed to have done.

The Jedi investigations which take place offscreen may tell a different story. The audience doesn't hear a special rule that says first impressions are always correct in SW, and if the audience is really paying attention they might notice Yoda's admonishment to not assume anything.

I suspect you're reading from the online script, which does indeed have an "a" in that place. Check the film. Obi-Wan doesn't say the "a". In the film, Sifo-Dyas is an actual Jedi with whom Obi-Wan is acquainted.

 

The evidence is Obi-Wan later confessing to his superiors that he believes Dyas was killed before the time period of "almost ten years ago." That and when he speaks to Lama Su in the earlier scene he improvises just about the entire conversation with "That is...good news" "when my master first contacted you" and "that's why I'm here." So it comes across as though that too was a bit of improvisation if what he tells Yoda and Mace what he truly believes.

It doesn't have to be more than ten, but still more than "almost ten years ago."

Well that's fine. So long as we can agree that they would suspect it to be an alias at some point.

Which the rest of the assume anything quote includes "clear your mind must be if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot." Because the assume quote was in context of the Amidala assassination attempts. Not the Dyas portion of Obi-Wan's message.

Then again Yoda goes around telling Anakin not to miss people and then Yoda goes and tells Chewbacca and Tarfful he will miss them.

Yeah they did throw in hologram interference in place of the a in the film. But I wasn't suggesting Dyas never existed at all. Just that Obi-Wan doesn't believe the real Dyas did this deed.

 

Likewise it was half-assed of Luke to not believe Vader when he said he was his father. It's common knowledge amongst the fanbase (or at least it should be) that the "Join me" offer that Dooku made was a deliberate foreshadowing of the same offer that Vader makes to Luke. What's great about the Dooku scene is that he tells Obi-wan the truth but, because of the context he which he makes the offer, Obi-wan thinks he's being lied to.

 

If it's earlier than an event "almost ten years ago", but still less than ten years ago, it's still "almost ten years ago", just closer to the ten-year-mark.

That's not evidence, it's nothing more than reaching and speculation. There is no indication in the film that Obi-Wan lies to Lama Su, while we know from an EU work which benefited from direct Lucas input that he was not in fact lying, which would tend to confirm that he was not intended to have been lying in the film.

 

Agreed. If its earlier than an event almost ten years ago, but not not to the ten-year mark then its in the "almost ten years ago range."

We also know from the EU that Owen and Obi-Wan are brothers and that Palpatine beheads Kit Fisto. The films are canon, not the EU.

Obi-Wan does lie to Lama Su by making Su believe Obi-Wan knows what Su is talking about during their initial conversation. Then Obi-Wan confesses that he was under the belief that Dyas was killed before the period known as "almost ten years ago." So to the audience it looks like that was just another lie to Su during their initial conversation because "if it's earlier than an event "almost ten years ago", but still less than ten years ago, it's still "almost ten years ago", just closer to the ten-year-mark." So it must have been ten years ago or more in his thinking if it happened before then.

Then Mace Windu follows up with "whoever placed that order" suggesting that they are not locked in on Dyas and are leaving the door open to new suspects. To which the film presents the Jedi and the audience with a new suspect.

Enter Dooku. After this conversation the clone template flies to the side of an ex-Jedi Master who has turned to the dark side who is also in the army building business. He also gives them potential motive for building the clone army by suggesting a Dark Lord would control that army via the Senate.

Lucas also gives the investigating Jedi (Obi-Wan) some name association clues such as Dooku mentioning the Jedi Archives during his speech in the arena and Obi-Wan staring a bust of Dooku when trying to figure out why he can't find Kamino in the Jedi Archives.

 

I think that some people spend more time looking for plot-holes than just simply enjoying the films. I don't know whether this is a generational thing (it certainly never happened back in the seventies and eighties with the OT) or whether it's fans of the OT looking for more ways to diss the PT or if it's simply the question of too-little-to-say-too-much-time-in-which-to-say-it. Whatever, it's not a past-time to which I subscribe.

Nice to see these so-called flaws being debunked by some of the fans here, though

 

I think Obi-Wan DOES know the timeline as he speaks of it. He knows when Sifo-Dyas was killed and he also knows when the clone army was ordered and, according to him, the former occured before the latter. That he says "I was under the impression" is due to the fact that he has just been told something impossible. A dead jedi ordered an army after his death. That would make a person confused. Both Mace and Yoda accept what he tells them and seem to agree with him "WHOEVER ordered that army..." says Mace, clearly indicating that he does not belive that Sifo-Dyas was involved

I think that part of the reason this plot does not fully work is that it was changed quite late and it was to have been featured in RotS but Lucas later changed his mind. During shooting there was no Sifo-Dyas, it was Sido-Dyas and the Jedi knew fully well that there was no such Jedi. They suspected someone in the senate had ordered it. Then it was changed in post-production and some of Obi-Wans scenes were re-shot and other scenes that dealt with it were removed or shortened.

Several things here, as far as I know, nowhere in AotC do the Jedi ever state that they will look into the origins of the clones. When Obi-Wan makes his report all Yoda and Mace talk about is how their use of the Force is weaker and wheter they should tell the senate about this. Later, when Mace leaves to Geonosis, Yoda says that he will look at the clones. Since he arrived not long after Mace it can't have been a very long look. At the end they say that they will keep a closer eye on the senate, not investigate the clones. When Yoda is told that a Jedi have tampered with the files all he says is that he will meditate on the matter and then it is never mentioned again.

Second, we the audience have more info than the Jedi, we know that Dooku is Tyrannus. So the audience can figure it out. Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas, posed as him, ordered the clone army and hired Jango and then he deleted the Kamino file. Fits all avaliable evidence. So even if we assume that an investigation DID happen, this would be the likely outcome. So for the audience to assume that Sifo-Dyas DID order the army requires us to IGNORE what the film is telling us. We have to assume, for no reason, that Obi-Wan is wrong. Also, since we know that Dooku hired Jango we have to wonder what was Dooku's connection to Sifo-Dyas, were they BOTH Siths? Did they have some plan to fight the Sith with the clones and Palpatine then took it from them? Or we can assume that it was Palpatine that posed as Sifo-Dyas and ordered the clones, which was the case when the film was shot.

As for things to investigate, the Jedi could show the Kamino people pictures of Sifo-Dyas to see if they know him, the could try and trace the money since it is unlikely that the Kamino people worked for ten years without any money. They could try and find out WHO deleted the Kamino file. In short they had plenty of leads.

In closing, the film AotC leaves this plot unresolved and then the issue is simply dropped. It would not take much screen time to mention an investigation and what the results were, 1-2 minutes would be enough.
As it i

 

One to two minutes is a lot of screen time.

 

Indeed. Vader has a grand total of something like four or five minutes in ANH; one to two is definitely more than your average scene is.

 

That's why I made it a point to mention that the EU in question benefited from direct Lucas input, which is not usually the case. From the PT it is sufficiently clear that Lucas' intentions regarding Owen no longer match the situation depicted in the ROTJ novel, if they ever did in the first place. By contrast, Lucas has to this date failed to contradict in any way the Sifo-Dyas material in LOE, either through direct statements or ROTS itself. Star Wars is not Star Trek. The EU is canon, just at a lower level than the films, meaning that the films take precedence if there is a contradiction. Since the Sifo-Dyas material in LOE was not overruled by ROTS or anything in TCW, it stands as a part of EU-inclusive canon.

No, because as you had supposedly agreed, before an event "almost ten years ago" can still be less than ten years ago.

That's fine. I'm not assuming they're locked in on Sifo-Dyas until Yoda's investigation between the films.

Dooku was a Jedi; Dooku knows they have archives. There's nothing more to it than that.

 

This is interesting, about Obi-wan being truthful when talking to the Kaminoans. Because I've always taken it to be pure improvisation. When Obi-wan arrives at Kamino, he knows nothing of the clone army or its commission by Sifo Dyas. When he is told that he is expected, Obi-wan is clearly bemused, which sets the perspective for the exchange that follows.

Personally, I'll continue to view that scene as though Obi-wan is winging it. It doesn't make sense (to me) to read it any other way.

 

I said it didn't have to be more than ten years ago and agreed that if it's earlier than "almost ten years ago" but still less than ten years ago, it's in the almost ten years ago range. However I don't believe "it" being the death of Dyas happened in that almost ten years ago range based on Obi-Wan saying he believe Dyas had been killed before the period known as almost ten years ago. So with that on top of saying it doesn't have to be more than ten years ago, that leaves the other vague period known as "ten years ago."

Vague dates.

There's "almost ten years ago"
There's "ten years ago"
There's "more than ten years ago"

Two of them fit under before "almost ten years ago"

Well if you're not assumming they're locked in on Dyas during AOTC, then the general audience at the very least wouldn't be either.

Doubts about Dyas plus a new suspect in Dooku should not equal the Jedi still being fine with using the clones in ROTS. Not doubts about Dyas, minus Dooku as a suspect, plus something that may or may not have happened off screen, equals the Jedi still being fine with using the clones in ROTS.

Not sure what you're saying here. That Dooku didn't erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives?

Or are you saying that there was absolutely no way name and face association could possibly lead an investigator to investigate a potential connection? An ex-Jedi turned to evil bringing up the Jedi Archives I believe has the potential to ring some bells in the lead investigators head since part of his investigation unveiled that someone had tampered with the Jedi Archives. That and the lead investigator potentially recalling the bust of the Dooku in the Jedi Archives that he stared long and hard at.

Putting aside my belief in the EU not being canon...


LOE says that Sidious tells Dooku that Dyas ordered the army and then suggests Dooku kills Dyas on orders from Sidious. So it doesn't actually confirm Dyas really ordered it unless you trust the word of Lord Sidious. Given what we know about him, he is hardly a credible source.

Yoda says the Kaminoans never saw Tyranus or Syfo-Dyas. Yoda also says that Madame Jocasta Nu found proof that Dooku had erased Kamino from the archives.

Then finally when Obi-Wan asks Yoda if Dyas ordered the clone army, Yoda responds with "contacted the Kaminoans he did." Basing that off

 

Since Arawn_Fenn, who has a better grasp of EU stuff than I do, is doing such a bang-up job addressing most of our esteemed opposition's points, I'll try and address certain other points.

But you're not a "general theater audience". You're a detail-obsessed fan (as am I!). No one in the general theater audience is complaining about Sifo-Dyas' lack of explanation. Only on repeat viewings do some fans come away with the notion that something is amiss. It takes a dedicated, detail-obsessed viewer to spot the ambiguity, the lack of clarification.

But that same dedicated fan -- the only one who would spot that missing information in the first place -- is the very person who will have access to the EU, and/or to other fans in the SW community who have read the EU. Illumination is but a post or two away, or a question voiced among like-minded folks. But then, when some critically-minded fans receive the requested explanation, they go on to complain that X is not made plain in the films, so it's a plot hole. As Nordom points out, the Jedi look incompetent as a result.

I, a fellow detail-obsessed fan, don't see things that way. To me, the general, simplistic answer/conclusion -- that the Jedi's investigations turned up nothing in 3 years -- can easily be gleaned from references here and there in the dialogue (see Arawn_Fenn's many posts on the subject). Logical connections can be drawn from scenes in II and III in order to explain the mystery. Granted, every minute aspect of the mystery is not explained in the films. HLAS and Nordom have been very cogent in outlining precisely what those lingering questions are. Complete clarification and exposition of the Sifo-Dyas mystery are available only in the background material.

My ultimate point is, IMHO, this ambiguity or lingering questions do not make AOTC (or rather ROTS, since that is the film that should reveal the answers, if at all) a flawed film -- anymore than the various unanswered queries about the OT make those works flawed. It's just part of how the STAR WARS Saga operates. Not everything is fully explicated in the films. For me it makes it fun to be a fan, and have these kinds of exchanges.