Are too many villains not getting their just desserts?

Let's go over it.

1. Aurra Sing
2. Ventress
3. Kir Kanos
4. Moff Tavira
5. Darth Talon
6. Boba Fett
7. Bossk

Aside from the peculiar quality that most of these characters are women, it strikes me that there's a lot of villains in Star Wars who never are brought to justice. It's honestly rather disappointing in some cases that attempts are made to rehabilitate some of these characters as well. Boba Fett is one that the argument can honestly be made since he's been a fan-favorite anti-villain (I refuse to call him an Anti-Hero) since the Empire Strikes Back.

But some cases are really rather annoying. Aurra Sing had half a dozen confrontations with our heroes and Ventress likewise did so. They are murderers and monsters both that were constantly defeated but nevertheless managed to scrape away to once more perform some monstrous evil down the road.

I list Bossk here as well because he murdered Corran Horn's father and Han Solo had a confrontation with him in Dark Tide. What bothered me about the "bar fight" was that there was literally no reason for Han Solo to leave that man alive because he was an inhumane monster.

Darth Talon may not deserve this honorable mention but she's been "almost killed" twice already and its not really a very good plot device in my opinion.

No Revelation spoilers in threads without prior mod approval.

 

My answer would be that they are not getting what should be coming to them. There is this odd insistence on the part of the authors to let not only major, but even rather small villains to get away. And then there is the rehabilitation of some of the major villains, like Asajj Ventress and Boba Fett, and how villains with decades of crimes under their belt are turned to heroes who can then give lectures to the main characters. Characters created to be villains from the beginning rarely die; a villain of this kind who is brought to face justice and is sentenced is even rarer creature. To many authors both in novels and comics, villains seem to be the true heroes. And the work of the real heroes is basically that of Sisyphos: The villains almost always survive, almost always get away and the big villains almost always return.

 

Meh. Osama and Zawahiri haven't been brought to justice. And it took 25 years before Imad Mughniyeh finally got his just desserts as well. Bad guys don't always get the fate they deserve. That's the way things are.

I am curious though, Charles. Where's #3?

 

Let's discuss Star Wars.

 

Eh, it's Star Wars.

We've got the Force at our back to help bring an end to villainy!

 

How is Kir Kanos a villain?

 

Being a fanatical servant of the Emperor on a mission to avenge the galaxy's version of Hitler?

Note, I'm aware Kir Kanos is a genuine anti-hero but I'm also putting him on the list for the simple fact that his story arc ended so damn abruptly. The character was on a mission of vengeance against the Emperor's killers and we never got THE ENDING which was to have him face down Luke Skywalker as was required.

But we know *WHY* that it isn't there I think. Call me crazy but the obvious answer is they don't want to have the ending that is almost required of Kir dying at Luke's hands.

It's like ending Hamlet at his being sent off by his Uncle.

 

Luke could have always defeated him, liberating one or two of his limbs from his body, and could have said no when Kir Kanos would then have begged Luke to kill him. But I doubt that fans of Kir Kanos would have been comfortable even that kind of ending that would have fit with canon and would have still let Kanos to live.

 

This discussion will not be necessary.

 

Okay, well positing that the Force is the "end all, be all" of bringing justice to villains, why then does it flow so magnanimously through individuals like Palpatine and his ilk?

I suppose I'd have to accept that the Force is inherently good and sides one way or the other. I don't.

That said, in an out-of-universe context, I would appreciate for the authors to end Aurra Sing and/or Ventress. They've been a flitnat for far too long. Sing, in particular.

 

Uh because villains almost never get their "just rewards" in reality? And as much as this is the Star Wars universe, it parallels very closely our world(as your own reference to Hitler would show).

And frankly I don't see why every villain should be "brought to justice". Many of them use the law so that they are not guilty of any crimes, and some heroes are guilty of more crimes than some of the villains! Han Solo for instance was a smuggler and a drug runner, factor that into our society today and he wouldn't look to favorible. But in reality many drug smugglers get away with it until they are caught, get to old to continue, or persue a new line of work. The latter of which Han Solo did.

Obviously some villains get it in the end, but I don't think every villain should be brought to justice just to make you feel like the universe is completely fair. I'm sorry to break this news to you, but life is rarely fair and villains(the big ones anyway) rarely see that end game. If anything I think more villains should get away with their tactics, many of the villains you list are B list at best and in an entire universe of beings...i'm sure there are lots of mass murders being committed.

 

It doesn't.

Silly boy, That's the DARK SIDE.

;-)

JK

True that.

Counterpoint, it doesn't parallel Earth HISTORY all that much. It parallels Earth MYTHOLOGY.

It's very much a storyline built in the vein of Odysseus, King Arthur, and World War II movies of the 1940s. The Prequels are significantly more noir and the like but they still end up with Count Dooku, Jango Fett, Darth Maul, and General Grevious all dead by the end of the movies. Lucas made it clear that loose ends are tied up rather handilly.

I guess it boils down to the fact that in real life, I don't shell out $2.99 a month to read about murderers getting away scott free. I shell out $2.99 a month to read about Zayne Carrick thwarting that nasty Covenant and bringing justice to the galaxy.

And Han Solo also ended up getting six months in a frozen block of ice, so you could say he did his time.

I certainly get your point but I also would rebuttal that Star Wars isn't meant to simulate reality, it's meant to be Entertainment. I could say that a movie about high school bullies kicking me in the face is very realistic but do I want to pay for it?

 

But isn't Talon supposed to do the wild thing with Cade? So she can't die yet.

 

I tend to disagree on Kir Kanos. Yes he's fanatical, yes he's highly indoctrinated but he's not a villain in the classical sense. And even if he died at the hands of Luke Skywalker, he would just have gotten what he had wished: a warrior's death. So I think he punishment would have been to live and being unable to avenge old Palpy.

 

I think my point is that we never saw Kir go after Luke.

I also think the story could well have ended on Kir breaking his oaths to Palpatine and going on to become a regular man, but the simple fact is his story ends on such a weird cliffhanger.

 

Being the fan of the Remnant that I am I always worried that Kir Kanos was going to take a notion to go after what remained of the Empire, out of some twisted loyalty to Palpatine. We really do need him to pop up somewhere and finish his tale.......

 

You may not want to, but someone certainly would. And your idea that entertainment can't simulate reality is faulty at best. There are human characters, they form governments, they have wars. All things that happen in our society. But if criminals get away with things in both worlds suddenly you draw the line? Right.

 

Sorry, you are of course right. Kir never went after Luke and his story was never completed. So we all can just asume or imagine what happened to him. But I think we both agree, that he doesn't count among the regular villains.

 

How awesome would be after everything Luke has been through...the Sith, the Vong, the Empire...that in the end, out of no where, come Kir Kanos to finish him.

That would be the most brilliant cross media expanded universe possibility ever!

Kir Kanos kills Luke...it would be raw...it would be passionate...and at the end, I think even Kir would be respectful of Luke in his moments before death...in contrast to his executions of Carnor Jax and Carivus.

Wow...I can totally see Kir giving Luke the swift jab to the abdomen with a vibroblade, and Luke passing in his arms.

Or, if you'd rather...they could probably kill each other...no doubt in either case, Kir doesn't survive the story...if he survives Luke, he doesn't survive Han or Leia or Jaina or Corran or Kyp or whoever comes after him.

Kir is more an "anti-villain" then an anti-hero. An anti-hero is more like Batman...a character who isn't totally law abiding but has strong moral character...Kir is the opposite...he bases his life dutifully on the law and allows it to shape his moral character. In a sense, you know he is wrong...but then you also pity him, and know that he would be a really good guy if he were to be on the right side...Kir is a product of the Empire, through and through...an example of a true man of the state.

Kir may even kill himself after killing Luke...after achieving his goal, he submits himself for judgment for all the crimes he had to commit to achieve that goal...that would be Kir.

I love Kir Kanos...he's a fantastic character...but Charles is right...in the end, he is a villain.

 

I liked Kir Kanos for many qualities. He's a noble, honorable, and courageous fellow. However, his story is actually good because it's an inversion of Darth Vader's in many respects. In the end, Kir Kanos rejects the chance to join Miss Sinn and set aside violence/death/the Empire to find redemption.

Kir Kanos' also has qualities that would make his story all the more interesting if explored. Like the simple fact he's a fanatical follower of the Obedience tenant of Bushido....yet Palpatine is utterly unworthy of such devotion, which sort of renders their relationship meaningless.

Also, how much is Kir Kanos' devotion worth since they retconned him/confirmed him as a clone? He was manufactured to be what he is.

You could have Luke somehow redeem him, maroon him, or maim him in a way that doesn't kill him. Still, it just leaves a sort of gapping hole that should be filled in by the Chronology or some source.

In another universe, Kir might have committed suicide after Crimson Empire II but we know he's still off elsewhere killing Remnant scientists and lackeys if the adventure hooks of WOTC are canon.

 

Let's wait and see what happens to Jacen. If he gets off with just a slap on the wrist....

 

I don't see Kir as being a clone with altered loyalties...he's not preprogrammed to serve, that would make the Royal guards weak...they have to have the ability to equate things on their own judgment...their fanatical loyalty isn't blindly natural, it's shockingly intentional and heartfelt...even gene manipulation couldn't get you that without the indoctrination training.

Personally, I've long assumed one reason the Remnant pretty much got left alone during NJO was Kir Kanos...he was out there somewhere...protecting his Emperor's last vestiges.

and I've always been a proponent of his inclusion in the Imperial Knight's creation story somehow...it would take his fierce belief to help mold the "Jedi" into the proper structure...otherwise the IKs might get sloppy or doubtful.

 

Jacen is a different case. He is a hero, who was made to fall and became a villain. It's the characters that are villains from the start who have it easy in EU. So Jacen can be killed, but the authors and editors don't have the guts to kill Boba Fett for example.

 

The more they run Boba Fett into the ground, character wise, the more I begin to wonder if ignominious death in the Sarlaac wasnt Lucas possessing foresight.

 

They don't have the guts to kill anyone except for secondary characters who's death's often feel forced.

I smell the odor of continuity reboot more foul everyday.

They are convinced the movie characters are their bread...they will abuse them until people reject them as old and tired, and bring them back as young and ALL NEW!

not right away...but I'll wager it's a scenario in the long term business model.