PT Arrest of Palpatine...Legal?

What are you talking about? Are you being serious right now? It's a bomb. They were all walking a big crowd together. How exactly would Palpatine have "planned" for the shrapnel to to hit one person and not the other? He knew exactly where each of them would be standing on the platform? The wind speed in that exact spot at the moment of the explosion? He had prior knowledge of the direction Padme would duck if something blew up next to her? He was perfectly assured no one would jostle her into the blast regardless?

You'll also have to help me with your logic on that second sentence. Why wouldn't police investigators control the investigation? This isn't any special area of expertise for the Jedi. It's hardly even relevant. What do they know about forensics or crime scene reconstruction? How do you even begin to defend the statement that a Jedi would be "required" instead of an actual detective?

A senior member of the Jedi who actually knows the people in his own Order, and could select someone well-suited to the task by temperament and skill? There's logically very little good reason that the Chancellor would pick her security detail.

 

Somebody forgot to tell that to Palpatine.

Yoda: Senator Amidala! Your tragedy on the landing platform, terrible. Seeing you alive brings warm feeling to my heart.
Padmè Amidala: Do you have any idea who's behind this attack?
Mace Windu: Our intelligence point to disgruntled spice miners on the moons of Naboo
Padmè Amidala: I think that Count Dooku is behind it.
Ki-Ali-Mundi: He is a political idealist, not a murderer.
Mace Windu: You know, milady, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone; it's not in his character.
Yoda: But for certain, Senator, in grave danger you are.
Chancellor Palpatine: Master Jedi, may I suggest that the Senator be placed under the protection of your graces?
Bail Organa: You really think that is a wise decision during these stressful times.
Padmè Amidala: Chancellor, if I may comment, I do not believe-
Chancellor Palpatine: The situation is that serious? Oh, but I do, Senator. I realize all too well that additional security might be disruptive for you, but... perhaps someone you're familiar with. An old friend, like... Master Kenobi.
Mace Windu: That's possible. He's just returned from a border dispute on Ansion.
Chancellor Palpatine: Do it for me, milady, please. The thought of losing you... is unbearable.
Mace Windu: I will have Obi-Wan report to you immediately.
Padmè Amidala: Thank you, Master Windu.

***

Treachery is the way of the Sith and if one thing is certain... its that Palpatine gets what he wants, done.

 

Is this an argument in favor of Mace Windu's attempt to arrest Palpatine without informing the Senate, or later his and Yoda's attempts to kill the Chancellor-turned-Emperor . . . without informing the Senate?

 

"I want that treaty signed."

 

I'm still not sold that he wanted the treaty signed as much as he wanted war. But yeah, u got me there.

None of the above. All I was saying is Palpatine doesn't follow any protocols, he got Kenobi & Skywalker attached to Padme's detail with very little resistance. If he wanted a Jedi to conduct an investigation instead of someone from the Coruscant police dept, he would make it happen. Iirc, in DP the Jedi investigated the massacre that Plagueis survived, so there is that.

 

There are quite a number of things you don't know and yet you keep presenting them as facts.
Why would a jedi be required to investigate a murder? You keep overlooking that in a whole galaxy, the amount of murders, not to mention al other crime, would be huge. There is no way that the Jedi are the only ones that deal with such things. So regular investigators must exist. And given that, such people are far better suited to this than Jedi who deal with negotiations, border disputes and the like.
So cops of Naboo security would be far more likely to deal with this. A jedi was assigned for protection and in that area they are quite good and Obi-Wan was picked because he knew Padme and she would accept him easier than some other jedi. In an investigation this is totally different.
Him knowing her would only interefere with his job, that is why cops don't tend to be assigned to cases where they are friends or related to the victim.
And if Jango shoots Zam, should he drag the body around and dump it in front of the temple?
A bit risky. Dumping it anywhere else and the jedi might never find it. On a whole planet I would think a few dead bodies turn up.

This have dragged on quite far now and very off-topic, best we drop it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

My point is not that this was impossible for Palpatine to achieve. Obviously, he did. Rather, it's that it doesn't make any sense to assume it was his original plan. It's needlessly complicated and difficult.

 

Sorry about all the bad grammar and spelling, I should not type this stuff when I am tired.

But back to the subject of the actual OP.
Mace was planning to arrest Palpatine and take him to court. I think a court might have some trouble with his evidence, which is only Anakins statement. If being a sith is a crime and any sith are subject to arrest, then Mace could have the law on his side.
Arresting a head of state, I would think might need something more than just the word of one Jedi. Unless the Jedi are granted some above the law powers. Which is possible since they are the guardians of peace and justice so some extra authority is likely.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

Exactly and it was also unnecessary. With Dooku running the seps, he can start the war anytime he wants. The army is getting ready and "finding" it is not difficult. In fact it is better if someone he controls "finds" the army as not to risk a Jedi saying things that the Kamino people are not meant to know.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Agreed. There would have to be more than a person's testimony to convict the Chancellor of the Republic. Palpatine's defense team would have a field-day with Skywalker's "Baseless accusations" in the absence of any real evidence.

 

*sighs*

The point of the assassination attempt is to serve two purposes.

1. It is to get Nute Gunray to sign the treaty making the Trade Federation an official member of the Confederacy, donating their time and resources to the cause.

2. It was used by Palpatine to start the Clone Wars, by having Obi-wan find the Clone Army. Palpatine needs to wait ten years for the first batch of clones to be ready, for Nute to get out of trouble for Naboo and to help create a political climate of fear and uncertainty that would allow him to take the next step in his rise to power. These things needed to be on his timetable and the ten years that he had, was enough to put these all into motion.

How do I know? Because Obi-wan shows up before they contact the Republic, just as Sifo-Dyas said that a Jedi would show up. It is about having the Jedi find the army and then using them to start the war. Palpatine set this up for a reason.

Why? Why couldn't he have planned it out, not to the most minute of details, but enough that it comes out as he wanted it to? He's a puppet master making everyone do what he wants them to do.

What?

Ah, this is true and he probably had another idea in mind, though it would still involve the toxic dart. Then Nute had to be a douchebag and want revenge on Padme, because she made him look like a fool by tricking him and forcing him to sign her treaty, ending his occupation and putting his ass in the hot seat. So, Palpatine decided to use the assassination attempts kick start his plan. Nute wound up handing him a plan that worked out better than he could have dreamed.

And why not by design? Considering that he says that on more than one occasion.

Personally, I don't care either way. Samuel Vimes is the one who cares about Jango being a pawn and refusing to buy that Jango would believe that the Jedi were smarter, over Dooku lying to him.

No, since it is precise. Broad strokes means, how they get from Kamino to Geonosis.

Really? Jango would wait for Zam to meet him at their rendezvous point, like we see them do in the film, and then he would give her the reward that she so richly deserves. He would fire the toxic dart at her, leave her body where it could be found or anonymously report it. Then take off for Kamino. This isn't rocket science.

Again, it is semantics. They're talking about Darth Sidious.

 

I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said that if the bomb worked or not, wasn't important to the plan. Let's break this down, since some people have trouble understanding.

1. In this scenario, Padme doesn't listen to Typho and uses the senator transport to Coruscant. She walks down the ramp, Zam uses the explosives and Padme is killed. Zam meets with Jango to receive her reward and Jango kills Zam, using the toxic dart. The Jedi find her and the dart and the investigation is on.

2. In this scenario, which is similar to what happened in the film, except Obi-wan and Anakin were too late in stopping Padme from being poisoned. They also fail to catch Zam in the nightclub as she bolts out the back exit and gets away. She meets with Jango to recieve the reward and instead, she's killed with the toxic dart. Obi-wan and Anakin are informed of her body's location and the investigation is on.

Now do you get it?

Jurisdiction. Often times, depending on the nature of the crime, the FBI takes control of the investigation over the local police.

You did watch "Attack Of The Clones"? Anakin says to Obi-wan that investigation of who was trying to kill Padme was implied in their mandate. And Obi-wan is sent out after Jango, by the Council, after the second attempt. The Jedi Order handled top level diplomatic crises, kidnappings and political assassinations. As to the rest, given the technological equipment used in the film, or referred to, the Jedi are quite capable of investigating a murder or an assassination.

He did make it happen. Not one time does Mace, "We'll decide who will do what and when", in AOTC. He only grows resentful of this when Palpatine wants to put someone on the Council, who doesn't belong. In AOTC, it is framed as mere suggestion and the Council is amicable. By ROTS, it becomes a political order and that's where they draw the line.

Again, watch the film. Obi-wan is sent to investigate who killed Zam, and thereby who hired Jango in the first place. Anakin says that investigation is in their mandate and not protection, which he cites as being a job for local security. As to Obi-wan, he is a Jedi and has been trained to not let his emotions get in the way. He wouldn't be emotionally compromised like Anakin would be.

No, just leave it in a public spot where it would be found. Someplace where there's a lot of people coming and going.

Any dead body that's not hidden, would be found in a matter of hours.

But important in getting his own way which is to have the army found, to launch a first strike and to have Emergency Powers.

Note that Obi-wan doesn't blurt out to Lama Su, that what he was told was a flat out lie as Sifo-Dyas did not have permission from the Council to do this. Nor did the Council have permission from the Senate. Obi-wan pretends that Sifo-Dyas did have permission for all of that and then, it is only when he is talking to Mace and Yoda, does he ask if that was true and is told no, it isn't. Anyway, Obi-wan is being controlled here.

 

Jedi have the Force. They can sense things others cannot.

 

Let's try this again: what is the "chance" or eventuality that the supposedly risk-loving ( *snicker* ) Sith are allegedly trying to micromanage away by their alleged micromanaging of the events in AOTC? You said it was the chance that the army would be discovered too soon, which doesn't make sense. Is there any answer which makes sense?

Because Obi-Wan shows up, it follows that Palpatine didn't want the Kaminoans to contact the Republic? No. You merely continue to assume as a given what you seek to prove, and logically speaking this gets you nothing.

You wouldn't tend to say Kamino was "past" the Rishi Maze unless you were starting from a point beyond the Rishi Maze.

No, he doesn't say that. In fact, he never mentions the dart at all, in any source that I'm aware of.

Your position relies on Jango being set up and not realizing it or reacting negatively, so saying you don't "care" is kind of pointless.

Thus, from one post to the next, we've gone from a plan where "the large broad strokes were there" to a plan where really every stroke is there, implying the claim about broad strokes was not especially serious in the first place.

No, a broad stroke is "the Republic gets the army".

Since this didn't even attempt to answer the question, here it is again: Why would a dead Zam even be connected to the assassination in this scenario?

 

We'll get to this in a second, but what? Why would Jango just randomly kill her? Did you notice how in the actual film, he didn't do so until she was wounded, in Jedi custody, and giving up information? To have timed it so well, he evidently had to be tracking their chase for some time. Which in turn means he could have killed her at various points and chose not to. That, along with common sense and good business heavily imply that she would have been allowed to live if she'd gotten away with her crime.

Or are you seriously saying Palpatine contracted a bounty hunter with the specific condition that he sub-contract to a second bounty hunter and that he kill said bounty hunter with one specific type of weapon at the end of some flexible number of attempts to complete the mission? Really? What?

We'll get into your logic about her dead body down below.

Did you watch the movie? Anakin does say this. He is also wrong. He is stretching definitions in a way that Obi-wan clearly does not agree with. Canonically, it's worth pointing out that the Senate Guard protects Senators and is responsible for major crimes related to them, not the Jedi.

And? Some dead body would be found somewhere on Coruscant. Why would this matter? You realize the Jedi had absolutely no idea about her connection to the assassination plot until they physically chased her from the scene of an attempt? If her dead body just showed up somewhere, why should the Jedi have investigated it at all? Why would you just assume it is significant to anything?

 

Does this mean that you agree that there are local cops/law enforcement on Coruscant?
That the jedi aren't the only people in the galaxy that deal with crime?

If you watched AotC then you would have known that Obi-Wan told Anakin that he was wrong and their only mandate was protection. He is later given an order to investigate but this order does not come from Palpatine but from Mace/Yoda. So Palpatine did not tell Obi-Wan to investigate anything.

As I said above, Anakin was wrong and Obi-Wan's order to investiagte comes from Mace/Yoda not Palpatine. Had Padme been killed, the jedi would not have been involved. So Palpatine would a) have a harder time getting them involved and b) an even harder time getting Obi-Wan on the case. In AotC he makes a friendly suggestion, this would be more like an order.

Again, it is a whole PLANET. The number of dead bodies on a whole planet would be quite high. So the odds that the Jedi hears about it are very slim.

That would depend on where he dumps it and again, we are dealing with a PLANET here.
And a random dead body showing up would be connected to the death of Padme HOW exactly?

Your whole plan rests on Jango being a pawn. If he isn't then your whole plan crumbles.
For your plan to work, Jango MUST have been set up and likewise he MUST have been too stupid to realize this. Both of which require him to be an idiot and the move shows that he is quite clever.

Which you keep keep saying but haven't been able to prove.

You are half-right, it is used by Palpatine to start the war but by making sure the army bill passes. Then the clone army can be "found" and once Dooku threatens or actually attacks, the war starts and Palpatine can get his extra powers.

[/QUOTE]

And note that Palpatine could not have known what Obi-Wan would or would not say.
And Obi-wan is being controlled? Where did you get THAT from? Is Palpatine using some kind of mindcontrol over him?
The ONLY way your scenario makes any sense is if Palpatine has read the script.

bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Legal or not it doesn't matter as there is only meant to be two Sith at anyone time, a Master and an Apprentice.

If Mace succeeded and killed Palpatine he would have taken his place as Darth Vaders Master...Mace was just to angry and untrusting to remain a Jedi.

(IMO of coarse)

 

Fortunately, the Jedi would actually search through Palpatine's office, his apartment and other areas and find the evidence. Such as his spare Lightsaber and his Sith robes, as well as check his private transmitter which connects directly to the current base of the Confederacy leadership.

You can snicker at the Sith taking chances, but do you not deny that Sidious placed himself in harm's way with the kidnapping. After all, the Invisible Hand was blown in two and nearly crashed into Coruscant, killing him and ruining his plan. That's a pretty big risk, but one he took to eliminate two people and turn another. Which only partially worked. As to the risk, the Sith didn't want the Jedi looking into Kamino, for any reason whatsoever. Hence it was erased shortly after the order was placed.

Because you're not paying attention. The plan was to get a Jedi to Kamino just as Sifo-Dyas said would happen. Meaning he clued Palpatine into this, or was told by Palpatine to make sure someone from the Temple came to check on the progress. This is very specific, which means it needed to happen and Palpatine used Nute's pettiness and Jango to bring a Jedi to Kamino, rather than have Kamino contact the Republic. If Palpatine didn't care, he wouldn't have signed off on the assassination attempts, nor have Jango use the dart and instead wait for them to call.

Who cares? Is this really that important?

What? I'm talking about Palpatine saying, "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design" and "Everything is proceeding as planned". In ROTJ, he tells that to Luke about the Death Star plans getting leaked out. In AOTC, he says it to Dooku after hearing his update.

I'm not the one making a big deal out of the idea that Jango not reacting negatively. Samuel Vimes is. All I'm saying is that a negative reaction isn't indicated in the film, thus it is a non issue with him. Much less Boba years later.

I never said that Palpatine planned everything down to the last detail. You and the others keep saying that. The main strokes have always been that the assassination attempt is performed, the assassin is eliminated with the toxic dart, Obi-wan is sent to find out who killed Zam, he goes to Kamino and reports back to the Temple, then he and Jango go to Geonosis, so that he could inform the Council and the Loyalists about the Confederacy. Specific stuff like Obi-wan fighting Jango and the failure of the assassination attempts are a non issue here.

The Jedi would sense that there was something more to this than a random killing. The Council would want her investigated and would find out that she was an assassin for hire and from there, Obi-wan would trace the toxic dart. As Qui-gon said, "Nothing happens by chance" and as Obi-wan himself would say, "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck".

The latter. Palpatine didn't care that Padme lived or died. If he wanted her dead, he would have sent Dooku to do it at any point in time. Or done the deed himself. Nute told Dooku that the Federation would not join the Confederacy, unless he had Padme killed. Dooku told Palpatine, who in turned decided to use this to his advantage. He needs the Clone Army found and needs a Jedi to go to Kamino, without being told to do so. So he tells Dooku to take care of it, but to use the toxic dart from Kamino to bring a Jedi there. Dooku gives the job to Jango, who in turn hires Zam to do the job. Whether or not the assassination succeeded is moot, because it wasn't that important to Palpatine's plan. Just that the Jedi go to Kamino and that Padme isn't around to prevent him from achieving his real goal, which is Emergency Powers.

As to killing Zam, she was expendable. There's no need for her beyond doing the job and then eliminating her. If she had succeeded either time, she would have been killed with the toxic dart. Remember, the dart is specific compared to Jango's other weapons. There is a reason it was used above all others. This is that reason.

Obi-wan says that they will not exceed their orders. Meaning he was content with just doing a protection job until the Council tells them otherwise, which happens the next morning when Obi-wan is assigned to find Jango.

OBI-WAN: "We will do exactly as the Council has instructed, and you will learn your place, young one."


YODA: "Track down this bounty hunter, you must, Obi-wan."

MACE WINDU: "Most importantly, find out who he's working for."

Ergo, it is the job of the Jedi to conduct investigations. And as Lucas himself said in 1981, to Kasdan and Marquand, the Jedi were like the police.

The Jedi have the Force. Obi-wan would sense that her death was no mere coincidence. Just as Qui-gon didn't believe it was happenstance that he crossed paths with the Skywalkers. Just as Qui-gon sensed that there was more to the invasion than just mere greed, that something else was behind it.

I never said otherwise. But the Jedi are at the top of the food chain. That's why Palpatine put them on the case and why the Council sent Obi-wan out to find Jango, instead of letting security handle it.

Ah, but who put the Jedi on the job in the first place? Palpatine. He was the one who suggested that a Jedi be used to protect Padme. The Council did not dispute this and thus it was all his doing. He didn't have to say, "Obi-wan, I want you to find this bounty hunter". He just manipulated Mace into assigning a Jedi to do one job, knowing it would lead him to doing a different one.

Why would he have a harder time? He would turn to the Jedi and ask them to seek out the assassin and bring them to justice, which the Council would do. Just the same way that the previous Chancellor asked the Council to send to Jedi to Naboo to put an end to the blockade by the Federation.

Which is why it would be left in a place where it would catch the attention of the Jedi, like say, in front of the Senate. A dead body in front of the Capitol building would get a rousing attention from the police, the FBI and the Secret Service in the real world. Same here.

1. Jango was a pawn.

2. He doesn't have to be an idiot to think that the Jedi were smarter than Dooku took them for.

I have, because that is what happens in the film. That was his plan. That's why he's quite pleased with things at the end of AOTC.

The military creation act was just a delaying tactic. The real goal was always the Emergency Powers Act. The army cannot be found before then, because according to what the film shows, the Jedi didn't know about it. And the Senate didn't know about it. There's no way that it can be found afterwards without rousing suspicion from the Jedi that he had any involvement in it. The Jedi must believe that Sifo-Dyas did this on his own volition and not with someone's outside influence. Ergo, he uses Nute Gunray's demands in order to manipulate the Jedi into finding the Clone Army without suspecting him of having anything to do with it.

Please, Obi-wan is a Jedi Knight, not a five year old child. Palpatine knew full well that he would go along with Lama Su and Taun We, in order to find out more about what was going on.

He controlled the Jedi, the Senate and the Confederacy into do what he wanted. The mind trick isn't necessary. Playing with people's emotions, using their methodology and following the political structure is how he became Emperor and took out everyone that would oppose him. He's a puppet master. Has been for years. All that was required is the right push and they would do what he wanted them to do. He gained Emergency Powers by creating a climate of fear and the threat of war. He got the Jedi to find the army, but using their relentlessness and their own technology against them. He got Nute to join him while Padme yet lived, by having the Republic attack with an army and with an offer that he couldn't refuse.

 

And yet, PalpSidious did foresee that Padme will remove Valorum from office so that he will take his place as supreme chancellor. Also, I don't get how PalpSidious didn't sense Luke going to Endor and yet, he'd already foreseen him surrendering to Vadakin so that he'll be taken to the Emperor himself? Even if some of his predictions weren't accurate, PalpSidious was still on top but it is only when Luke refuses to join the Sith while Vadakin bodyslams him into the reactor core did things go downhill for PalpSidious.

If there wasn't any foresight involved, then the Sith wouldn't have clouded the Jedi's vision with the dark side. They wouldn't want the Jedi to sense that someone is pretending to be one of them to trick the kaminoans into creating clone armies of Jango Fett. We've seen the Jedi do this in TPM when Padme revealed herself as Queen Amidala and Qui-Gon gave that wierd look to Obi-wan as if to say he knew from the start that she was the queen since their stay on Tatooine. The Sith would have to see into the future to make sure that the Jedi don't find the clone army too soon before they're ready to make their clone wars.

If deleting the Kamino file was the Sith's idea of covering their tracks, then it didn't work because they should've known that the Jedi will eventually notice that their archives have been tampered with. Add with the fact that Obi-wan did trace the origin of Jango's dart, they will still find Kamino and discover a clone army being created. The Sith would have to see into the future to know if the Jedi figure out if whether or not Kamino existed.

But PalpSidious would know that Padme likes to switch places with her decoys so he had to have foreseen the first attack failing.

I doubt that Jango told Dooku about Obi-wan following him to Geonosis since a) he didn't know that he's being tracked and b) he assumed that Obi-wan was killed in space. Plus, it's no coincidence that Obi-wan got ambushed by droidekas while in the middle of transmitting his hologram message to the Jedi Council about the separatists meeting on Geonosis. That indicated that Dooku somehow knew that Obi-wan was on the planet since he sent his geonosian guards to find him and Dooku lying to Obi-wan about Jango's wherebouts had EVERYTHING to do with seeing the future because he already knew that Obi-wan followed Jango to Geonosis even before they arrived.

But the Sith DO need the Jedi to find Kamino, the clone army, and the separatists on Geonosis so that they could have legal justification to start the Clone Wars. It didn't mattered who started the war as long as it has happened. Also, if "always in motion is the future" like Yoda suggests, then he's obviously not aware that all of Anakin's visions of his loved ones dying did end up coming true.

First off, PalpSidious is well aware that Vadakin is trying to betray him behind his back which is why he forced him and Luke to have their rematch in ROTJ. Just because PalpSidious didn't foresee certain things, it doesn't mean that his plans were doomed to fail. The only time where his plans do fail is at the very end of ROTJ when he not only failed to turn Luke, but he also failed to save himself from Vadakin. Second, you don't have to mention somebody's name to be talking about them. In the Harry Potter books (and films), whenever people want to talk about Voldemort, they always refer to him as "You know who" or "He who must not be named" but despite those nicknames, they all knew exactly who they were talking about. If Yoda is answering Obi-wan's question on if he believed what Count Dooku said about Sidious controlling the senate, then you know damn well that Yoda is talking about Sidious.

 

How is this a non-issue? What if Obi-wan hadn't blocked all the blaster shots and had been killed? What if the rocket had blown him up? Was Jango intentionally missing? What if Obi-wan had beaten and arrested Jango, and Genosis never came up at all? What if Obi-wan hadn't grabbed on at the last minute and had ended up falling off the side of the platform to his death in a giant, storming ocean hundreds of feet below? How can a fight be "irrelevant" if only one specific outcome of the fight makes your plan work? Are you thinking about this at all?

Alright, let's review. The Jedi sensed their was something amiss with the Clone Wars from the very beginning. They sensed manipulation by a Sith Lord starting at the time of the Battle of Genosis, and began investigating then. They didn't figure it out for a full three years. Putting aside the question of how there are any unsolved crimes at all if the Force just magically reveals all the answers, how is this plan of yours supposed to work? What if it took them 20 years to piece together that Zam Wesell was the assassin that tried to kill Padme?

So you are now arguing that Chancellor Palpatine knew that Obi-wan would ask Dexter Jettster who he also knew would know exactly where the dart was from? Because otherwise, the Jedi didn't have any leads at all on what the thing was. You are literally basing a whole plot for a galactic war on knowing the detailed personal history of all the friends and acquaintances of one random guy? I mean, what if Obi-wan had decided to ask someone else first? What if he'd decided to take a week, fly to Tatooine, and ask Watto, and then from there to confer with Boss Nass about it? What if Dexter had a heart attack so he wasn't able to talk to Obi-wan for several weeks because he was in the hospital? Do you grasp how absurd this even is?

All you've done is proven the Jedi participated in one investigation. That's not the same thing as saying they regularly do. Available canon flatly contradicts you on that. It thus makes for absurd "planning" on Palpatine's part.

And how did he know the Jedi would actually use the clones for anything? Even as it stands, the only reason they did so is because they needed a bigger force to rescue Obi-wan. Please recall that the only reason they knew of anything going on in Coruscant is because Anakin happened (against orders) to be within 1 parsec of Genosis, so he could pick up a short range transmission and send it on to Coruscant. Your version of events therefore requires that Palpatine knew Anakin would have a bad dream about Shmi, that he knew Anakin would respond to this bad dream by flying immediately to Tatooine, and that he knew Obi-wan would not send the message until Anakin was in place to receive it.

. . .Really? Palpatine "planned" all of this stuff? But you don't claim to say he was micro-managing. Your interpretation is nothing but micro-managing.

 

No, Palpatine did not forsee Padme removing Valorum. His ORIGINAL plan was that Padme be taken by the TF and sign some treaty. That failed and she escaped, so he sent out Maul to get her. That failed too and she got to Coruscant. At that point Palpatine had to change his plan so he began to MANIPULATE her to remove Valorum. Saying things like "He is weak, he has no powers." etc.
So no foresight was involved, just manipulation.
So if Palpatine foresaw anything and that was the basis of his original plan, then he foresaw wrong.
So we have enough instances of Palpatine being unable to foresee something or getting it wrong, thus he is not 100% correct all the time.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Why is foresight needed to be able to cloud the Jedi's ablity to see the future? The jedi didn't sense the sith for some 1000 years, they didn't foresee the TF attacking Naboo nor did they sense it when it happened. In short, the Jedi's ability to see the future or even the present isn't very strong. Dooku said that the Dark Side has clouded the Jedi's ability, if this due to the Sith directly doing something or just because the dark side growing stronger we don't know.
As for Qui-Gon, he had been around the queen and Padme several times and was probably able to spot the decoy and he also noticed that "Padme" acted with a great deal of authority despite her position. I could figure out that Padme and the queen where the same person. It wasn't really hard.

Since the Kamino file has been gone for almost ten years and no one in the jedi noticed, I'd say that they need not worry about that. The jedi librarian was certain that nothing could be missing from their files and even Obi-Wan could not see the obvious, that some one had deleted the file.

You are using circular logic here. You assume that since A happens the Sith planned for A to happen and because A did happen then that proves the Sith planned for it. You assume your conclusions.
Instead, the Sith did not plan or foresee the jedi finding Kamino at all. That is why the file was removed. That Obi-Wan able able to find it was due to a very lucky accident, that he knew Dex and Dex could identify the dart. This is something the sith could not have known about and the ability to foresee such things with such EXACT detail is not supported by the films. Thus it is a no-limits fallacy.

Again wrong. Palpatien KNOWS that Padme has used decoys before so he could think that she would do so again. So no foresight needed here, just prior knowledge.
And again, Padme dead serves Palpatine's interests in that he can get the army bill through the senate and get the TF onboard with the seps. So he has no reason NOT to want her dead.

Um.. Jango DID know he was being tracked, he saw Obi-Wans ship outside Geonosis.
He might think that Obi-Wan is dead but he still has lots to report to Dooku. He has to report on the attempt on Padme and what happened there. He would also report on the fact that a jedi came to Kamino and know the jedi knows about the clone army. So he would also tell Dooku that a jedi follwed him to Geonosis but that he blew him up. Dooku knows about the failed attempt, given what he says to Nute. So Jango has obviously talked to him and it makes no sense that Jango would not mention that a Jedi came to Kamino and folled him here.

Also, you argue against yourself. First you say that Jango didn't tell Dooku that Obi-Wan follwed him to Geonosis but then you say that Dooku somehow knew that Obi-Wan there. If Jango did tell Dooku what happened, and why wouldn't he? Dooku could suspect that Obi-Wan might still be alive and place his guards on alert. So that is the most likely reason why Obi-Wan got caught. Or a random patrol just spotted him. Or the sensors on Geonosis spotted his ship as it landed.

[/QUOTE]


You and others keep making this claim but it is still wrong. The Sith have no need at all for any of this.
Dooku has created the seps and is making them act more and more threatening. He is also building up a huge droid army and he intends to attack the republic. Palpatine meanwhile, knows about the clone army (obviously) and is pushing for an army bill to pass the senate. Once it does so, the clone army can be "found" in any number of ways. Then all Dooku needs to do it either to attack the republic or threaten to attack the republic. If he does either, that is enough justification for the republic to go to war. The jedi don't need to find Kamino or Geonosis or any of this. They did, through a number of very unlikely events that no one could have known about or predicted.
The sith were simply lucky enough and fast enough on their feet to adapt to the situation.
About Yoda, things you see through the Force MIGHT come true but it is not CERTAIN that they do.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

No you still fail to realize that your entire argument relies on circular logic and assuming your conclusion. Your argument is essentailly this; The Sith planned for X to happen and because X happened then this proves that the sith planned for X to happen. QED.
As I and others have pointed out to you again and again, this reasoning is flawed.

Instead, Palpatine's plan was much simpler and not so full of micro-managing and needless risks.
Pass the bill, the army is found, Dooku attacks, war starts. Simple.

You did "Third, the Jedi would investigate because they're essentially the galactic police officers. "
Which implies that there are no one else that does these things.

Unless Mace thought that Anakin was not experienced enough to be alone with Padme, or if Obi-Wan had objected harder to letting Anakin go alone. If both Obi-Wan and Anakin stay with Padme, then Mace has to put someone esle on the job. If he even does so.

Also, Palpatine could not have know all that happened, say Padme got killed by the bugs and Zam gets away. Now they have no leads and Anakin and Obi-Wan would be in some disgrace and Anakin would be rather upset. In short, Palpatine could not have planned on all that happened after he put Obi-Wan with Padme. Any number of things could have happened.

The latter is negotiating and settling disputes, something we know the jedi normally do. The former is a murder investigation, something we don't know that the jedi normally do.

And? A dead body with a dart in it? Why would they think it has anything to do with Padme's death?
It could be a political statement of some sort. If they do think it has to with Padme's death then the placement of the body is highly suspicious. That someone would want to silence an assasin is reasonable, but that they would dumpt the body in front of the senate? Any cop worth his or her salt would smell a set up.

1. Circluar logic and assuming your conclusions, still no proof of anything

2. Yes he does because he gets an order to use a VERY specific weapon for no reason at all.
He get assured that it can't possibly be traced but SUPRISE, it is. Even a idiot would think something is up and a clever bounty hunter most certainly would. So the fact that he didn't shows that he did not get any order to use the dart and that it could not be traced.

Also, let me illustrate further why your theory fails. If we assume that Jango has got an order to kill Zam with the dart and make sure the jedi find the body. In the film, Zam is killed just when she is about to say Jango's name, for this to be possible, Jango must have been following her for some time. Most likely since the chase started. So given all this, WHEN would have been a good opportunity to shoot Zam and make sure the jedi find the body? Right at the moment when the droid is returning to Zam, with Obi-Wan hanging from it. So shoot her right then and the Jedi will find the body and connect her with the attempt on Padme. But he doesn't, despite this ebing an ideal moment. So this is clear proof that he hadn't gotten any such orders. Instead he only shot Zam to prevent her from talking, nothing more. Pure chance made him use the dart and pure chance made it possible for Obi-Wan to track it.

No this is still circluar logic and assuming your conclusions. Try again.

You still have presented zero proof that the army bill wasn't meant to pass.
The army can be found with ease. Once the army bill has been passed and Palpatine is looking at the various resources the republic has to make one. Then a "call" from Kamino can be made and the army is found. The jedi has already reasons to suspect foul play with the army, their files have been tampered with, an army has been ordered without their knowledge or the senate's. These and other fishy things are there whether the Jedi find the army or not.

You did not answer my question. How could Palpatine know that Obi-Wan would not say something like "I don't undertstand, the senate has not approved the ordering of an army and Sifo-Dyas never got any such ok from us." Nor could he know that when Obi-Wan reported of this, that the jedi council would send more people to ask questions. When faced with something new and unexpected, people tend to get suprised and ask questions.
So again Palpatine takes stupid and needless risks.

[/QUOTE]

There is a big difference between control and manipulate. Palpatine maniplulated people and events.
He did not have the kind of absolute control that you calim he has. Padme escaped Naboo and Maul, Maul died, Anakin got injured and thus much weaker. All things he did not plan or controlled.
He tried to control the jedi into NOT finding Kamino. If he knows the Jedi then he would know that they rely on what is in their files and archives. He would also know that they have a rather rigid thinking and are very dogmatic. Ex. the Jedi librarian was adamant that if something is not in their files, then itdoesn't exist. Even Obi-Wan had a great deal of difficulty to even consider the possibility that their files have been tampered with. So the "normal" jedi procedure would be, check their own files and archives, if it isn't there then dead end, case closed. Obi-Wan was just "lucky" enough that he knew Dex and that Dex could identify the dart. Had Dex been out of town or ill, then Obi-Wan would have gotten nowhere.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The Sith didn't manipulate all the events in AOTC, it doesn't make sense.

 

Are you saying Palpatine didn't KNOW in advance that Obi-wan was going to respond to an assassination attempt by jumping out of a window thousands of feet off the ground?!!

 

Palpatine planted them there because he knew what to expect. He knew Kenobi would behave recklessly to protect his old friend and that Skywalker would react emotionally to the situation. Kenobi & Skywalker jumping out of windows / speeders were not actions that surprised Palpatine, he's heard about the nest of Gundarks and all their other "crazy" adventures.

The only thing that would have surprised Palpatine is if those two failed to find Kamino.

 

I think you missed the point there. You're saying that the Sith are into risk while simultaneously portraying them as insecure risk-averse micromanagers.

Let's try this again. You claimed that the Sith were micromanaging the events taking place during AOTC in order to reduce the "chance" of something happening. What is that something? You remain unable to answer this question, because there is no answer. Once again, your only answer is that the Sith didn't want the Jedi to find Kamino, which makes no sense whatsoever as an answer. The Sith are micromanaging an alleged plan to have Jango lead the Jedi to Kamino because of the "risk" that the Jedi will find Kamino? So the eventuality which the micromanaging is supposedly designed to avoid is the same thing as the objective of the plan?

How about an answer that makes sense? Hint: don't just say "the risk is that the Jedi will find Kamino" again. That is an answer to a different question: "What was Dooku trying to avoid by deleting Kamino from the archives?"

Once again, all you're doing here is attempting to use your assumption as proof of itself. Logically speaking this amounts to nothing more than simply restating the assumption ad nauseam. It does not support the assumption. Assuming what you seek to prove is a fundamental error in logic.

"I care." - Luke Skywalker

Yeah, nothing in there about a saberdart. Is Palpatine's design about "large broad strokes" or is it about saberdarts?

Again, saying you're not making a big deal out of it means nothing. Your position assumes that he was set up and didn't react negatively because he wasn't smart enough to know that he was being set up. That's a problem with your position. It can be considered a big deal even if you don't see it as a big deal due to confirmation bias.

And that's not what anyone could reasonably call a "large broad stroke". It's extreme micromanaging.

And why would a dead body turning up on Coruscant even be brought to the attention of the Jedi in the first place, as opposed to local law enforcement? Based on the population of Coruscant alone, dead bodies must be turning up all the time. ( There's also a questionable assumption that Zam's true identity must have been on file somewhere as an "assassin-for-hire", but given Zam's shape-shifting ability I'd say this is far from certain. Even if Zam had not been a shape-shifter, there is no guarantee that he/she/it would have had any previous record on file at all. )