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Lit At what point did Jacen change the future?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. JediKnight75

    JediKnight75 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2011
    If I were to find a point of divergence, I'd say it was the Clone Wars. The extra events in Legends, caused the galaxy to be in a different place at the end of the war. As a result, events after the end of ROTS played out differently.
     
  2. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    If Centerpoint Station exists or not then it would have to be before 100,000 BBY.
    Didn't someone say that the Dark Ending for KOTOR 2 could be the divergent point?
     
  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    well, the Jedi didn't originate on Ahch-to in Legends, so the divergent point would have to be before then, perhaps involving the Tho Yor
     
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  4. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 13, 2010
    Hm. In the new timeline the Celestials/Mortisites actually killed Abeloth rather than simply imprisoning her, maybe?
     
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  5. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That's it for me for the time being.
     
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  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Canon/Legends differences go back further than the clone wars-for example in canon the Sith had a temple in Coruscant. There was no such temple in legends.

    This implies to me that their either isn't a divergence and we have to accept there just different universes or if there is one it goes much further back.

    There is a similar problem in Trek either the novelverse and STO.
     
  7. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    In Betrayal I’m fairly sure he could read a tassel from having been to Ziost. I’d check, but my father-in-law has had my copy for the last seven months...

    ... as to Ania, I expect, knowing her personality, she took the surname Solo when she was revealed to not be Force-sensitive. She appears to be younger than Cade, to me, anyway. I find it unlikely that she was Cade’s sister but she did call Marasiah her cousin... pass. It’s one of those great mysteries no doubt. If we ever get resolution I’d like to see it.

    I’d expect a divergence point (if there was one in history) to surround either Snoke or Jakku’s import a millennium before the Prequels.

    As to the Coruscant point - it was a five thousand year old Temple in the depths. It could have been quite simple for a surviving group of Sith, who escaped the Great Hyperspace War, to build something there. Either a group of survivors of the Battle of Coruscant, or some hiding there, going to lengths to force the Jedi to build a Temple on Coruscant to negate the dark sides presence and thus being bound to the fate of the Republic.


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  8. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Stover (in 2002's The New Jedi Order: Traitor) I believe was the one that introduced the concept of a Dark Side well of power being buried under a Jedi Temple from what I read.
     
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  9. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Bingo. This was construed as a wellspring still influenced by Nyax by some when Jacen fell into it, but it could just as easily be the Temple exerting influence.


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  10. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    I just developed a weird thought: what if the Jacen we see in Traitor and onwards wasn't the real one?

    What if he is a perfect clone created by the Yuuzhan Vong and Vergere helped?
     
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  11. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I think that’s been the hopes of a lot of Jacen fans since Betrayal...


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  12. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    The hope was he was a clone created at the facility from Crosscurrent.
     
  13. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Kidnapped and replaced by the One Sith? That’d be a decent reveal. Connection between Jaden and Jacen? :p


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  14. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    When I re-read Legacy II last year, I actually think that it was kept very ambiguous as to whether Ania is Force-sensitive or not. She definitely does not use the Force at any point in the comic and no one comments on it, but she also never makes any indication she does not have the ability. Which I took as the authors keeping their cards close to their chest for a potential reveal down the line (or at least to keep speculation going among readers) had the comic not ended so soon.

    As to her parentage, she's obviously descended from the real Jacen, unlike Allana who's the daughter of Jaacen.

    Yes - in KOTOR II, Malachor is only destroyed in the light side ending. So it existing still in the new canon is proof that the Disney continuity is the dark side ending!

    Jokes aside, I always liked this theory as a hypothetical.

    The TLJ Visual Dictionary does say that Ahch-To was known by several other names throughout the ages, which I took to be a nod towards the fact that it could be Tython. Though I know the re-release of Complete Locations lists Tython as a possibility for the Jedi homeworld along with Ahch-To (and Jedha, which was apparently conceptually developed as the potential homeworld of the Jedi by the Rogue One team unaware it would be touched upon by TFA).

    I really wish Complete Locations had just left the Tython bit out, I would have been very happy with Tython either as one of Ahch-To's alternate names, or just some statement to the effect of "Tython doesn't exist in the new canon, Ahch-To is its equivalent."

    Notably one of the TFA concept art pieces for Ahch-To did show giant levitating bits on the island, which made me think of Tython.
     
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  15. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Ahch-to and Tython are in different parts of the galaxy, though, correct?
     
  16. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Unknown Regions and Deep Core respectively, yes.

    As to Malachor - that is a somewhat shallow retcon as Malachor has three habitable worlds - II, III and V, as minimum. Malachor in Rebels could be IV for all we know.


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  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Coruscant was a bustling capital of the Republic even at that time-I find nary impossible to believe any surviving group of Sith could have established a temple without being noticed.

    As for Jacen being in the clone-while it would make a lot of Jacen fans very happy it would ruin what LOTF and FOTJ said happened to the character for better or worse. So my opinion on that is somewhat mixed.

    I suppose a more ancient POD is possible-perhaps the celestials lasted longer, perhaps Abeloth was killed and not imprisoned perhaps the Rakatan Infinite Empire never arose.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  18. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Is it reasonable to assume that the galaxy as established in Legends is its actual state unless stated otherwise?

    id est, Korriban/Morriband exist, Ziost exists, Tython and Ossus exist, Nar Shaddaa exists, et al.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I think that's a fair assumption - general, trivia-related things like names and locations of worlds, tend not to change.
     
  20. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I think I remember that now. Hmm.
     
  21. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I’ve been thinking more about this - by the time Jacen met Lumiya, the Dark Man went from a solid fixed point that it would be Krayt, and to a possibility that it would not exist. So even by then Jacen had already made steps towards changing what had been destined to occur.

    Hmmm.


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  22. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    So what Jacen had done in DNT was moving towards potentially stopping the Dark Man from ever rising at all, but then meeting Lumiya made things swing the other direction? [face_thinking]
     
  23. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Though. On second thought. Have we seen anything about the history of the Mando's? The Taung and Zhell fought on Coruscant 100,000 years earlier in the EU and the Taung became the Mandoes, What about the NEU?
     
  24. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    You know, back in the day I thought it'd be fittingly bonkers if TCW were a diverging timeline created by Anakin, Ghost Hayden Anakin, being allowed to return back to a point in time before he became Vader to make things right - this time accepting the padawan he didn't want and didn't teach the first time around. In the diverting timeline, Ahsoka's presence makes a different man out of Anakin, and some events and battles might be completely different from the original CW timeline. This might have even led to a happy end for Anakin! Okay, it obviously didn't... but having an Anakin-trained Ahsoka around for the Rebellion's early days, and her having noticeable impact on Kanan's rebel crew, could create knock-on effects for the Rebellion era. Just sayin'...
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  25. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I find this whole "changing the future releases Abeloth" to be nothing but Killik nonsense.

    Abeloth was marooned on her desolate planet that was trapped within a tight-knit cluster of stars. This cluster was passively maintained from a distance by Centerpoint Station. When the Jedi destroyed Centerpoint, the smaller Sinkhole Station was left to maintain Abeloth's prison alone. The destruction of Centerpoint weakens Abeloth's prison that she's able to reach out to Sinkhole Station through her Mind Walker vassals and start to destroy the station.

    When Luke touches the Codex, he touches both the Lost Tribe and Abeloth. The latter is able to touch the Lost Tribe as well, and with them, Ship, whom Abeloth summons to her world.

    We only have Thuruht's word that changing the future is what releases Abeloth and we've seen before that the Killik's definition of truth is extremely fluid. Rather than trust the word of a hive-minded alien species, let's look at exactly how Abeloth was released and who caused it.

    We don't know when Abeloth was last released prior to 44 ABY, but Centerpoint was built in 100,000 BBY. The only time we saw Abeloth escape was when the star cluster fell apart. After Centerpoint was destroyed.This is very key.

    The Destruction of Centerpoint Station was the direct cause of the deterioration of the star cluster that was Abeloth's prison. The organization that destroyed Centerpoint was the Jedi Order itself. At Luke Skywalker's personal direction.

    Luke blaming Jacen for freeing Abeloth is a complete misdirection of fault. The Jedi, under Luke's leadership destroyed Centerpoint. That's what freed Abeloth.

    To quote Caedus:

    “You Jedi never tire of blaming the Dark Lord for your own failings, do you?”
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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