Authors playing favorites.

Mara's "Death Stars"

 

I dispute heavily that she's a Master- and I don't care what any book says. She has barely had any training from Luke or anyone else for that matter. Additionally, Mara's devotion to the Jedi *as* a Jedi is also pretty unconvincing. She barely even acknowledges that she is on. Anderson ignored her, Zahn ignored her training, not that he would know anything about it in the first place, so tell me, where did Mara suddenly come up the years of training and experience that she is now suddenly a Jedi Master? In fact, from JAT and HoT, she and Luke almost never saw each other, so where did she get all that knowledge? If anyone is more deserving the Master title it's Corran Horn and Tionne Solusar, yet they're just Knights. If that isn't favoritism, I don't know what is.

I have never understood why Corran Horn is not a Jedi master, other than perhaps he has not chosen to assume that title. Or perhaps he has not focused on his jedi skills enough since he still was with rogue squadron for so long. I would think things will change soon for him. When it comes to Mara though I can understand how she was deemed a Jedi Master. This is a woman who is strong in the force, even if there are those who dispute it in here, look at a woman who was able to fight off a virus which killed every other person it infected. She was able to hear the emperor from anywhere in the universe and yes his power helped the most, but hers had to be there too. Can you really see ole palpy taking a weak woman as his hand? She learned what she had too while at Luke's academy. She knew more than she let on to when anyone asked how much jedi training she had been given, by the emperor. She learned a lot more as she and Luke fought side by side in the HoT series. Being able to know Luke like no other to see his inner being opened up his vast knowledge of the force to her also. Then after that Mara had around 6 years until Vector Prime to hone those skills to become a jedi master. Sounds like a decent amount of time and training to attain the rank of jedi master. We need not see it to know it has happened. We only recieved brief moments of Luke's training, through movies and stories and yet he in 4 years attained the rank of knight and another 6 or so years after that the rank of master. If you go by when Mara and Luke first met she had 16 years to attain the rank of master.

Alan Dean Foster? Kier please tell me you like his none Star Wars books and not the two he has written for the EU. But your other choices Kier I would agree with mostly, except Mr. Vietch who I think was not given a chance to shine, if he was then I would pass judgement on him. KJA on the other hand is a good author, I just wish he did not feel the need to focus in on a super weapon. Put them in the story sure, but don't put it at the forefront. If you look at the two out of the first 3 movies, they had Superweapons, but they were not the focus. They helped the story along greatly, but the focus was on the characters. Something which I have seen some Star Wars authors accomplish every time they have written.

 

Obi-Wans_love_child,

wow, all I can say is I agree ;-)

 

Indeed, that was perfect.

 

I have never understood why Corran Horn is not a Jedi master, other than perhaps he has not chosen to assume that title.

People blame Mike Stackpole of blatant Larry Stuism with Corran, and maybe they are right. I can't deny, and this is where I may sound like a hypocrite, that I love the character. I don't deny that, after Zahn's handling of Luke in TTT, Corran seemed like a breath of fresh air to me after Luke's stuffy incompetance in TTT. Humorless and devoid of passion and compassion that made Luke so memorable from the movies, Zahn's Luke is barely a shadow of his former self. Corran Horn, on the other hand, seems so alive, so vibrant by comparison, even when written by other authors- like Keyes in Rebirth- Corrans humor and drive were still there, even if a little subdued. Compared to Zahn's handling of Corran in HoT, he was dull and lifeless and humorless, exactly like Zahn's Luke, in fact, most of his characters period, seem so surly and serious all the time. The man can't even write a decent wise cracking Han Solo. Could you imagine Zahn writing a Wraith Squadron book?

Or perhaps he has not focused on his jedi skills enough since he still was with rogue squadron for so long. I would think things will change soon for him.

Agreed- I love Corran and he remains, despite being a Larry Stu, my favorite EU character. I, Jedi clinched it for me, and while the last 1/4 of the book may have been rushed, it still doesn't change the fact the fact that in one novel we got as much detail on one character than we do in 3 books. Yes, Corran is a smart ass and seemed to be written to be on par with the movie characters, but it still doesn't change the fact that he is a good character.

Conversely, I do not feel the same about Mara Jade. She is not a good character, in fact, I seriously doubt she even qualifies as a good person. She is selfish, insulting, condescending, often mean, jokes about having characters killed (Kyp in Conquest). And whereas Corran had the benefit of Luke tutlage for months as a Jedi before speaking his mind, Mara didn't have even that before lecturing him about the Force.

I know whose side I'm on. Besides, as I, Genghis amd others have said before, it seemed Zahn was speaking through Mara rather than Mara simply providing her own 2 cents worth. Which is, as I have said, is how much she is short of a penny.

When it comes to Mara though I can understand how she was deemed a Jedi Master. This is a woman who is strong in the force, even if there are those who dispute it in here, look at a woman who was able to fight off a virus which killed every other person it infected.

Define strong. Raw power or potential? So far she has exhibited neither, except in fighting a disease that made no sense begin with, and even then it was Luke who defeated it.

She was able to hear the emperor from anywhere in the universe and yes his power helped the most, but hers had to be there too.

Well, I have my own ideas on telepathy. Any radio can pick up a powerful enough broadcast.

And the audience is listening.

Can you really see ole palpy taking a weak woman as his hand?

Force sensitives don't exactly grow on trees. At best, I suspect, she is about average. Probably no stronger or weaker, than say Leia.

She learned what she had too while at Luke's academy.

Except that should be and would be more dangerous than good to anyone else except Mara Jade. Look how dangerous a partially trained Kyp Durron was, and because of that, Exar Kun made him his bitch. Mara should be just as vulnerable, if not more so to this sort of outside influence than anyone else alive *because* of her connection to the Dark Side, and the fact that she lived a pretty heinous existence before Luke bailed her out and saved her.

She knew more than she let on to when anyone asked how much jedi training she had been given, by the emperor.

Except, AFAIK, no one has gone much into this WRT her back story.

She learned a lot more as she and Luke fought side b

 

Mara diesease typicly killed people in a week, but Mara survived it almost a year, also, it was ben not Luke that cured mara, it was his raw force potential that cured Mara.

And Corran did joke about killing Kyp, in one of the DT books he said he wished he had the power of TK so he could strangle Kyp with his own cloak.

 

Mara diesease typicly killed people in a week, but Mara survived it almost a year, also, it was ben not Luke that cured mara, it was his raw force potential that cured Mara.

Which is pretty much what I said.

And Corran did joke about killing Kyp, in one of the DT books he said he wished he had the power of TK so he could strangle Kyp with his own cloak.

And I never even mentioned Corran NOT saying anything like that, either.

Bad Corran! No denying it, he shouldn't have said it.

However, I can't shake the feeling Mara was more serious. Then Kyp would have ripped her a few new ones.

 

Define strong. Raw power or potential? So far she has exhibited neither, except in fighting a disease that made no sense begin with, and even then it was Luke who defeated it.

Ah but she has shown but raw power and potential. She has survived fighting the Vong with the disease and without it (took out her fair share while being sick). She has shown herself to be adept at defense with a strongly defined danger sense. Yes she does need help in finally defeating the disease, but considering how strong it was and the fact that she was not using the force to fight it back since she was protecting her child she showed a great amount of strength that way also.

Force sensitives don't exactly grow on trees. At best, I suspect, she is about average. Probably no stronger or weaker, than say Leia.

Uh Leia is a jedi with the strongest potential out there. She is the equal of Luke in potential so i would agree with you that Mara is as strong as Leia.

Except that should be and would be more dangerous than good to anyone else except Mara Jade. Look how dangerous a partially trained Kyp Durron was, and because of that, Exar Kun made him his bitch. Mara should be just as vulnerable, if not more so to this sort of outside influence than anyone else alive *because* of her connection to the Dark Side, and the fact that she lived a pretty heinous existence before Luke bailed her out and saved her.

Heinous yes. But did she draw upon the force when doing these evil things. That was the debate which was taken up in the HoT series and I think the one thing which helps to define why she has not fallen to the dark side like Kyp did. Plus Kyp was only 16 and just introduced to the force while he was influenced by Kun. Mara had years and years of experience and life to know what to do and how she may be influenced.

Hum, I'd dispute that Leia and Han know Luke better than anyone else alive, and that includes Mara.

If you remember from the books it is even stated that there was a bond which Luke and Mara shared which opened them up fully to know their deepest fears, desires, wants, needs. That tells me just how well they know each other.

Except, as Nichos pointed out, she wasn't.

How do we know she wasn't?

Corran's had 15-20 years and he still isn't one, and he's been proactive.

Has he though. He himself stated he did not always focus on the force. Was he truly a jedi after I, Jedi? Or perhaps he regressed after I, Jedi because of his military career. There is a lot left unsaid about this.

He IS Luke Skywalker, torch bearer of the greatest name in the history of the Jedi, a special case to say the least. He was also trained by 2 Jedi.[/]

More than two actually. And Mara has recieved training from atleast 2 we know of.

Except she isn't a full time Jedi like Luke or Kyp or Tionne, for her, it's just another skill set to be used whenever. She has no devotion to it the way Luke and the others are.

Does she really act that way? There are many types of Jedi Knights out there. She has been a teacher, a warrior, a mediator, and much more. She has used her jedi skills in many ways. She seems to be very devoted to the Jedi in the NJO. She never discards other Jedi around her. She never does anything which shows her having disdain for the Jedi as a whole after HoT. In the NJO she is Jedi through and Through. I do not see how she is not one.

 

My response is gonna be weird because it's a copy and paste of a copy and paste...

I have never understood why Corran Horn is not a Jedi master, other than perhaps he has not chosen to assume that title.

People blame Mike Stackpole of blatant Larry Stuism with Corran, and maybe they are right. I can't deny, and this is where I may sound like a hypocrite, that I love the character. I don't deny that, after Zahn's handling of Luke in TTT, Corran seemed like a breath of fresh air to me after Luke's stuffy incompetance in TTT. Humorless and devoid of passion and compassion that made Luke so memorable from the movies, Zahn's Luke is barely a shadow of his former self. Corran Horn, on the other hand, seems so alive, so vibrant by comparison, even when written by other authors- like Keyes in Rebirth- Corrans humor and drive were still there, even if a little subdued. Compared to Zahn's handling of Corran in HoT, he was dull and lifeless and humorless, exactly like Zahn's Luke, in fact, most of his characters period, seem so surly and serious all the time. The man can't even write a decent wise cracking Han Solo. Could you imagine Zahn writing a Wraith Squadron book?

True, Zahn is not the guy to go to for humor. But Luke as uncompasionet? No possible way, he went out of his way to try to save a mad Jedi Master.

Or perhaps he has not focused on his jedi skills enough since he still was with rogue squadron for so long. I would think things will change soon for him.

Agreed- I love Corran and he remains, despite being a Larry Stu, my favorite EU character. I, Jedi clinched it for me, and while the last 1/4 of the book may have been rushed, it still doesn't change the fact the fact that in one novel we got as much detail on one character than we do in 3 books. Yes, Corran is a smart ass and seemed to be written to be on par with the movie characters, but it still doesn't change the fact that he is a good character.

Agreed Corran rules.

Conversely, I do not feel the same about Mara Jade. She is not a good character, in fact, I seriously doubt she even qualifies as a good person. She is selfish, insulting, condescending, often mean, jokes about having characters killed (Kyp in Conquest). And whereas Corran had the benefit of Luke tutlage for months as a Jedi before speaking his mind, Mara didn't have even that before lecturing him about the Force.

Selfish? How the hell can a Jedi,. who has sworn to save people be selfish? Insulting? In the begining yes know no. Condencending? Same as insulting. Often mean? Same, for all three, they were there to keep her at a distance from others(she says so herself) EXPECIALLY Luke. Dark sence of humor? Yep nothing wrong with that. And Kyp was an ass all the way up to mid SbS.

I know whose side I'm on. Besides, as I, Genghis amd others have said before, it seemed Zahn was speaking through Mara rather than Mara simply providing her own 2 cents worth. Which is, as I have said, is how much she is short of a penny.

Ouch, Zahn may have been speaking through her but so what?

When it comes to Mara though I can understand how she was deemed a Jedi Master. This is a woman who is strong in the force, even if there are those who dispute it in here, look at a woman who was able to fight off a virus which killed every other person it infected.

Define strong. Raw power or potential? So far she has exhibited neither, except in fighting a disease that made no sense begin with, and even then it was Luke who defeated it.

True that diseas was odd... But again and again she has been shown to have both kinds of power. Luke says he sees GREAT potential in her. And time and time again she has fought incredibly well. She was the first Jedi to kill a Vong in one on one combat WHILE she was infected with the diseas. And also her and Anakins running battle on Dantooine was very impresive.

She was able to hear the emperor from anywhere in the universe and yes his power helped the most, but hers had to be there too.

Well, I h

 

How do we know she wasn't?

Mainly the NEGTC.

She clearly had special abilitys since she was the only hand to hear him like that.

Yes, each hand had different abilities. Palpatine focused training them on what they did best, as any master would.

She obviosly had has more training than she has flat up and out said.

PPOR.

She obviosly did not spend 6 full years knocking around the Galaxy with Mirax.

Really? PPOR. The Essential Chronology says otherwise.

Anderson is the WORST SW author there is

In your opinion, don't state it like it's a fact.

 

Tahiri may be called a learner, but she's not. If she really was, would she have been able to go to Myrkr and Coruscant? I Know it's a time of war, but couldn't the Jedi have found another real knight to replace her? The fact that she could go to either place based solely off her own will tells me that she is only a padawan off title. The only reason she isn't a knight is because of her age (15 or 16). That's the only reason, she's done as much as the others who are 2-3 years older than her, so age is what is the determining factor when it comes to knighthood, not ability.

Also consider that Mara Jade's only training that is greater than that of the other Jedi is that she may have been trained by Palpy when she was younger. But nothing says that it is true, only suspicions. And even though Mara has stuck close to Luke for the past decade or so doesn't really mean that she got a greater amount of training. Mara's personality alone prevented that from happening. She's not the type of person that will be a quiet sponge when it comes to learning the true ways of the Jedi. she's a very conflicting person. knowing luke inside and out doesn't mean anything when it comes to the force. like someone else said, the Force is not a foreign language. you can't gain greater understanding it just because you understand the habits, etc. of a master. it's more like a religion. if you were the brother/sister/husband/wife of a priest, would that make you more faithful? No. it's the same way with the Force.

 

Wow, there's so much stuff here. This is all I'm going to say on the subject of Mara being a Jedi Master, as opposed to Corran and other Jedi. Who's to say that everyone makes it to Master? Personally, if I had it my way, I would have made Luke, Kyp, Kam, and perhaps one or two others Masters. I've never thought that Corran or Tioone, (pardon any spelling mistakes), as being strong enough to make it to Master. In the past, several Padawans never made it to Knighthood. Why do all Jedi have to be Masters?

At this point, I think that Mara should be on her way to becoming a Master. She's strong enough and has a lot of experience by this point, but there just wasn't enough time between VotF and the NJO for her to accomplish that. Sorry. (And, yes, I am a huge Mara fan, so I normally favor her).

ps...what else did Luke have to do in TTT? He betrayed the New Republic to go to Wayland with Mara, tried to HELP Mara, (a person who he knew wanted to kill me), and was desperately attempting to bring a crazy Jedi Master back to sanity. He even offered himself to the guy to allow his friends to leave. Man, what a selfish bastard!

 

Tahiri is a Jedi Knight in all but name. See Rebel Stand.

 

Tionne is a perfect choice for Master- she's an original student who stuck with the academy, no one with the exception of Luke, Cilghal and Kam have that level of dedication.

Second. Her husband is a Jedi Master. Why is it we can assume that one of the reasons Mara has made it to Master is because Luke is her husband and a Jedi Master, and yet we can't give Tionne the same benefit of the doubt.

Third. She's as pure as the driven snow. Never once has it been chronicled that she has even had a brush with the Dark Side. Tionne is sweet, compassionate, caring, decent, loving, and more devoted to the Jedi Order than almost anyone else alive.

Fourth. Just because she's not out there gutting Yuuzhan Vong and flying an X-wing, doesn't mean she isn't capable of it. Looking after those children means everything to her. They are the galaxy's best hope for salvation from the Yuuzahn Vong menace.

 

Kier, we agree completlly on this. Tionne should have been a master years ago.

 

Nicely put, Kier.

 

It doesn't hurt that I completely adore her, and IMO, one of the most under used characters in the EU.

 

Indeed she is. Along with half of the Jedi.
It seeems that for the "NJO" they've managed to focus on a very small amount of Jedi.

 

Maybe it should be called 'The FEW Jedi Order', then.

 

Indeed

 

I agree Kier, Tionne should by a Jedi Master and is way underused. Doesn't Tionne help in the training of the students anyway? Might as well just make her a Master. She does far more teaching then Mara Jade ever did. Come to think of it Mara just claimed to be Jaina's master but never actually did any training. Didn't Kyp spend more timing training Jaina then Mara? While Tionne on the other hand has spent years on Yavin 4 instructing the young soon-to-be-Jedis. So who really deserves the title of Master? Tionne who spent years training under Luke? Or Mara who won the title by merely marrying Luke?

 

We don't know how long Mara had Jaina as a Padawan. But aI will agree that no matter what Tionne did more training of the students.

 

Actually we do know how long Mara had Jaina as a padawan. It was just before Vector Prime.

 

Just before or a few months or what?

 

I agree Kier, Tionne should by a Jedi Master and is way underused. Doesn't Tionne help in the training of the students anyway? Might as well just make her a Master. She does far more teaching then Mara Jade ever did.

Yup. Her deal is to teach the students ballads and songs of ancient Jedi, imparting strong morals and ideals in them that way.

Come to think of it Mara just claimed to be Jaina's master but never actually did any training.

I think it went as far as Vector Prime and that was it.

Didn't Kyp spend more timing training Jaina then Mara?

IMO, Kyp had ulterior motives.

While Tionne on the other hand has spent years on Yavin 4 instructing the young soon-to-be-Jedis. So who really deserves the title of Master? Tionne who spent years training under Luke? Or Mara who won the title by merely marrying Luke?

Luke got the crappy end of that stick. He should have married Tionne.