Canadian Theological Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Canada General' started by Ian_Ball, Nov 17, 2001.

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  1. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
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    1) why is it when people made predictions, it was evil witchcraft, but when the bible does it...it`s all good?

    2) what do you think of the bible code?

    3) What are people goona say when Jesus id proven not to be a divine being? (those of you who follow news will know what I`m talking about)
  2. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    1. I have never called any prediction "evil witchcraft" in my life. There are some cooks out there who make instant judgments like that. Instant judgments are wrong. There are some people who are false prophets, and some who are true prophets. In the Old Testament, it says that there is only one way to tell if someone is a true prophet - their prophecy must come true. If it doesn't then they are not a true prophet. If I predict that stormtroopers will invade Earth in 10 minutes, I am a prophet. When it doesn't come true, I am branded as a false prophet. Easy as that.

    2. For a while, I thought the Bible code was some true inspired prophecy, but I think that idea is quite naive. The Bible code reads letters up and down, diagonally, etc. Every "prediction" is discovered after-the-fact. If you wanted to, you could do the same thing with any Hebrew or Greek literature. All you have to do is find the right combination of characters. So you see, I think it's bogus, although there are some Christians who believe in it.

    3. I guess I don't follow news enough, because I don't know what you're talking about there. As far as I'm concerned, there is only one way to disprove the deity of Christ - you have to disprove his death and resurrection. That is the foundation of the Christian faith. He died to pay our penalty for us, and then he rose from the dead to show that he conquered sin and death.
  3. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

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    Sep 21, 2001
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    documents similar to the dead sea scrolls (same era, same location) are said to disprove the divinity of Jesus...they are apparently under lock and key in the Vatican...but this is kinda like what Nostradamus said about the fall of the Catholic church, and all associated....only problem is, one religion will replace all others, etc, etc....the bible says the same I think...
  4. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
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    Hmm...well, I don't exactly consider the Dead Sea Scrolls to be Scripture, and nor would I consider these new ones to be. I don't understand how a man-made document can disprove the deity of Christ, but like I said...if you can disprove the death and resurrection...

    The prophecies of Nostradamus are quite debated within Christian circles. Like I said, if it comes true, then he was right.

    Yes, you are right. One religion will replace all the others. Well...not really replace...but more like combine. There will be a world religion comprised of the religions we have now. If you can imagine...that would be a chaotic religion, and talk about contradictions! But still, that will happen in the dark days that are yet to come...
  5. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
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    I`m looking forward to it actually...too much bad in the world...as long as it happens after ep3 ;)

    2023 sticks in my head for some reason...seems like a logical time frame for everything to escalate.
  6. Entil`Zha Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 4
    2012 as per the Mayans... December 20-something, before Xmas, so either it's 20 or 23..
  7. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
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    Careful, the Bible says that we cannot know of dates or times when these things will happen. Knowing God's sense of humour and irony, he'll start it all on a day that some idiot says could never bring destruction. Also, we are cautioned not to desire the Day of the Lord, for the torment will be so great - we will plead with the mountains to fall on top of us, but we will remain in torment. I sound like a prophet of doom...Love it!!!

    And yes, I would like to enjoy the entire Star Wars Saga for a few years before these things happen. :)
  8. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
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    Why not look forward too it? I bet god is.
  9. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
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    Um...You need to realize that God is not a mean guy. His whole message is love. He loves and cares for each person, and hates the fact that he must bring judgment. Remember that it is only because of sin - which is our own doing. We don't want to look forward to the chaos and torment, but there is a promise to all those who love God and believe in Jesus. We can look forward to an eternity in Heaven, which is totally devoid of all the crap that goes on down here. Everyone else...well, that's not a pretty picture.

    I know that getting rid of the evil will be a good thing, but the evil that is to be purged also dwells inside all people. Only Jesus Christ can purge the evil from within. So when the evil is eradicated, then all those who still have evil (or sin) in their hearts will be eradicated as well.
  10. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
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    Well how about someone like me? I believe in Jesus, I beilive he was probally a great guy too...I believe the bible has some "diamonds in the rough" so to speak...I`m not a bad person..well I try not to be anyways...when judgement comes etc, etc, what happens to people like me...do we all go to hell? purgatory? heaven? MCDONALDS????? ;)
  11. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Well, first of all I need to say that only God knows people's hearts. I, by no means, have the authority to say who is going to Heaven and who isn't. If I dared do that, I would be playing God.

    Now you say you believe in Jesus. Does that mean you just believe he existed? Or do you believe that he is the Son of God? I was hoping that you would ask that sometime, because it is the most basic concept of Christianity. I'm going to quote some passages from the book of Romans, and they are pretty self-explanatory. If you have any further questions on it...just put them in your reply.

    3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

    6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.

    10:9 - That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    So, here's the truth. Every single person in this world is going to Hell, because of sin - which is our own fault. Yes, that means guys like you and me. We don't deserve Heaven, but Jesus came and paid our penalty. If you do what Romans 10:9 says, you are going to Heaven, my friend.
  12. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    Yes I believe Jesus was real
    Do I believe he was the son of God...No
    Do I believe that he rose from the dead..maybe...unless the pope declares the shroud of turin to be legit, then no.

    Hell dosen`t seem so bad...tecnically, you`re immortal, so you`d get used to it after 200 years or so...and plus, you can do what you want.

    In heaven, however...If I wanted to curse the name of Jesus right to his face...I coulden`t...and what if i feel like doing that..Heaven shoulden`t be a dictatorship...that`s why the USA works..they get to elect their leader...christians have to live with theirs for eternity.
  13. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Ok, so you don't believe Jesus is God. I can accept that. Most people in the world don't believe it. That is why Jesus said that few will find Heaven. I do believe that shroud was proven to be a fake, but even if it isn't, an inanimate object can only have power if God chooses to channel his power through it. So the resurrection would be by God's power anyway.

    It really saddens me when I hear people say that Hell won't be that bad. I see where you're coming from, but whether you know it or not, God's presence in your life even now makes a huge difference. Man cannot be sustained without his Creator. Your soul is immortal; it cannot die. Human imagination cannot comprehend how awful Hell will be, because it cannot comprehend existence without God.

    I cannot understand why you would want to curse the name of Jesus to his face? What has he ever done but love you? He gave up his perfect glory in Heaven to come to Earth as a mere man, to suffer and die when he could have called an army of angels to incinerate the planet. Why didn't he? Because he had YOU on his mind! He loves you. In that light, do you still want to curse him? I hope not.

    The universe is a dictatorship, my friend. God is in control of everything because he is God. The only area that God leaves alone is Hell! If you are in Heaven, there are no rules, because there is no sin to require rules. In heaven, we will be what God created us to be - holy people, the masters of creation and the angels. And personally, I can't think of a greater leader to elect.
  14. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
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    Well no, if the late J.C. is really "god" then I woulden`t curce him to his face...and I would love to go to heaven, but everyone I know is going to hell...trust me, they are...and Heaven would be no good witout those people...

    Do ya see where I`m going with this...heaven can`t be perfect and good, and nice, it`s almost impossible. Let`s say I was married, I go to heaven, my wife goes to hell...what kind of existence would my soul have without her...flawed concepts I`m afraid
  15. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    This will be my last post for tonight, because I'm going to bed. We'll continute tomorrow though.

    You just brought up a deep philosophical debate as well as theological. It has been agreed, however, that in Hell you will never see your friends. You will know what it means to be isolated from everyone, including God. Your friends will all experience the same thing, but they will be alone as well. It is an eternity of that kind of torture. You will want to die, but that is impossible for an eternal soul. Does Hell still sound cool to you?

    If you get married, and go to Heaven, I pray that your wife would share your faith in Jesus. That kind of separation will be totally awful at judgment day. I don't even want to think about that. One other thing is, in Heaven, all people will be soulmates. God will be able to reveal his full glory to us because there is no sin. Having a wife in Heaven is irrelevant because of the perfection. We will be with Yahweh for eternity! Of course, you will still want your wife from Earth with you. Although there are no more tears in Heaven, it is a solemn fact that many friends will not make it.

    I think I've said enough for tonight. Goodnight.
  16. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    :) 700th post :)

    Izrid..I am impressed with your knowledge, and I like debating with you because of that fact...a rare thing among Christians etc.

    I never thought hell to be a cool place...from what I hear, it`s pretty hot ;)

    I don`t know what to think really...when I show up to the pearly gates with 3 Marilyn Manson tattoos...and a whole list of "not nice things" in the book of life...I often wonder if it would even matter that sometimes I wanted to believe, but coulden`t...I don`t understand the feeling people talk about to have god in their lives...I`m happy to have The Beatles...

    I dunno, we`ll carry on tomorrow, cyas.
  17. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    700th post eh? HA! says the message boards, we`ll just reset you right back to 660! like we did the last time you got to 600!

    sorry...ignore my little tirade.
  18. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    You're right. Hell is quite hot. I enjoy discussing with you as well, because you're open to things.

    Lemme tell you something. God doesn't care how many Marilyn Manson tattoos you have. In fact, he doesn't even care if you ARE Marilyn Manson. The point is, we are all depraved idiots, and none of us deserve Heaven. Until you become a saint (in other words - alive in Christ), it doesn't matter whether you're Hitler or Mother Theresa. The Book of Life only contains one thing - the names of those who go to Heaven, written by the blood of Christ.

    There is never a reason to not believe, either you do or you don't. And about that feeling that people talk about when they know God...you can't possibly know it unless you experience it yourself. There's nothing wrong with the Beatles either, but nothing compares to the joy of knowing Jesus.

    Don't worry, your tirade doesn't phase me. Go ahead and vent.
  19. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
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    That dosen`t seem right to me...if hitler accepted christ as his saviour before he died..he`d be in heaven???
  20. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Some people have a hard time understanding that. My dad has been a Christian for 12 years, and he still can't understand why God would forgive a murderer. Sometimes it doesn't sit right with me. There are people that I, in my human nature, would love to see go to Hell. But God is not like that. He wants everyone to be with him.

    It is not the sinful acts that God looks at, it is the sinful nature. When a person accepts Christ, his sinful nature is wiped out, and his sinful acts are covered by the blood of Christ. You may say that's not fair. Of course it's not fair!! We all deserve to die, and it isn't fair for any of us to make it into Heaven. What would be fair by our standards would be for this whole world to burn. Praise God that he looks past it!
  21. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

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    Sep 21, 2001
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    so you don`t think god is fair?
  22. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
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    I think God is fair and just. All sin has to be paid for, and the death of Christ covers all sin. We just need to give it up to Christ to be in on the deal. What I meant is that it doesn't make sense to us why God would do that for us, but he did.

    God would have been perfectly justified in letting us burn, but he chose to give us a way out. God is going beyond the boundry of being fair - he is merciful to us.
  23. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

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    Sep 21, 2001
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    He could have left us to our own devices...that would have been ideal in my mind.
  24. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
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    What devices? If he left us to our own devices, we would burn anyway! There is not one single thing that we can do to save our own souls. Left up to us - we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't...literally! Only through Jesus is redemption available.

    If God were to remove his presence from the world (i.e. Deism), we would destroy each other. Ever heard of the Battle of Armegeddon? That is what will happen right after God takes his presence (and all believers) from the face of the Earth. God goes bye bye = people go bye bye. We kill each other off - evil is full-blown. You get the point I hope. I have another practice to attend.
  25. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
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    I get the point...it`s just I thought "armmegeddon"(sp) was a place where a battle actually took place...and lots of the bible`s "miracles" such as the fall of the walls of jericho(sp?) can be explained with conventional wisdom..I`m just wondering if the other "facts" will be eventually explained.
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