Christianity - For Those Who Don't Understand

But wasn't Methodism 'invented' well after the Reformation, too?

 

Beats me. Since some of their rituals are similar to the Catholics', and their credo professes a faith in the "holy catholic church", I had always assumed they were Protestant.

 

Well Madmardigan, I'm not the best Christian, but I saw your questions and I'll answer them as best I can...

1) Why did God sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself?

Well, as I understand it when Lucifer feel from grace and became Satan he took with him 1/3 of all the angels of heaven...not by force, but by the power of his arguments and accusations against God. I imagine that Satan had become jealous and prideful against God and then accused God of being unfair, that God demanded worship by force. God took that accusation and said very well Satan, you may have a single one of my worlds to call your own. You institute your own government there. He did and we have the world that is here today. God still wanted to save the inhabitants of this world, but he had to give them a choice because of the arguments of Satan. Basically Satan and God argued until Satan pinned God into a corner and God said, Ok well if I come down live a perfect life then die and rise again can I save people THEN? Satan was forced to answer yes. <--this is how I imagine it went down

2) Why did he take so long to institute this new convenant?

As stated above, I think this had to do with Galactic politics.


3) How did one enter the kingdom of Heaven before Jesus?

I think it was still by the grace of God, but that Satan probably threw fits each time because he thought it was unjust.

4a) Why was God revealed only to a small population in a remote portion of the world?

This is a difficult question. Probably because the people of Israel were his chosen people.

4b) What happened to all those souls who just after the ressurrection and before all the New testament was even written?

I think they're under the Grace of God as well.

5a) Why can Hitler be saved, yet all 6 million Jews he gassed go to Hell?

This is an inherently specist argument, but I'll answer in anyway. IMHO these things are left to God and God's judgement alone. The bible says judge not lest ye be judged and I think it's referring to these types of things specifically. My beliefs run along the lines that any person, Jew or killer can be saved...we don't know the content of their heart at their death.

5b) Is that an all loving God?

We must remember that God is a loving God, but he's also a God of justice. He'll do what's right.

 

" Basically Satan and God argued until Satan pinned God into a corner and God said, Ok well if I come down live a perfect life then die and rise again can I save people THEN? Satan was forced to answer yes."

So God had to get Satan's permission?

"As stated above, I think this had to do with Galactic politics."

And why does God even have to deal with politics? Shouldn't he be above all that?

 

I think the argument was raised that God isn't fair, that His government had the deck stacked so to speak. So, this earth was given to Satan for him to do as he wished...to prove to the rest of the Galactic citizens that God's way is just while Satan's form of government turned out...badly.

^^^^

Just my opinion.

 

How can satan out argue god, Isnt God omnipotent and omniscient?

 

Yes, but He gave His angels choice, just like He gave humans. And if they chose not to follow Him because they wanted power of their own, he would not stop him.


2. About the "Why did God reveal himself to a small community etc. etc.?" Um...The Roman Empire was definitely not a small community. Jesus may not have gone parading around Rome itself but at the time He was in the center of the civilized world. And eventhough he himself did not come down as like this big old glorified thing, he certainly got some very high people in the Roman government involved. The Pharisees (who were paid and chosen by the Roman Govt.) Pontius Pilate, all those Herods, etc. God picked the perfect place for word to spread and grow -- it would have been like coming to New York City or London today.

 

Wylding, do you affiliate yourself with any specific Christian denomination? Because I've never heard this view of God in any of the Christian groups with which I'm familiar.

 

Why doesn't he come to London or New York today then?

Nows as good as anytime as it was in the past.

I think I would really look forward to meeting God.

It would save us all this argument.

I know, I know. Gods a busy supernatual being and all.

I guess he will just have to send his son again.

Always pawning off his duties onto Angels and his son.

Latre!

 

How can satan out argue god, Isnt God omnipotent and omniscient?

I'm sure that Satan used this to his advantage in his argument and I'm sure that God knew he would do it.

So then you ask, why would God create Lucifer knowing he would fall becoming Satan? The answer is simple, He loved/s him.

 

I recently picked up a book of Christian denominations and there are something like 600 different, distinct denominations operating out in the world. The Church of England was the first to break off when Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife and the Catholic church wouldn't let him. So, as a "protest"ant, he formed the Church of England. He wound up killing his wife and marrying another. But that's a different story. Martin Luther and others broke off based on theological differences, which they also thought were important enought to separate from the Catholic church for. So, yes, not all non-Catholic denominations are "Protestant", but the term has been coined to mean just that. Therefore, the Irish conflict is between the Irish and English Church of England followers and the Irish Catholics.

On the Mary issue, the Catholics also believe that not only was Mary a virgin her whole life, but that she was concieved in her mother by Holy Spirit, thus also born without sin, just like Jesus. That's really where the controversy occurs on that issue. Unfortunately, I don't know where they got that information, probably extracanonical literature that had the story in it, be it another Gospel or letter that was not canonized.

I would like to add that the stories about Lucifer and other angels/fallen angels are from the works of John Milton and Dante. They were incorporated into the doctrine of the Catholic church after they were published.

I think, and please correct me on this, but the Jews do not believe in heaven and hell (or at least they didn't back in ancient times). There are references to "limbo" where souls went after death. That would be the case, I think, no matter when or how they died. Many Christians (not all) actually believe that the Jews are still saved from condemnation/damnation BECAUSE they are God's chosen people. Others believe it doesn't matter, they either believe in Jesus or go to hell!

 

I would like to add that the stories about Lucifer and other angels/fallen angels are from the works of John Milton and Dante. They were incorporated into the doctrine of the Catholic church after they were published.

Actually, much of what I'm telling can be found in the Old Testament of the bible. Isaiah, Ezekiel and Job are good places to start.

 

So, yes, not all non-Catholic denominations are "Protestant", but the term has been coined to mean just that.

Not exactly; it means a new denomination formed in protest to the Catholic church - from some of its own congregation. If you believe, as some Baptists do, that you were never part of the Catholic church to begin with, then the term doesn't really apply.

 

Womberty - good point there. I stand corrected.

Wyldling - in Job, Satan was an officer of the Court of Heaven, doing only to Job what God allowed him to do. I have studied much of the Bible, but I do not recall anything about Lucifer and fallen angels. Could you please refer me to some passages so I may be more educated. I'm not saying this in jest or sarcasm, but in desire to better myself and my knowledge.

Thanks.

 

Isaiah 14:12
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,[14:12 Literally [Day Star] ] son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Wyldling - in Job, Satan was an officer of the Court of Heaven, doing only to Job what God allowed him to do.

Important point, he was an ex-officer of heaven doing the maximum amount of damage he could do to Job...

 

You stated that satan argued God into a corner, so my question is if God is omnicient and omnipotent, how can he be pushed into a corner?

 

Wylding, according to religioustolerance.org:
Isaiah 14:12-24 is interpreted by some as referring to Satan by the name "helel" in Hebrew. This is often translated as "Lucifer" or "Morning Star." The passage describes how he had fallen from heaven, was thrown to earth, expressed a desire to sit "on the mountains where the Gods assemble", wished to be like God, and had attacked many cities, leaving them in ruins. At first glance, this looks like a description of some of the activities of Satan. However, verse 4 clearly states that the passage refers to the King of Babylon, not to Satan. Isaiah was simply showing "sarcastic contempt for the mighty Babylonian monarch that had recently fallen, vanished as does [the morning star] Venus from the daytime sky.".

 

Again this is my own thought and not supported by any biblical evidence, but I believe that the weight of universal opinion caused God to allow Satan to have his own form of governemnt here on earth.

Basically, I think that there are worlds out there that want to see whether or not Satan's arguments about God are correct or not. The only objective evidence they have is how he governs this earth.

God, being fair and just is allowing Satan to test his governmental form here.

We being unlucky or fated, depending upon your viewpoint, are here and are/were pretty much screwed until God decided to allow for a plan of Salvation. Enter Jesus and his lifework.

gwaernardel, that's an interesting point, but one that I believe is false.

 

From what I remember of my studies is that a 3rd of the angels went against God and joined the side of Lucifer (before the creation of the world, there was a war in heaven). Lucifer and his evil angels were still in heaven until Adam and Eve ate the apple. After that, they were thrown down to earth. So that is why we humans are constantly fighting a spiritual battle between good and evil...we got caught into the middle of a war.

Lucifer (now called Satan) and his evil angles (now called demons) are bent on destroying human souls. They want to keep people away from the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Satan doesn't want people to know that they have gauranteed eternal life through the sacrificial death of the Messiah (Jesus). The war in heaven that was at once a war for power has turned into a war for souls....

 

This is essentially what I have come to believe as what's going on Wormie.

 

What are satan's motivations?

 

Intially I think it was to be part of the Godhead. I think Satan wanted to sway universal opinion to his side.

However, seeing as how his attempt at government has turned out, I believe that he knows the end for himself is near. I think his motivation now is to quite simply take down as many people as he can. It's the classic, "if I'm going down, you're coming with me" attitude.

^^^^

Just my thoughts and opinions.

 

I agree with you Wylding. Satan hates God. Satan knows eventually that he is going down, and that he's going down hard. He and his demons will suffer eternal punishment when the end has come. But we have a chance for eternal life, it's been given to us through Christ...a free gift from God. Lucifer doesn't have this chance and never will. He blew it. According to Christian doctrine, God will create a new Earth for all the saved souls. Jesus will be King, and of course, sits at the right hand of God because of what he has done for the world.

 

In my own opinion I'd think Lucifer is jealous of humanity.

After all, God created angels, but then went further and created humanity. To a ego as I imagine Lucifer having the fact god felt it neccesary to continue creating would be intolerable, but then to make man dominate? to much to bear.


Then again only my opinion.

 

What are satan's motivations?

The thing we should all keep in mind is that Satan knows his own fate. Anyone can find out for themselves by reading the book of Revelation.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev. 20:10

His only goal now is to drag as many people into eternal torment with him. He knows he can't win, but the joy of knowing he kept someone else from entering the Lord's kingdom is his motivation.