Oregon Debate- LOTR vs. STAR WARS SAGA vs. Matrix Trilogy

Generations have enjoyed all of these Epic Tales. Comparisons can be made of all of them. The debate is for you to decide, argue your point,& convince others to your OPINION. I myself enjoy all of them, but choose The Star Wars Saga as the overall best. Story wise has to be LOTR, massive battle and great details. For the Techno in me has to be The Matrix Trilogy. But in the end I choose Star Wars because it has been a major part in my life. Not only for the collectibility, but for the life lessons learned from it. What say you?

 

E you already know my answer to this, and I KNOW the following take will put me on the sh!t list here, but all time greatest, book and film(notice I did not say merchandise) HAS TO BE LORD OF THE RINGS. Mainly because its such a timeless classic even before it made it to the big screen. Now that the movie adaptations have been so grandiose, and the men behind the camera have done such astonishing job bringing Middle-Earth "alive" the classic can now be considered legend.

Now when it comes to the toys, and video games, the comics, and so forth Stars Wars is King, nay a Juggernaught.

As for The Matrix, I have thoroughly enjoyed all that I have seen thus far and cannot wait for next week's release of Reloaded, as well as next months Debut of Revolutions. The Matrix takes obvious queues from Star Wars and LOTR, and doe have a good story behind it, one its completed I think many people will better appreciate Reloaded.

 

People only wish that LOTR even compared with the greatness of Star Wars.

There is no real comparison. The Star Wars Saga is vastly superior and more epic than LOTR. The story is better, the characters are better, the locations are better, the dialogue is better and funnier.

I love the LOTR films so far, they are nearly perfect movies, FOTR is like a 98 out of 100, TTT is about a 99 if not a 100, but they still aren't anywhere near the SW films, any of them.

 

ditto, exactly everything I was gunna say!

 

Bowen, yea, Star Wars can thank the LOTR SAGA for its very existence. Period. Tolkien's work is a truly timeless classic that spanned Generations, and will continue to do so, think of it Shakespeare for Fantasy, end of story.

Funny I should say that too, since the ummm..."corny-ness" of SW can almost tarnish it for many people, myself included. Tolkein's prose and vastly superior skill in details and character development truly makes one sweat in anticipation for the next line. SW (espeically EP I AND EP II) have too much predictibility in them to keep the suspense there throughout the entire movie. Details are revealed too quickly, or obviously. I knoew what was going to happen, rather easily and I was not spoiled.

I could nit pick it for hours, sure, but I won't. I can sleep soundly knowing that SW is not the end all be all for a great movies. Watch, once ROTK wins the Oscar for Best Picture next year, you'll turn too.

 

pshaw.


(hehe, just kiddin)

 

Star Wars IS the "be all end all" as you put it for all movies. No movie has ever or will ever be as good as any of the Star Wars films.

Furthermore, there is nothing "corny" about any of the films. That's just utter nonsense and I hate having supposed FANS of the saga spout that kind of crap.

Lucas owes Tolkien NOTHING whatsoever. He didn't develop anything from the LOTR work whatsoever; it wasn't even an influence!

The lines in LOTR are good, mostly, but there isn't anything very memorable. There are maybe a few memorable lines in the two movies so far, but it's not about the dialogue in LOTR, it's the epic nature of the story and the great locations and fantastic cinematography. It's obviously a wonderful story and I love the LOTR films, but they don't compete with the Star Wars films, which are vastly superior in every respect from effects to dialogue to story to characters.

I say go to an LOTR forum if you're so obsessed with those movies. This is a Star Wars forum. Welcome.

 

B, you go on and on but all I hear is blah blah blah at this point because you have nothing backing your statements period.

Box office records, please, adjust for inflation rates and GONE WITH THE WIND is STILL the overall box office record holder, I dare you to prove me wrong.

As for LOTR not bring influence, thats a tough to swallow, some as influential as LOTR, and lucas being the dork that he is, HAD TO HAVE read LOTR and you cannot tell me the story swept him up made his imagination soar. If you are going to write an Epic LOTR needs to be on the short list for reference material, for pacing, character dev, drama, love interests, setting dev, and cultural dev. of a unquie and new enviroment. Many people out there will agree with me on that.

OH...no memorable lines from LOTR?? Try this (now found on many cars in the form of a bumper sticker) "All those who wander are not lost."

Try that on for starters and let me know if your memory needs any more help.

Nothing corny at all....ALL OF ANAKINS LINES FROM EP I ARE CORNY, PURE CORNYNESS. OH AND JAR JARs TOO

 

I don't remember THAT line in LOTR, huh.

 

Yeah I'd definately say STAR WARS all the way, i mean lord of the rings is done with, we know the ending.....ive been waiting 21 years of my life to see how this ends....besides the anticipation, I'm glad Star Wars didnt have to be changed the way LOTRS was, like the elves at helms deep? That never happened, making the Aragorn Arwen relationship more than whats really there in the books...to me thats kinda weak, but i agree the movies are close to perfect if not...but NOWHERE NEAR STAR WARS....oh and talk about legend...? Star Wars' story is over generations much more fit of a legend...i'd say

 

Amen brother!

 

Jade...that line is not in the movie, you need to pick up the book and read it to find it.

Tokyo,I am was not 100% thrilled with the changes and additions that the LOTR core story recieved either, I do know that it was done to help bridge some of the more fantastic aspects of the story soe joe six pack can believe things better. LOTR's story focuses on a small series of events that have spanned generations, the key aspects. If you were to also read the Silimiarallion, and afterworks the JRR's son completed, you would know that the story did span generations. Remember when concieved LOTR was only meant to be novels, not movies, unlike SW that was intended to be movies not novels. I think LOTR transistion to the big screen, minus, what are really forgivable alterations, was superb and THATs why in this instance LOTR > SW > The Matrix

 

I'm not really here to diss LOTR at all, but what are we comparing here? Well yeah there is the simarillion and such, but there also is a whole EU out there that isn't dead...and its because when it comes down to it, STAR WARS is limitless....

Plus I think the Death Star would tear middle Earth up quite easily

 

I admit that is a cheap shot, but i'll take it.

 

Darth ANY timeline is limitless. If the Tolkein family wanted to there could have been countless stories they could have authorized or wrote to make a Middle Earth EU. They chose not too, its not about the money its the story.


SW EPs IV-VI are GREAT, no question, EPs I and II...eh...Yoda's duel with Dooku was badass, but really nothing got me in those to flicks. Lucas should have intergrated EP 1 and 2 together, I don't think he gave enough time to himself to get EP 3 ended the way it should be, unless he makes a EP 3.5 lol.

Those two movies are the main reason I feel that LOTR is better, as a series of movies, and as a story, than SW. He screwed up BIG time, and I will not forgive him.

 

Nothing more? Flicks? Who are you?!

People who cannot appreciate Episodes I and II obviously don't understand or appreciate the overall Star Wars story arc. They apparently only like the last part of it, which isn't the Star Wars story at all -- it is merely half of it.

I think the prequels are the best films so far. The stories are much more intricate and complicated, whereas the OT is more straight-forward -- here is good, here is evil, here they fight. TPM and AOTC have less clear villains and the forces of evil are shrouded in mystery. There is a lot of confusion about what really is good and what is evil.

"Box office records, please, adjust for inflation rates and GONE WITH THE WIND is STILL the overall box office record holder, I dare you to prove me wrong."

Nobody mentioned anything about box office records did they? I didn't. Besides, don't debate the box office with me. You won't find many people who know more about it. The last time I debated SW box office knowledge and box office info in general, on another SW forum, I won a forum award for "Most Knowledgeable Poster: Box Office." I have written extensively about the subject.

GWTW is the ticket sales champ, with 9 releases. ANH has only been released 6 times. I'll bet you anything that if ANH were released 3 more times, and it will be over the next 50 years, then it will top the ticket sales total of GWTW very easily. As it stands now, it is barely behind. Adjusted for inflation GWTW is only about $140 million ahead (something around $1.1 billion to just under $1 billion as I recall... but there has been additional inflation so maybe each stat is higher now).

While FOTR and TTT certainly burned up the box office, no doubt about that, their grosses were not phenomenal, "merely" excellent. Still nothing to be ashamed of, just like AOTC's grosses were not phenomenal like the other four SW films, but extremely good nonetheless.

Anyway money means very little at all to this kind of discussion.

You either like one better or you like the other better. You could sit here and argue until you are blue in the face, but you won't ever convince me that a merely great story is comparable to the best story ever told, i.e. the Star Wars Saga. It doesn't matter what you want to say, it's not like I'm going to change my mind. Therefore I see that this debate has little purpose.

It would be more useful to debate what quality of Star Wars fan you really are, which I would say is probably not a very good one if you think LOTR is better. If I'm supposedly a great Yankees fan, I'm not going to be rooting for the Red Sox now am I? No. I could be a great Red Sox fan and a good Yankees fan, then I'd root for the Sox in the series, but you cannot claim to be both a great Star Wars fan and a great LOTR fan if you have such a negative attitude about HALF of the Star Wars series and think that LOTR is better, lol. It's ridiculous.

There isn't any line that Anakin says in TPM that is corny whatsoever. He speaks just like a child of his age would, which is great acting. Now children may not be eloquent in their dialogue, that much I think we'd agree on, but I don't want Anakin at age 9 speaking like Shakespeare's characters. If that's what you want, well, obviously realism isn't important to you.

Realism is very important to Lucas and his dialogue is superior for that reason. It's always realistic to the character, even if that means it is not brilliant, like Jar Jar or Anakin in TPM, but it is brilliant when it SHOULD be and when it is realistic to be, i.e. Qui Gon Jinn and Yoda. You can't ask for more than that. It's fantastic.

I have little doubt that Episode III will end up being the greatest film ever made. Then again, I think when it comes down to it, the entire SW Saga is one long film with six parts and makes up the greatest "movie" ever.

 

Booya!

 

No corny anakin lines, let me replay the "whoopee!" in Watto's over and over and over, I don't hear children saying "whoopee" in a galaxy far far away, just doesn't seem too likely.

Just because I feel that the OT is the better part of the series does not mean I do not understand the stroy of the prequels. I can grasp that the characters are uncertian as to who EXACTLY is the "bad guy", we all know they don't since they cannot stop referring to that fact.

Nothing really caught me, I mean that in all seriousness too. You see Anakin is just a whiner, he son was too, ask any SW veteran, a fan that grew up with the OT, like jawafett. His dialouge may mean that he is frustrated with authority, and yes that is what ultimately leads to the darkside, but I KNOW that right now, I am just not buying the delivery, and the words. I think is because Lucas "dumbed" the dialouge down so Joe Six Pack could have an easier time comprehending everything. You may worship Lucas and that may be what clouds your vision from seeing the flaws that are very apparent in EPs I and II, its okay you are only human.

I have seen flaws like that in the LOTR series thus far, but IMO (I am entitled to have one still right?) they are not as big as the ones seen in the prequals. Sorry thats just how I feel.

I am still a fan of SW and regards as to how "great" of a fan you may think I am I will go see EP III when it opens, and I will see at least twice that day, why because I can dammit. I did with EP II and in m second veiwing I was mainly making sure I didn't miss anything, and looking for cool stuff that I may not have noticed the first time watching it. Since there are 6 flicks to pick from I will quantify my fandom on this ANH ESB and ROTJ, GREAT, TPM, blah, AOTC, ALMOST GREAT. Its my opinion. If could redo TPM Jar Jar would be gone, Anakin would be closer to 16, nothing else would be changed. You could easily substitute a no name character to the Representative from Naboo, to be the patsy in EP II giving Palpatine Power, so in all reality(something you needed so here it is)nothing would adversely be affected in the story line, and Anakins fall would seem more likely.

I love the OT, I love LOTR, this debate you engage in with me, I will not back down from.

 

Dont get me wrong i love all the dialouge in star wars

Prequel Trilogy has bad dialouge but OT doesn't?

"Why you stuck up half-witted scruffy lookin nerf herder" is better dialouge?

but regardless of the whole dialog issue

The funny thing is I think u like Star Wars better..why else would you come here and talk star wars when u could be talking about Lord of the Rings....ummmm probably because that would be boring, hence why u come here to talk about the superior film not being superior...strange

Yeah I'm being sarcastic but I defend Star Wars at all costs....

yeah its great there is this ring and they throw it in the volcano....alright...wasnt it cool when that orc died!!!!!!!!?........ummm yeah.....wasnt it cool when the animated trees looked worse than neverending story?....wasnt it cool when they didnt arrive at helms deep....wasnt it cool when Gandalf was half baked in Two Towers...wasnt it great when the dvd was packaged so well that im a fan now and ill pretend i've read the books for years......

I mean come on, personally I think the Gungans would tear up the Uruk Hai at Helms deep.....

One more though......Wasn't it cool to jump on the LOTR bandwagon

heh

but yeah I'll take Jedi over hobbit folk anyday

Oh and saying you'll never forgive George Lucas for episodes I & II is the stupidest thing i've ever heard...umm its his creation, u dont diss the storyteller....but i think its funny that so called fans do in fact put him down time after time. Its like saying i will never forgive the Lakers for not winning 4 championships in a row...i mean where is the logic...can u win 4 NBA championships in a row, and if so why are you sitting on your arse?

 

I have been reading the books for years, and never had to jump on the bandwagon so to speak.

Why am I here, hmmm I dunno maybe its because the Chapter Rep happens to my Brother and my roommate.

As to the "Well these guys can beat up those guys" arguments, those never work, and lets not get into that, because really there is no wat to prove any theroies and people will wind up getting more upset than they need to on an internet forum.

I like the OT and LOTR Equally. EP II follows a bit behind and TPM, well its not on the track. Now thats just MY opinion, and I sure as heck do not want to discount anybody's feelings towards the prequels, its a free country and thats what make it great, "One man's garbage is another man's treasure." (OH BTW thats just a saying, I am not literally callin any of the moives garbage).

I will not get into a debate about visual effects either. I will say this though. No matter which saga you point to , what the people did in each of the movies, be it SW, LOTR, or the Matrix, is great work, and MUCH better than anything I could do. Yes even Treebeard, which to me looked great, and how I had pictured him reading TTT.

Its funny to see what gets people going though. I'll stand behind all that I said, and will not take any of it back. I feel what I feel, and I know that I cannot change anybody's mind, they can if they want to.

 

I like both trilogies both are very well written and driven by real life events.
Lucas from political events both historical and modern and although Tolkien denies it, LOTR was directly influenced by the change of the world from the industrial to technical revolution.

Lucas said he never really read Tolkien but read alot of the same books. Arthurian ledgend is the big similarity I see in both films and is pretty 101 for thsi kind of writing.
Luke/Aragon/Arthur
Obi-Wan/Gandalf/Merlin
you can fill in the blanks from there.

Lucas borrowed more from Issac Asimov's Foundation Triology or Dune
orphaned farmer from a desert planet with a desity to save the universe...sound familiar

Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers from the 30's-40's
I can think of at least 20 things right off of thebat that borrowed from these serial.

Kurosowa's Hidden Fortress & Seven Samurai

western serials...lots of them

The one thing that Star Wars has IMO that LOTR doesn't have is that it truly takes you somewhere else. The PT dosn't do it as well as the OT but watching these films they really take you to another place. I think the PT has a hard time becasue of the OT and the EU novels, etc...but LOTR just feels like a hopped up version of Excalibur. Don't get me wrong I love the books(one of my favs) and I think Peter Jackson has done a great job with the movies even with the liberties they took with the story.

BTW: They do have a series of middle-earth novels, the first two were written by Tolkien and the rest by another writer who I believe studied under him. I bought my wife 5 of them and she said they are really good although are very difficult to follow. I'll post again once I look at the novels agian.

 

I agree with most of what you said, Count, but I disagree majorly with one comment.

The PT does a much better job of taking you "somewhere else" than the OT! Coruscant is the best location, IMO, and the prequels flesh out these amazing worlds in a superior way because of the technology Lucas has available now. Although I think both trilogies are fantastic at that...

As for "Lucas should have..." and "I would have..." that is just a bunch of crap. He is a lot smarter than all of us creatively, first of all, and second, it IS his story! He is free to do as he pleases. In turn, you are free to disown SW and just leave us all alone.

I don't hate people who hate the prequels. I hate people who hate the prequels and insist on being IDIOTS about it and coming to Star Wars forums to complain like little 5-year-old girls. That kind of thing just ticks me off. Now I'm not saying you are one of these people, because you aren't sitting here with the sole intention of bashing the prequels, but I am just saying that is what has ruined Star Wars forums.

Most of these same people are the morons who say that ROTJ is somehow "inferior," when actually it is in many ways the best of the OT. Everyone will immediately say, "ESB is best!" but I'd say they are both inseparable. ESB sucks without ROTJ to finish its story, and ROTJ needs the events of ESB to be so triumphant. It is one long story, anyway, I don't see the merits behind debating it in parts.

I personally don't like this whole crap about, "Oh let's talk about how good this SW movie is compared to that one." That's the dumbest waste of time imaginable. You don't criticize parts of a whole. You either criticize the whole or you don't. It's just one story, so you take it or you leave it. All of the parts are equally great, but for different reasons. One day I may be in the mood to see ESB because I love the Hoth battle, Yoda is awesome, and it's a great film with a lot of amusing witty banter between Leia and Han specifically. Then another day I may really want to see TPM because I'm in the mood for a light-hearted film, before everything goes to hell, and I want to see some of the best effects ever put to film (except for AOTC). And for a thousand other reasons, literally.

Then another day I might really want to see ROTJ, or AOTC, or ANH. It just depends on my mood that day. They are all just brilliant pieces of art and to say otherwise, wow, I think that's sad. I would be sad if I missed out on the brilliance of TPM and AOTC. People who don't appreciate those two films just aren't enjoying Star Wars to the full extent that is possible, and I think that is sad. I can't imagine what it would be like not to realize the greatness of the first two parts of this wonderful saga.

That's your problem, though, not mine. I don't have any use for debating with you as to why they are such great films because you apparently have your views set and I won't manage to change them. Especially since it is four years after TPM. Maybe when the entire saga is done, and you sit and think about it five years from now when the movies are on DVD, you will gain the appreciation for the films that any fan should have.

I would unquestionably argue that if you truly understood the story and purpose of the original trilogy, you would love the prequels, too. So it follows that anyone who doesn't love the prequels didn't truly understand the OT. No amount of disagreement will convince me otherwise.

 

ESB it the best of the the OT, it closer to real life in that nothing is perfect, and thats what makes it great, its the easiest to connect to. More people can attach to the movi because they can see more of themselves in it. Luke has family troubles, work sucks, authority gets in the way of doing what he feels is right(even if it ultimately relents), Han's life catches up to him, and it Shows how hard and how fighting the Rebellion has to do, and how difficult their campigan really is. This is my opinion.

I don't complain like a 5-year-old girl, I whine like a 25 year-old-man that has fight for everything is his life.

I don't need silver spooned pucks telling me how I should feel and what is art. Art is Monet, a Van Gogh, a Rembrant, not a Star Wars Movie.

A movie is entertianment, not art. At least thats my opinion. Let me say that again for effect. MY O-p-i-n-i-o-n (spelled it too, have to make sure you know), and thats was boards are about O-p-i-n-i-o-n-s, and I am excerising mine.

I never used the word hate in my feelings towards TPM and AOTC, I may have expressed a dislike, but to truly is a nasty thing, and I do not hate much in this world.

You made your feelings known that you think that thos films are great, and I think I have been clear as to what I feel is great, meybe we both did not see eye to eye, but at least you figured out that one cannot simply change how another person feels, it is possible, but unlikely.

 

But You dont understand, LOTRs just sucks..heh

Of course im kidding, but as far as the this person beating these people, it really wasnt meant to be taken seriously in the first place.

I don't really go to lord of the rings websites like i think there is theonering.net or something like it, but im curious if there is a message board there with a similar topic...but like I said, LOTRs is great but its not that great to talk about, its pretty straight forward. Maybe its cuz the villains are weaksauce.

Star Wars i'd got to say has the most diehard fanbase though...when a property inspires people to wait outside a theater like I myself do for countless hours with other friends and strangers you know its for something great...and Star Wars invented that.

Both have great scores though...although i feel starwars is superior in that category as well. The LOTR main theme is kinda played out...although great. As far as which Trilogy takes u to "somewhere else" Well I'd say they both do an equal job...nothing takes u more somewhere else than "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away" cue the music and scroll the text. I'm going to have to give George mad props on that.

 

I do love to see a serious DEBATE of such things...We are grown-ups who do talk, and can carry a conversation. Debating is a grown-ups way of whinning, complaining, and trying to prove a point. Not to step on anyone's toes or to point fingers, but this is a post for DEBATING. Opinions and Facts are used to base your "certain point of view"! I live, breathe, eat, dream, Star Wars! Go Frodo!