ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Besides Kirk, Sulu is the only other "big 7" of the original Enterprise to have a child.

 

Yes the double-standard annoys me most of all. No one bats an eyelash as all the heterosexual elements in films like these. But you even float the idea of LGBT, and suddenly people start complaining about it "not being necessary," or "crowbarred in" or whatever.

 

Blastaar, can I ask you a question that isn't meant in a rude way but out of geniune curiosity as to where you're coming from?

It's becoming apparent to me that what I identified as inadvertent homophobia is actually closer to being a side effect of your views around depictions of any type of sexuality at all, but on top of that, your reference to Sulu never previously being portrayed as a "sexual being" has also raised my curiosity.

I consider most people to be sexual beings, and to some degree that sexuality informs various aspects of behaviour and relationship dynamics, even non sexual ones, to a small or large degree, and I don't think that's a controversial position. Further to that, in order to write believable humans, i reckon it's a good idea for writers to be aware of the various driving forces behind characters, with libido being part of that, again to a greater or lesser degree.

So my question is, to what extent do you disagree with that, and why? I'm getting a sense that it may be due to perhaps puritanical/moral or perhaps religious objections to it, but that could be off the mark. Would just like to get an idea of where you're coming from, because I'm finding it hard to find an entry point to engage with you on this, and I'd like to because I don't think you're being deliberately homophobic

 

oooooooooh yeah I forgot about that. He had a daughter in the original timeline. Ah....then yeah the complaints were valid. That was kind of sloppy on the writer's part.

 

Hey, when a Star Wars film features the main characters talking about how expensive it is to live on coruscant and should they consider relocating to Tattooine because although it's further out it has good hyperspace routes, I'll be fully on board with the idea that Star Wars has got too close to my marriage.

But I do want your real life if it involves escaping from baddies on a regular basis

 

And if that's the case, then you should ALSO be complaining about all of the heterosexual stuff littered throughout these films as well.

 

I honestly have no issue with sexuality and quite enjoy it when its done properly. I've never liked sex or romance as necessary component to a story. I don't like the knee jerk reaction that every character on screen has to be banging someone. When i'm watching a bunch of action on screen that has nothing to do with sex, its weird to me when people start speculating on who's kissing who. I also hate when people try to force something for their own appeasement. LGBT representation is fine, but lets have it done right. Stormpilot is not LGBT being done right. That is just a group of shippers wanting their head canon to play out on screen. Nevermind that it would completely wreck one half of their ship.

As for morality. I am not a religious person. I've said several times already, that i'm not against a homosexual romance in star wars. I just said i'm against adding such things just to appease fans. I know it sounds cold, but you don't make movies to appease fans, you make them to entertain them. GL didn't start adding more races to random characters in the OT to appease "minorities". He did it after he saw that his galaxy was only populated by white people and aliens in ANH. By the time ROTJ rolled around, we had asian and black pilots flying around. The rebels were supposed to be a diverse group of people fighting against "space nazis", hence everyone being human and mostly white on the imperial side. The matrix uses this same "trope" with the agents vs zion.

In TFA we have finn and poe bro'ing it up as they escape the first order. They crash, finn thinks poe is dead, he looks sad, then he moves on. He expresses sadness again when he catches bb8 up on what happened. Finn then spends the rest of the film having meet-cutes with rey, spilling his guts to rey, screaming at the top of his lungs as he watches rey get captured, running into FO central for the sole purpose of rescuing rey, and finally getting maimed while trying to protect her from the big bad. In the middle of this he reunites with poe.

Notice the nature of their reunion. A bunch of: "bro!!! i thought you were dead! oh snap son we both made it! dude you completed my mission! you saved me from probably being tortured to death! you're a good man finn. i'm saying this as I fist bump your chest bro!. Brooo! thanks bro! good thing you were such a great pilot, but yo check this, i need your help rescuing this girl i met. Yo I gotchu, let me intro you to Gen. Leia, she's badass".

Next we get finn and rey's reunion. They have a tight and prolonged embrace even though both of them probably stink something terrible. They speak into each other's ear and have to be broken up as Han reminds them that they are still on a giant death ball controlled by the space nazi 2.0 army.

So looking at all that, we have people that think if there was any hint of a romantic subplot in TFA, it was between finn and poe. Thats nonsense. I get wanting to see LGBT representation, but whats the point if its half assed and just screws up the flow and characters in your story.

Look at the star trek folks. They sloppily made Sulu gay and were so quick to pat themselves on the back. That feels disingenuous to me. If you were serious about writing gay characters that fit naturally into your narrative, you wouldn't suddenly turn a hetero character gay. Nero's incursion is what spawned the alternate timeline. How did his incursion turn Sulu into a homosexual? If you're gonna write a gay character, you better have this in mind when you start writing the story and the character. You think about how their orientation effects their arc. Does it add anything? more importantly, does it distract from anything? Does it feel natural? Does it feel like social statement in the middle of a sci-fi fantasy epic?

Sana starros and dr. aphra are a perfect example of LGBT done right. The characters aren't even labeled as gay or bi. They simply had a romantic/fling in the past. The rest is left to us to speculate on. The movie "Platoon" had a bunch of black soldiers depicted on screen. However they were all portrayed as lazy cowards who would rather get high and run when the fighting started. That ****** movie could be called an example of black representation in film. I'd call it negative propaganda that is the exact opposite of reality.

If you can add a romantic subplot into a star wars movie that feels natural, doesn't distract, doesn't over stay its welcome, doesn't wreck your narrative, and doesn't come across like some cheap appeasement project, then lets go. At the end of the day, good star wars stories are all I care about. Don't hit me with pointless misdirects or ambiguous language to hide your obvious secret "reveal" at the end of the movie. Don't add romances because every movie needs a romance, and (as cold as it sounds) don't add gay characters just to pat yourself on the back. I dunno how anyone wouldn't find such a thing to be insulting. Black people didn't appreciate the whole thing with finn in TFA. Thats because "great you added a black main hero.....that was pretty much a foil for another hero....yeah feels like we're jogging in place.". In short, if you're gonna do it, do it right.

 

Gotcha.
Just so we're on the same page - I'm definitively not advocating gay people in Star Wars from the perspective of shoehorning it into Finn/Poe

 

Well I'm going to have to disagree on this. Finn and Rey have a clear foundation that can be built on as Finn is clearly shown to be attracted to Rey. He goes out of his way to try to impress her, asks if she has a boyfriend, gives her a whole dialogue about her looking at him like no one else had and is clearly shown to be enjoying the hug she gives him on Starkiller much like any straight guy would. Those are clear romantic undertones on his part that have been used in film probably since it's inception. Finn and Poe do not have that same foundation, especially not on Finn's part. He wasn't the one that gave another guy his jacket or bit his lip. There is no part in the film that Finn shows the same attraction to Poe as he does to Rey. Poe being gay would make sense but not Finn.

 

I know, its just that entire outlook is what i'm not cool with. That and big pointless romances.

 

With StormPilot they are not going to have a naked intense bonking session inside an X-Wing. They will be just an accepted couple that's it. The raunchy stuff is for tumblr. LucasFilm would do this relationship professionally and with care.

 

Love and romance bite.

It's time for a pure "friends with benefits" aspect in a GFFA.

 

Heh, this. As far as I am concerned, get out the shoe horn, take kid gloves off of yer ham hands, and start making it happen.

Star Wars already requires me to take my brain off the hook, I really don't need lucasfilm to be too finessey about things.

 

My issue with it would be the total contradiction as far as the characters as they were established in an entire film.

Pro Scoundrel just so you know, my mother, continuing her streak of classifying robots as "gay" (her first being HAL9000), has always maintained that 3PO is "gay". Don't ask me how. I've asked her many times how a robot with no "equipment" can be gay, but she remains convinced.

 

I love Finn/Rey but Finn/Poe can be great too

 

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Han and Leia romance in ESB? No problem at all if it's your toilet break for that film too. Just curious.

 

So we can take it from being a fun fantasy-adventure and turn it into every other thing that we see in film and TV?

 

You cant win these arguments. There is no winning, only gaining in perspectives.

 

but Blastaar is right. Kathleen said they tried to do something with finnpoe and it didn't work, they would have had to change too much and i wouldn't call her a liar. I suspect Finn's arc isn't open enough to add a romance this late in the game, regardless of who it's with. same with rey and kylo. The problem is it takes a response this large for LF to consider having a prominent gay romance and that's not cool. Like I said, Finn can still be bisexual and Poe can still be gay but it's less of an impact because there are no other major characters with whom they could showcase that, so it would be more a nod than anything. I say Poe and Snap should make out in front of an x-wing for no reason, just have a shot of that and i'll take it, I'll be the happiest gay. in fact, all the characters should have an explicitly gay moment, rey and rose make eyes at each other, Luke talks sweetly about his first boyfriend Biggs Darklighter, hux and kylo I think kids are into that