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Senate European ultranationalists!

Discussion in 'Community' started by Lord Vivec, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    The New Deal did not only help "white folks." It did help blacks significantly, which started the shift of African-Americans from the Republicans to the Democrats. In order to keep Southern Democrats on board it was not intended to address the racial problems of the country including Jim Crow and other official and unofficial segregation, so of course it failed to raise black people up to the same level as their white counterparts.

    That said, I agree that ignoring racial factors in poverty is stupid and ignoring them only benefits the dominant groups. There's no reason the left can't fight for both economic and racial justice as it has for a long time.

    EDIT: From the conversation I thought this was yet another rehash of the "identity politics" argument in the U.S. politics thread. Oh well.
     
  2. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001

    The black populations were largely cut out of jobs where there were quotas (whites were hired first), and were not allowed union memberships -- which was the primary generational wealth generation during the New Deal era. As well, New Deal policies for blacks were simply not enforced in the South, and no one pressed the issue.

    So, you'll forgive me if I look at the overall rather than the smaller level of African-American participation, and benefit from, the New Deal.

    Ender's made it clear -- 100% clear, mind you -- that he's absolutely in favor of policies that life people out of poverty, even if it just works for whites, because whites are still the plurality of poor in the country. He absolutely doesn't care about any political endgames that help deal with racial issues as a function of economic policy like this.
     
  3. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    No, dp4m. I've just countered that the distinct racial narrative in your country applies only when dealing with your country because, you know, unique and bespoke historic circumstances. I don't know why you guys continually insist upon shoehorning your experiences onto other cultures as if universal.

    Similarly I clearly stated, without ambiguity or inference, that as a policy approach it would probably have a stronger effect on non-whites, but it's ok, I understand you need to prove your non-racist credentials as part of modern American liberal identity politics.

    In post #768 I made it clear my commentary was about Europe. I did not attempt to rope America into this; you indicated it failed in America which we understand but don't care about in the context of this discussion. You have a population of people who were effectively made both stateless and isolated from any historic culture beyond slavery.

    There is dissonance between the historic nature of American identity; the mythology on the one hand elevates the American up to a higher level, a benevolent level, and the history or practicality on the other denigrates it as a callous person. That seems to create a disconnect which is an impediment to effective policy making, and to moving forwards.

    Europe, conversely, does not have this. Slavery by and large was something done in the colonies but not domestically (as in, generally but not exclusively) and so Europe is not home to generations of freed slaves seeking recompense and restitution for their suffering. There is no comparison here, as the migrant populations in Europe are usually motivated by socio-economic factors, such as improved quality of life and better guarantees of rights by the state/s. There is a significant presence from former colonies, in France in particular; but there are also simply questions of cultural alignment vs cultural clash. For example, the Dutch - my people - had significant influence in South Africa but very little in Northern Africa. If you were to look at the people concerned about immigrants and their socio-economic effect in Holland, the group most commonly singled out in my research are Moroccans, where there is no historic colonial connection.

    They are, in other words, apples and oranjes.

    Since we are specifically discussing the non-American context, I fail to see what bringing the US' history up has to do. I agree with Watto, identity politics is an enemy of social cohesion. Unfortunately I think identity politics is too strong in the American context so we'll probably disagree on this point.
     
  4. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Oh, I'm sorry, does it bother you when talking about Americocentrist theories in a Euro-thread? :p
     
  5. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I will fite u irl
     
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  6. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    In case anyone is interested, I just found out that Stelios Kouloglou's documentary "Neonazi: The Holocaust of Memory" is available with English subtitles on YouTube (link).

    The documentary is about a village called Distomo near Delphi, where the Nazis conducted a large-scale massacre in 1944 in retaliation for partisan activity. The number of votes garnered by Golden Dawn in this village in 2012 and 2015 was unfortunately not negligible at all. Kouloglou conducted interviews with high-school children and WWII survivors, plus the son of a notorious Nazi collaborator, to show how sweeping the history of "domestic" Nazism under the carpet has contributed to the rise of Golden Dawn.

    I don't think that Kouloglou is a particularly good journalist or director and the documentary has many shortcomings, but there's some very interesting stuff in there and it's definitely worth watching.
     
    Gamiel and Darth Guy like this.
  7. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    Bring out the French dictionaries everyone; if you're going to read one thing about the Front National this month, it has to be this.

    The long and the short of it: a group of FN people, including deputy chairman Florian Philippot, went for dinner in a restaurant in Strasbourg and posted a picture on Twitter. Woe betide them, it was a couscous restaurant. Cue an intense Twitter debate about the merits of (leftist, globalist, islamofascist) couscous vs (patriotic) sauerkraut. This includes arguments about the foreign origin of tomatoes and potatoes as well as Algeria being part of France before Nice.

    #couscousgate was a trending topic on French Twitter yesterday. I kid you not.
     
  8. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    People only hate foreign Nazis. And even then, only when they're being targeted by said foreign Nazis. When the hypernationalist fanatics are your own, people really don't care as much.
     
  9. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Of course, they didn't say a word about their preferred side dish being a pretty clear indication that the ElsaƟ is ethnically far more German than French, but hey, that's beside the point.
     
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  10. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001


    Aux armes, citoyens...
     
  11. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    I'm sick and tired of the "oh no, we're not fascists, we're just concerned citizens" crowd.

    There was a far-right nationalist rally in Poland for Independence Day that attracted some 60,000 people. Some not-fascist slogans and banners apparently included "Pure Poland, white Poland", "White Europe" and "Clean Blood" (BBC link, Politico link). Oh, and one not-fascist dude told Polish state TV that he was marching "to get the Jews out of power" (source).

    But yeah, demonstrating alongside such people doesn't make you a fascist, not a fascist at all. No, really, why would anyone think that?

    PS: Meanwhile, some big-shot far-right politician in the Czech parliament told another MP, among other things, that "Jews, gays and Roma should be gassed" (source). The 1930s are very fashionable these days.
     
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  12. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
  13. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    So what does this say about Western civilization? That everything we've been through in the 20th century, when we fought against Nazism and Communism...it turns out people weren't in it for democracy at all, but rather for shallow nationalism?
     
  14. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    It's a depressing thought.

    But they're not everybody.

    Some people were sincerely against Nazism, against fascism, against Soviet-style totalitarian communism, against racism, etc. And still are today.
     
  15. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Yeah, the Poles always get something of a free pass as victims of the Nazis, but anti-Semitism certainly has a history there. And the current government is a disgrace, on a par with Hungary.
     
  16. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2000
    The recent elections in Czech Republic did give more voice to populist nationalist and anti-immigration parties, sadly...

    I am, however, pleased to see that the recent local elections in Slovakia dealt a pretty big blow to both the ruling party ("social" and "democratic" in name only, an embodiment of blatant corruption and lying) and the neo-nazi party that managed to gain control of one regional council and leadership in the previous elections. They were ousted in the most spectacular fashion. Most seats were won by independents and representatives of the opposition parties (progressive centre-right and liberal). There is some hope for my country, yet...
     
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