Lit Fate of the Jedi issues...

I always felt Conviction was the weakest of the last three books personally.

 

It was really weird, but not the weirdest in Star Wars, looking at you crystal star.

I did not like that she obeyed the command and killed 'luke' and then that was it command over, nothing to see here, no exploration of Mara changing sides. I read (audio books) that too and I felt her personality jumped, rather than change.

It's like a car crash, you can't look away.

Trust me this book will show you the truth of Luke's Jedi order and Daala's conflict with them.

 

I can understand not liking Callista, I'm not a big fan of hers either, but ouch, talk about a horrible fate. She goes looking for a way to get her Force powers back and end up like that. This is why I never liked the Del Rey novels, quite frequently they dug up an old character just to kill them off.

And wow, the Jedi are caught completely off-guard and trapped in their Temple, right when their supplies are running low, and the only way to get more stuff in is.... rats? Seriously? This should be easy compared to operating during the height of the Empire. But then everybody has gotten way more stupid after Vision of the Future.

Or maybe its just part of Coruscant's nature as a black hole. Time moves very slowly there, and no one escapes it. Even after you think Jaina has left the planet to go help Luke (but only ends up stuck fighting Ship in an obviously unimportant battle), then she gets sent back to Coruscant. You thought Jaina would actually get to do something? Ha, not in a post-NJO novel. And was this the book with a certain scene with her and Jag? I forget if that was here or in a later book.

Spoiler

Like Jaina wants to borrow the Imperial fleet for something but can't tell Jag? Which is a really stupid thing to ask, its not like that's a personal favor, that's a big thing to ask a head of state, even if they are engaged, then she breaks up with him, but then he finds out the circumstances so they probably un-breakup and yeah, its just stupid.

Oh yeah, this was the first time the Bwua'tu lawyer showed up, right? Talk about a big Bwua'tu family. Not to mention Jaina is so helpless she can't find a lawyer on her own, despite the Jedi actually living on Coruscant, so she asks Jag, who is supposed to be living on Bastion by now. But then its hard to tell the Empire isn't running things. Daala's POVs are still just... dissonant. Like at least the Tribe are just outright evil, we're supposed to believe Daala doesn't see how bad her actions look? Either have her be proud of her methods or not, its just silly otherwise.

This is what I meant by Luke being stuck as the Tribe's babysitter- they're mostly a bunch of brats rather than Sith lords, but still dangerous. There was one line that caused a bit of a stir years ago, when Luke said "Compassion is for those who deserve it" which was... pretty badly written. I didn't like it, but it was probably a sign of Luke's frustration with his so-called allies. They don't listen to him when he tells them be careful around black holes, backstab him during the big battle and then Luke doesn't just kick them off the planet.

On the bright side you've reached the halfway point. On the downside, there's still four books to go and they're some of the worst ever.

 

Yep, (reminds me a bit of the new movies)

I mean in Betrayal they even comment that the jedi know a lot of ways to stay hidden and keep out of sight from government, so yeah. I would say the stupidity started with HoT (while in NJO it varied) and then went off a cliff with the Denningverse.

Jaina, is just the worst, just selfish and really only thinking about herself (rather Sith like honestly)

Eh a lawyer uncle isn't really 'big', but of all the members of Bwua'tu's family the lawyer is the one who least deserves death.

Daala is meant to be a grey character, too bad her actions are blackest evil.

The Tribe do some stuff and they got killed, Luke should have said something like "I can't save people from themselves" rather then just "I only care about people who I think matter" (though that is in keeping with his Denningverse character)

Yeah, these books are the worst, killed my interest (a fair amount at least) in Star Wars books.

 

haha, well like I said, Crystal Star ranks a very close 2nd for me

I wish it had been shown more too, but if I remember right, at the time of those books (before prequel books involving her) the indication was she was sort of shielded from the galaxy by the Emperor, so she didn't have much understanding of the galaxy except the Emperor was her hero and Luke killed him, so she wanted to kill Luke, and she never really was a Sith by belief, she just was an assassin with Force abilities, so once she realized that Luke didn't deserve death, that the Emperor did, and what with her working with Karrde (a relative good guy) it pretty much explained why she was able to just "switch sides"....her biggest thing is she's too practical which often goes against the Jedi compassion thing

true about the fate, it does suck for her, like I said, I just didn't want a reminder of COTJ at all, and you're spot on with the bringing back just to kill, what a crappy thing to do

I sorta thought the rats thing was weird too, and also, agreed, just being trapped like that makes the Jedi look incompetent

you aren't kidding my good sir, what a waste of even taking her off Coruscant, and that fight was unimportant and she basically got her tail handed to her also, great job screwing up the one thing Jaina is awesome at, PILOTING

yea, I just shook my head when she asked that, I'm like, "of course Jag can't give you that, Jaina, are you an idiot, what would happen to him the minute the Moffs/GA found out"

that last line, 100% correct, how can the authors not see that

funny enough, that line passed right over me, but it is a big non-Luke thing to say, and these Sith are super dangerous yet still idiots too it seems, guess they go hand in hand with the current Jedi Order

ugh the new movies, I think this was the real reason I started reading the NJO and onward of the EU....looking for anything to grab that wasn't the horribleness of the new movies

yep yep yep

sad but true, and I hate it, she WAS my favorite of the Solos, and sadly I accepted her being that far too long hoping she'd grow up....nevermind she's in her 30s now and still the same

exactly, what were the writers thinking?

 

haha I reverse it lol

See I didn't get that impression that she was anything other than the Emperors assassin, I also don't like the idea that she 'was never really dark to start with'. Either have Luke redeemer or don't. I honestly feel like it takes away from her original arc from Heir (she is rejecting the Empire and his world view to form her own), but if she was never dark to start with then, well it seems like redemption can only happen with people who were 90% light to start with.

I don't honestly know. Truthfully I think they weren't thinking, like at all, ever for any part of this story, but you will see.

it gets worse

 

well I think evil/dark side is determined by actions not Sith beliefs, so I do believe Mara's actions were dark side bc she had learned to feed off dark side emotions and used her skills to assassinate/murder people, so thus she was a Darksider if not a Sith, and she had to learn to ignore those emotions, that's what she had to do (which is why I think she struggles with the compassion aspect even until she dies) in order to be redeemed, but I also think it's why she was able to be redeemed "easier" if you want to call it that, bc it wasn't changing a whole religious philosophy of life for her which can be crippling for awhile

I'd definitely disagree with the 90% light argument simply off of Vader's redemption, but maybe you just mean in the books, if that's the case, maybe so....

 

That was my first thought, but then later books walked that back by say 'she only killed bad people and already was grey/light before she meet Luke'

Yeah I was talking more about the books

started vortex yet?

 

Speaking of Jaina asking jag for a fleet-Jacen asked Tenel Ka for a fleet and she only demanded he "stay the night" and they weren't formally engaged. So apparently in Star Wars letting your lover/betrothed/spouse borrow your military assets for whatever they need them for is completely fine.

 

Well I think it might also be the differences between the two nations. Tenel Ka was the absolute ruler (with her dad and his allies to help) while Jag has a much less stable position.

 

2 chapters in....liked the action in Jaina's fight, but b/t the Sith pirates and Vex locking Ben in a room, sounding more like how Sith act than last book which is why I think Luke is too trusting

funny thought, I wonder if Denning liked that Golden took a beat from him and killed off Bwua'tu last book, or if he's mad he didn't get to do it since Denning loves to be the one to pull that trigger

that is 2 way different situations.....
1) what trouble was Tenel Ka going to get into considering she is an absolute ruler and it was against a known enemy
2) Jag is just hanging on as the Empire's leader while trying to negotiate the Empire back into the GA and Jaina wants to use them to fight a battle that the GA doesn't even know about and for him to give them to the Jedi who the GA is having problems with...….

also, I wouldn't say it is completely fine, I don't think anybody else liked that he did it that way, IU or OOU, it just happened, plenty of things happen that are not fine

 

Denning always rights the Sith as more eeeeeevil then others, I feel it makes them less interesting, as at least Goldens Sith have something to them with Denning they are all eeeevil back stabers who kill each other (or just anyone) at the drop of a hat, while Goldens were backstabbers, they were smarter (generally)

You will see, Denning is in fine form in this book.

 

Regarding trading military resources the exact circumstances between the jag Jaina incident and the Jacen Tenel Ka incident may not be all that similar-the general principle is the same-acquiring military assets on the basis of a personal relationship with a head of state who is de jure in command of those assets.

It may not be common necessarily-but it does apparently occur as these example show, and it seems to me to be a massive ethical violation.

 

you don't think context makes a difference??

but looking at it from what you say, I don't think anyone is arguing that Jacen's was really okay and Jaina's wasn't, we're just pointing out that there is a difference in them which is why it's easier for Tenel Ka to agree to it where Jag HAS to tell Jaina no, I hated that Jacen did that and I hated that Jaina did it too

of course it's a massive ethical violation

 

I never really saw that Golden's Sith were smarter, she just didn't let them act like Sith are apt to do and that made Luke look "smart" when trusting them worked out, but trusting Sith NEVER works out except apparently in Golden's book....

 

Well Tenel Ka's position may be legally absolute but she has to worry about the anti Jedi Hapan Nobillty, her scheming grandmother, and probably other anti Tenel Ka factions at court, as well as potentially competing claimants.

Jag of course doesn't have de jure absolute power.

 

Well Goldens Sith feel like they would be able to from a functioning society, while Denning feels like a larger group of rule of two sith, so it does not flow.

Goldens Sith remind me of TOR Sith, while Denning reminds me of Jedi Pricne level stuff.

I know why Denning writes his bad guys so eeevil, because his heroes are sociopathic murders so the bad guys have to look even worse.

 

Eh the Jedi act nearly as bad as Caedus does in Invincible.

 

and I'm pretty sure everyone hated that about them too

 

I feel like they get worse (if in different ways) in Vortex and later.

Also I think the Sith pirates in this are One Sith rather than Lost Tribe Sith. (too many Sith, why not just use the One Sith? and make Jacen Krayt)

Spoiler

what with Krayt all but telling luke his name and address later

 

Spoiler

I never had an issue with Krayt's origins in the old Jedi order, and Jacen is a different character with different ends. And Krayt doesn't tell who he is, just that he is present and that Luke "doesn't know about his Sith order" in an almost mocking "oh I have it on you" sort of way"

Spoiler

.

 

Spoiler

It's dumb and just another way to bring back someone the author likes rather than a better character, though that was not entirely his fault, Denning picked the worst effort ending.

Also his actions here completely expose himself to Luke, which goes against their stated goal with using Jacen.

 

Spoiler

I have no problem with A'Sharad Hett and honestly making Jacen the villain of legacy would not have appealed to me in the slightest. As for apocalypse, it was the fault of the editors at Lucasfilm who felt the need to tie everything together.

 

Spoiler

I didn't mind him, but it struck me as really weird that a minor character from the PT era, was not only alive (this became a major issue as legacy went on), but had also become a super powerful leader of the Sith and the galaxy, it was never explained how he did it, how he start his Sith and how they grew.

Mean while we saw Jacens fall and knew his power (not to mention his connection to the Vong) and could have been a great character.

Well Denning wrote it and honestly aside from having a character from Legacy (which Denning I think wanted to ignore) it's not any worse than the rest of Dennings writing, since Tatooine Ghost.

 

Spoiler

A'Sharad Hett's fall was pretty well documented, and we know he apparently had at least 30 followers by the LOTF era(where he got them is unknown) as it is Jacen should never have gone dark in my opinion. Anyway we should probably keep spoilers to a minimum.