For Detractors: How would you make Clone Wars more...mature?

Everyone else remember how completely terrible that show was in every respect? Because I do. I subjected myself to at least 15 episodes of that series over the years, and it was the most boring, soap-operaish sci-fi ever. It was completely horrible. I thought Voyager was bad, but at least it had Jeri Ryan. DS9 was way worse. Somehow that thing lived on forever like a cockroach in a humid environment because Star Trek fans were so desperate just to see anything with the Star Trek logo on it they would watch Days of Our Deep Space Lives. Ugg, please don't ever mention that show again, you just ruined my day at least, maybe the rest of the week.

 

If by soap-operaish you mean it's the only Trek show to REALLY develop its characters and plot lines over the course of the series...

Maybe it's different watching the whole thing over the course of a year on DVD (as I did) as opposed to having it take seven years on TV.

Also, the giant space battle in the DS9 series finale >>>> the Battle of Coruscant in RotS.

 

Bowen, you officially have no taste. Did you even watch the Dominion War arc? Introduction of the Jem'Hadar? It seems like you only watched the First Season. 'Boring, Soap Operaish Sci Fi ever"? Hello, you just basically described Star Wars.

 

Take another look at DS9 now that you are older. It had the most heart of any of the ST shows, the richest backdrop and the plots are so relevant right now its not even funny. Also, it had the most developed, fleshed out characters of any of the shows. The series were a bit darker in tone, but then they would throw in a clever adventure episode here in there. While most of the other shows were a variation on the original series with Kirk, DS9 dared to be different. And while that doesn't make it great, the stories, setting and characters certainly did.

All of the writers there went on to do great things after, such as Ron Moore, who is working on Battlestar right now, a show that has a lot of similiarites to DS9.

 

I liked DS9, TNG and Voyager equally.
But, back on topic, I wanna see Jedi dying onscreen, not:
[Jedi falls down]
Jedi:Noo, noo, no!
[Camera pans up, over jedi's head, to villian]
[villian shoots/slices, we hear scream offscreen]
That's what I'd like to avoid.

 

I'm sorry when did Star Wars become soley about the Jedi? I seem to be seeing alot of posts on several different threads where the Jedi Love has gotten out of control. This series is about the Clone Wars and it is going to tell lots of different stories from what I understand, from lots of different angles. Somehow though it has become a Tales of the Jedi like atmoshpere. This thread seems to be about what would you do it improve the show to make it more mature and the overwhelming opinion is that it needs more Jedi, more Jedi Battles, more Jedi powers, more death, more Grevious and more lightsaber duels. Sorry folks this isn't tales of the Jedi. Yes the Jedi are central command figures in the GAR but if you make them the central focal point then you aren't doing the Clone Wars you are doing the Fall of the Jedi.

SuperSaiyaMann12

I have noticed in other threads that you don't care for Karen Traviss because in your opinion she hates Jedi. I don't think that is the case I think she writes stories that are real. The Jedi are trained peace keepers and warriors but their order never focused training on large scale group tactics more one on one combat and as such some make poor generals. She focus's on that, the resentment men in combat feel towards ineffectual commanders. She doesn't glorify the Jedi in such a way that they become cartoonish such as in GT microseries. If Mace Windu could signle handedly take out thousands and thousands of SBDs then why did so many die at Genosis? There are a lot of fans who are into character development in Star Wars and not Jedi supermen. Some of my favortie characters are the Rogues, Wedge, Corran(before becoming a Jedi) and the clones themselves. I like stories about thier individuality and thier struggle with what they are(basically slaves) and the moral struggle between the good of the republic and the good of the individual.

So what would I do to enhance the show for a more mature viewer? Nothing really, making it more mature menas losing viewers and I think that is a mistake. It is plenty mature as it is. To many people are getting caught up on labeling it and are missing some good story telling and solid artwork. This is the Clone Wars so show the battles, be they space fights(awesome) or ground engagements(Hoth battle got me hooked) and maybe look at some of the forces joining the CIS and thier reasons. I don't need to see Jedi Power battles, I have games for that, I want to see a story driven by real characters something like saving private ryan. The men who fight in the trenchs. I f you are a huge Jedi lover then I don't think this is for you and maybe you should look else where for your fix. ok I am ranting so thats it.

 

At the very latest by the Prequel Trilogy. It's all about Anakin(and to a lesser extent Luke), according to Lucas.

She basically said she hates them in Star Wars on Trial when she wrote that she was rooting for the Clones in Order 66.

Except that's wrong. The Jedi have fought in multiple full-scale wars before, and would still have those tactics. Of course, those tactics wouldn't be worth very much on Geonosis given how outnumbered they were.

Jedi and character development aren't mutually exclusive.

Really? It's been fairly Jedi-centric thus far.

 

Master Starwalker

You are taking the whole post out of context which is something that happens with message boards since sometimes the authors intent is taken wrong. The intent of my thought process is to say that the overwhelming opinion of how to make the series better is to have more Jedi. Look at the first page of the posts on this thread and everyone has some mention of more Jedi.

To address your comments on my remarks.

The PT is about Anakin's rise and eventual fall, yes he is a Jedi and there is more Jedi due in fact to the time frame before the purge. Yet the Jedi are not the central figures. My comments are targeted at the trend people have to make the Clone War about the Fall of the Jedi. They want Tales of the Jedi and this isn't it.

On her website Traviss addresses her supposed hatred of the Jedi in her FAQ's. I won't go into if she really hates them or is tired of the question and just responds yes I do. I tend to believe her because I have read the books and I dont see hatred just realism. She also sees the other side of the coin that the clones are bred as slaves and that early in the war even the Jedi had little compasion for them or thier plight so I can see why someone would cheer for them after being treat as second class citizens

Fighting in individual combat is vastly different then leading men. If you are refer to battling the Mandolorians in the battle of galidraan. Still not the same thing an army of jedi fighting with thier skills different then leading men in battle. Several sources have made this point a valid one. As to the outnumbered status on Genosis, again if Mace Windu could destroy thousands of SBD's on Dantoinne by himself why not on Genosis?

Character development: Again this is my respnse to others saying they want to see they Jedi powers like Windu and shatterpoint and so on. They don't care for Plo Koon taking to clones or Anakin and Asohka caring about thier troops they want Jedi powers

The Jedi-centric comment just isn't so. All three contained Jedi but it dealt with the complex relationship evolving between the clone troops and thier generals. Yoda teachs them despite thier appearance they are all individuals. Plo Koon tells his troops that he wouldn't trade his life for thiers and in the end of the latest one Anakin must choose between his men and the mission and ultimately chooses his men. The Jedi aren't the center of the story it is the interaction between them and thier troops.


Again my post was in the spirit of there is more to a GFFA then just Jedi and Sith battles. I would like to see more stories about non jedi then Jedi POwer battles. I hope that clears some of it up

 

Master_Starwalker

Good discussion and I am glad that my comments weren't taken as flame fodder but my own point of view. I did want to address one point of yours though.

She 'sees' that but, that makes absolutely no sense given the nature of the Jedi Order. The Jedi are an order established to defend peace and justice and who believe that all life is connected through the Force. The idea that they won't care about what happens to the clones is ludicrous.

Again several sources including the Phantom Menace show that while the jedi are peace keepers and who believe that all life is connected through the force, they sheldom move against the established norm. The republic outlawed slavery and yet the Jedi made no attempts to free Shmi Skywalker or other slaves in the outer rim. In Zahn's novels most noteably Outbound Project the Jedi come across as arogant and often time care more about thier own sense of right and wrong due to the force then whether thier actions are right or wrong.It is one of those grey areas that alot of EU authors have brought up and alot of fans dismiss because A) they believe only GL can create canon or B) it doesn't fit thier ideal image of the Jedi order. This is why I have said the Jedi Love has gotten out of control. People are unwilling to except that Jedi are not perfect and are failable and it becomes a problem.

I have begun to notice similarities between the way the Jedi order is developing in the CW and assorted EU novels and the rise and fall of the Templars. Both are clositered orders that were founded on the premise of helping the weak and championing Justice but after many many years the order has begun to fail, the common people turn on them, thier original purpose is lost and basically the core begins to rot. It is an interesting contrast.

 

Oh, the Jedi definitely weren't perfect and I think they made a mistake in confining their mandate only to worlds within the Republic(though from a practical perspective I can see why they did it.)

The Outbound Flight point is flawed imo as the novel focuses on Jorus C'Boath who is far more arrogant than your average Jedi. The side point about the Jedi being more concerned with what's right and wrong according to the Force I agree with, but that's not a bad thing. The Force provides the Jedi with a way to externally and objectively measure what's right and wrong. That's not to say I think an internal morality shouldn't be cultivated because a part of the Prequel Order's problem was that they were losing their ability to touch the Force and as such they were less able to hear what it was 'telling' them.

I don't dismiss the idea that the Jedi are flawed as the films make that point, but the EU goes too far from time.

The Knights Templar point is interesting, and I believe that Lucas brought them up as inspiration for the Jedi's fall at one point. I think the idea of a fully corrupted Jedi Order could have worked, but that Lucas didn't succeed in showing it. The films show a Jedi Order which is the last moral institution in a dying and corrupted Republic. Much of the EU reinforces this picture, but you get the occasional source which demonizes the Jedi.

 

Simple.
1. Put Ahsoka into clothes befitting a Jedi fighting in a inter-galactic war. Get rid of the tube top, and give her armor LIKE ALL OF THE MALE JEDI!
2. Next, make the droids have less personality and spend more time on good dialog or story development.

 

Why should Ahsoka wear armor when Ayala nor Luminara does? In fact, they're not even wearing Jedi Garbs! I find it picking on Ahsoka just because she's never been in previous canon!

 

Um, no.

"It's unthinkable! There has not been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic!"

When was that again? Over four thousand years ago?

I don't think there's any Jedi in the order who has lived long enough to remember that.

So in other words: You're wrong.

You must be thinking of the KotOR era.

 

Hence the words "MALE JEDI."
Anyway, Aalya is not 13 years old. She isn't a Padawan. She is MATURE.

But I just think it feels wrong for a 13 year old to wear such a non-protective garment while fighting a war. Once she gets more "experience" she can wear what she pleases. But not as a 13 year old Padawan.

I think TCW is quite mature in it's plots and storylines. It is just the droids need a little toning down to appeal to some adults. (Either way, I'm very very very happy with the series)

 

Probably because Tatooine was outside their jursidiction. Another way to put it would be that the Jedi weren't authorized to start a war between the Republic and the Hutts.

If you're thinking of the original formation of the Republic, try again. Hint: Obi-Wan in ANH. The full-scale war quote likely refers to the Reformation of the Republic, circa 1000 BBY.

 

Stark Hyperspace War anyone? I belive both Plo Koon and Qui-Gon fought in that. There were wars fought, but none of the mwere full-scale, invloving the entire Republic, they were proably just between other planets, so it's easy to see where the Jedi could get battle experience from.