General Greivous Inconsistency

It just doesn't match up.

When watching episodes 20-25 of the Clone Wars cartoon, General Greivous is merely unstoppable. Much too powerful for any Jedi or Trooper, and takes out Jedi left and right all over the cartoons.

Then, you watch him in Episode III, and its almost like watching a completely different character.

Take the scene when Obi-Wan, Anakin, and the Chancellor are taken to Greivous on his ship for instance, he tries to run when they take hold of their lightsabers instead of just taking them out, the character in the clone wars seemed like there was no need to try to escape, he'd just kill 'em.

And NOTHING is mentioned about why he even has lightsabers on his belt, definitely nothing about him being a "Jedi Killing Machine." Just that he has a 'lightsaber collection.'

Just seems like a big inconsistency to me, and the characters in the cartoon and movie don't match up.

 

Thats because he gets injured in the chest very badly, causing him to cough, and he's not like he used to be.

 

Mace did crush his chest. He has fear in him. And Dooku says he must retreat in the cartoon also.

 

Understandable. And very good points.

However, Mace Windu's force powers in the cartoon seems a little much after watching Episode III as well. I understand it's a completely different argument, but the Jedi Master can wipe out thousands of battle droids with a massive force push, but uses nothing except saber tactics when dueling with the Chancellor. No force usage whatsoever.

It may just be that the cartoon team were given too much creative power, and made the Jedi and Greivous seem much more powerful than they actually are.

 

The power of the Jedi did seem extremely exaggerated in the cartoon.

I didn't like that.

 

but the Jedi Master can wipe out thousands of battle droids with a massive force push, but uses nothing except saber tactics when dueling with the Chancellor. No force usage whatsoever

Ever wonder why a Jedi can Force push a droid at will, but not a Sith? Hmmm.

!snap

 

I wondered about that as well. Grivious seemed more than a match for any Jedi in the cartoon.

Was that big blob creature Obi Wan beat an earlier version of him?

 

Durge and Grievous are not connected in any way.

!snap

 

I don't understand the Obi-wan is a "master of defense" argument.

Either one knows how to use a sword or one doesn't. This isn't basketball, this is essentially, fencing. You can be bad at defense in the sense that you leave yourself open and over-extend yourself often. But how is it that you can either:

A) Master the use of the sword so well that you can take opponents apart, and that you can recognize the most appropriate attack for any attempted counter/defense but can't use that same knowledge to read how your opponent is attacking you?

or

B) Understand opponents attacks so well that you can always read them, use the correct parry, and keep yourself well-guarded, and yet you have no ability to use that extensive knowledge of offense against your opponent?

On a broader note, why would someoen even develop an exclusively defensive style? What would be the purpose? The Jedi don't use lightsabers for sport--they use them for battle. That involves defeating your opponent. There would be no purpose in having an exclusively defensive style. Especially with a sword. Why not use something that's actually useful for defense, like shield, if defense is your aim?

 

Lightsabers are used for defense. Not attack.

 

"...why would someoen even develop an exclusively defensive style?"

Obi-wan practices Soresu, Form III.

Form III
known as Soresu, this was a lightsaber dueling technique developed by the Jedi Knights, after blaster weapons became the normal weapon of choice among criminals and underworld beings.

How often do the Jedi encounter other lightsabers? Only Jedi, Dark Jedi, or Sith carry them. Why not learn a style of combat that totally fits with your believe system and is a perfect fit with everyday life.

Also, the EP 3 Vis dictionary says that the key to Obi-wan's strength with the blade is how he can "put himself at the center of the storm" and use his patience to wait for an opening.

Sounds pretty right to me.

 

Jedi fight with sabers when they are attacked, they don't just attack others. (Yes,yes, Anakin, Kyp Durron, Ganner Rhysode and others are exceptions. Hot headed morons.)

 

I don't understand the Obi-wan is a "master of defense" argument.


It's not that hard.
Think of it as a focus thing. If you're attacking me, then all your attention has to be focused on wining, killing, and not getting killed. The very nature of attacking is to leave yourself open, if only for a moment, because the payoff is worth the risk.

Now switch to me, defending only. All of my concentration is simply on deflecting your blows. I never leave myself open because I never attack. In this event, you and I are playing two completely seperate games, you're playing to win, I'm playing to stalemate.

As for why someone would do that, I guess it fits with the Jedi idea of no attack, of finding a better way. In our above duel, eventually you're going to realize you can't win, and you may be open to a more peaceful solution to our conflict.

As for your final question, about why don't they use a shield instead, I don't know. I've wondered the same thing myself. Just chalk it up to another one of the Jedi's hypocrisies I guess.

 

He is literally dying inside so there is NO WAY he could do all that stuff he did in the CW series. His demise in ROTS is just as it should be.

Look at it this way. Ob1 had learned from all the other Jedi that fought him before and therefore had the largest advantage over Grievous than any other Jedi. He knew that Grievous used fear and intimidation as his primary weapon, so OB1 showed no fear. He already knew Grievous' fighting style was unorthodox and he knew he could expect him to fight with 4 lightsabers. All of the above surprised the Jedi before and caught them off guard which is why he seemed more powerful in CW. On top of that, Grievous was already severly wounded from Mace's force crush. Even after all this Grievous was still a formidable force and was NOT easily killed by Ob1. Im sure if Ob1 were the first Jedi to encounter him, it would been much more difficult for Ob1 to beat him.

 

mace also jacked GG up in obsession 5 and he had to be carried away. so, whether you like the comics leading into or the carton, either way. thats why some people dont care about the EU at all.

 

Obi-Wan using 'defensive' style doesn't mean he's just defending himself. It means he is the reactor in a duel. IE the ATTACKER is the one making the initial action and the DEFENDER reacts to that. Using a defensive style is the intelligent approach such that it allows you to adapt your style to the situation. If you are the attacker then YOU are dictating the pace and rhythm of the fight. BUT, if the person you are attacking is talented enough to 'think' while countering your attacks he can be looking for a hole.

 

..eh, to be honest, i tend to take the cartoons with a grain of salt..

The Jedi's abilities are obviously over-emphasized because of the nature of the medium..

And remember: one of the Jedi that Grievous killed as SHAGGY from Scooby-Doo..

I think it's pretty well-established heading into Episode III that Obi-Wan and Anakin have risen into the upper-echelon of the Jedi.. Obi-Wan and Anakin scaring the heck out of Grievous and Obi-Wan being able to actually take him down just further emphasize that fact..

 

I agree. The cartoons are just for fun(with a certain amount of seriousness). Laugh with it!



Mace Windu > Morpheus
/LM

 

General Grievous was more badass in the cartoon series..it was hella messed up when the killed him,I meen a blaster to the heart...come on that sucked

 

"Well, we've only been able to retain his lungs, heart and eyes. His heart will be placed under this tiny slate of metal, which can be opened by hand, without much force."

"Why don't we put it under more protection?"

"Hahaha, I mean, who's gonna get that close? Ha, and who would think of trying to pry it open in the frist place? Ha!"

Why would Obi-Wan try to open that up anyway?

 

What else was he going to do? Rip his eyes out?

 

You know... I swear, when I saw this thread, I thought it was going to be about the fact that Grievous changed color between Chapters 22 and 23...

 

The cartoon network people were simply told to do what they wanted, just listen to the commentary. Ofcourse, they wanted their carotoons to be the best, the _sH!T_ or so to speak, thus they made mace and that idiot girevious extremely overpowered. The cartoons are NOT canon, anyone can see that. Dooku NEVER had a female apprentice, or it would have been mentioned in the movies.

Greivous could not use the fordce, thus he was at a great disadvangtage. ANY jedi knight could have taken him out, as long as his droids were not there to support him, or possibly even then. For a powerful Jedi MASTER like obi wan, who has tangled with powerful SITH LORDS, Greivous was a piece of cake. Just watch, he opens the duel by smiling, and he correctly takes out grievous's cronies first by force dropping the crates.

The ONLY time kenobi is in trouble is when he ACCIDENTLY drops his saber; and thus has to fight without it.

And YES, being a force user MATTERS. When was the last time you saw obi-wan force push someones a$$ in a duel like he pushed grievoius? Never, because Maul, dooku and anakin can block his push with the force, like anakin does at the end of rots. The dark side is stronger though, thus maul and dooku were able to use their powers on obi-wan and he was not able to block.

Also, jedi use the force to ANTICIPATE their opponents moves, just watch SW ATOC when yoda teaches the younglings, and ep 4 when obi -Wan teaches luke; all apprentices have helmets on their heads to BLIND them, so they can use the FORCE to SENSE their oppoenents rreactions/moves RIGHT before they are executed.

The most powerful force users can probably use the force to anticipate moves even more in ADVANCE, thus they wipe the floor with weaker opponenets. (eg dooku vs anakin/obiwan in ep 2).

And ofcourse, training also matters. For instance, darth maul was undoubtedly powerful in both the force and saber training, for how else could he take out a master like Qui-Gon?

Lastly, when obi-wan shoots grievous, just imagine what a force suer could have done under similar circumstances:
1)Stop the force pull of the blaster using the force himself.
2)deflect the bolt via lightsaber OR Hand (like vader does in ep 5).
3)Force jump to dodge.


Bottom Line: When fighting jedi or when weilding a saber, being a force user matters. Not just anyone can pick up a saber and fight like a jedi; sure they can train themselves to be great; but they do not have the advantage of using the force to jump around/do force acrobatics, and more importanatly, to anticipate their foes movemetns. They do not have the force to guide them. Thus, they do not stand a chance against force users with lightsabers. Why do you think grievous was RUNNING away during the entire move so much?

As to how many jedi he killed, there is no way grievous killed a jedi for every saber he had; either dooku made the sabers for him OR grievous ambushed lone jedi using BATTALIONS of the NUMEROUS droids at his command, just like the clonetroopers killed so many jedi. A jedi may be more than a match for an entire platoon, but scores upon scores of troopers/droids firing heavy weapons at lone jedi AT the SAME time? Not even yoda, mace and sidious cuold stand up to a battalion of destroyer droids opening fire on them.

The above are the only two ways he could have recieved the sabers; from what we saw grievous was a coward who was no match for a TRAINED force using jedi in a fair fight. Screw the cartoons, they are not canon and basically are just meant to be viewed for fun.

 

Maybe ther was more then one Grievous!?!?!?!!??! ( kidding )