German-American Relations: What Would You Do?

In the recent German election, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder came from behind in the polls to defeat Edmund Stroiber by using anti-American rhetoric that seemed to resonate with the voters.

In addition, German Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin compared President Bush to Adolf Hitler and former German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping said at a meeting in Hamburg last month that Bush wanted to overthrow Saddam to please "a powerful ? perhaps overly powerful ? Jewish lobby."

How would you respond to these developments in German-American relations?

 

I dont understand. i dont quite buy into the Bill O'Reily view but it is a bit of bite the hand that feeds.

The accusing of being Hitler is just a political tactic. its to get the suseptable people to sway away form the US.

 

I don't know why they are doing this, but I find the anti-semitism distressing. The left calls the right facists, the right calls the left communists or communists supporters. The right has gotten over this, and the left in America has gotten over this, why can't the left in Europe get over this?

If Ascroft made this sort of statement about any of our democraticaly elected senior official of our "allies" in Europe he would be forced to resign.

 

OK, I was born in Germany, so I've studied German politics quite a bit. Here's my take on the situation:

Germany has suffered a lot under Fascists and Communists. I'd go as far as to say that the German people are a close second after the Jews on the list of people who have suffered the most in this world. So, of course the right and left is going to bicker heavily there.

I heard about the comparison between Hitler and Bush. However, that's not the full story. Schroeder reprimanded her after she said it, and announced that she will not be reappointed in his cabinet.

I think that if America wants to improve relations with Germany, they should just leave Germany alone. Remember, in many parts of the country, people are still bitter about the bombings in World War 2. After all the suffering, a little anti-Americanism is to be expected, and Schroeder is a left-wing leader. I'd be surprised if he wasn't anti-American, to tell you the truth. So, I don't think America should make a big deal out of this.

 

This a great concept for a thread in The Senate Floor, rsterling78; thus, well done.

However, I think some of the points that you have raised need a little more contextualization and detail.

?In the recent German election, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder came from behind in the polls to defeat Edmund Stroiber by using anti-American rhetoric that seemed to resonate with the voters.?

This is definitely true; however, I would personally prefer to replace the use of the phrase ?anti-American rhetoric? with ?anti-war rhetoric.? In addition, there are other important factors that led to the SPD?s late gains in the recent German election campaign.

a) In many respects, Schröder?s SPD and Stoiber?s CDU/CSU coalition share very similar party programmes ? both aiming to capture the centre ground. With few stark differences between the parties, the election was more centred on differences between the party leaders and respective their personalities. Stoiber has been criticized for being too formal and stiff, while Schröder?s distinctive charm appeals to many voters.

b) Schröder?s successful handling of the disastrous August floods in Germany was also heralded.

c) By most accounts, Schröder won the second (and final) of the TV electoral debates (a first for Germany at the federal level) between the two leaders (the first debate was considered to be a draw).

d) Notably, both Schröder?s SPD and Stoiber?s CDU/CSU coalition advocated pacifist/anti-war stances; however, Schröder?s SPD capitalized on this stance to the point of exploitation.

e) Lastly, from what I understand, Schröder?s SPD captured mostly the vote of undecided voter in comparison to Stoiber?s CDU/CSU coalition over the last month; thus, there were no massive swings amongst voters, who had already decided on their vote a month ago.

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?[i]In addition, German Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin compared President Bush to Adolf Hitler...[/i]"

In terms of the German Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin?s remarks, here is the actual quotation according to the [link=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/2269514.stm]Schwaebisches Tagblatt's (as stated by the BBC)[/link]:

?[i]Bush wants to divert attention from his domestic problems. It's a classic tactic. It's one that Hitler used.[/i]?

The German Press was really split over this remark: some say that it was taken out of context (by just the way it was reported), while others believe it to be incredibly insulting. I think you can make a strong case for both.

Also, it is important to note that there are no tape recordings of this remark (according to [link=http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/20/germany.election/index.html]CNN[/link]):

"[i]CNN European Political Editor Robin Oakley said that without tape recordings it was doubtful it would ever be proved conclusively whether Daeubler-Gmelin's account or the newspaper Schwaebisches Tagblatt's story was correct.[/i]"

The important thing is, as [b]AT60[/b] has stated, that Schröder immediately apologized to the Bush Administration regarding Daeubler-Gmelin's remark and that she will almost certainly not be part of the next Cabinet (also, she has resigned). [face_wink]
[hr]
"[i]...and former German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping said at a meeting in Hamburg last month that Bush wanted to overthrow Saddam to please 'a powerful ? perhaps overly powerful ? Jewish lobby.'[/i]"

In terms of former German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping, controversy seems to be his middle name and he, as a result of some of his notable public gaffes, was sacked on July 18th 2002 - well before the comments in question were made. [face_wink] Personally, I find these comments to be very insulting and unfounded in nature. [face_angry]

 

Sieg heil! Heil Bush! Oh, wait, sorry, you don't want to be so obvious.

I personally found the remarks of the Justice Minister to be quite on the spot. But then, I happen to believe Bush has been acting immature towards other foreign leaders, has used 9/11 to further a right-wing political agenda and impinge in civil liberties, is off his rocker about Iraq, and would do the country a great favor by dropping dead.

Also, I think one sticking point on a personal level on the relations between Germany and Amerika is the disproportionate assignment of responsibility for the Holocaust. Amerikans view Germans negatively because of the Third Reich and the war crimes, while not acknowledging, and often, due to white lies and half truths in our history text-books, not knowing about, our own share of the responsibility- the failure of the Allies to act to save the Jews and others.

 

I find it funny that Americans believe that "anti-American rethoric" won Schroeder the election. The election was decided on German internal issues and Schroeder's newly gained popularity after his strong leadership in the flood disaster. Germans are mostly concerned about their own issues, talk about America doesn't win you elections.
btw, what Anti-American rethoric did Schroeder use? He said repeatedly that he was against a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, how is that Anti-American? Name me one or two examples of Schroeder being Anti-American.
As for the Justice Minister - there are five witnesses that confirmed that she never said that phrase. You can make of that what you want. She's gone now anyway.

If the Bush administration have a problem with another nation raising doubts about a war so that they can't even congratulate Schroeder (while congratulating fascist dictators like Musharraf) then that's simply bullying.

As for anti-semitism - if anybody seriosuly believes that German people or politicians are anti-semitic then they haven't got a clue. I lived many years in Germany and I've never seen such a anti-militaristic and anti-war pacifist society. Some might say it's too extreme in that way but that's not the point for this discussion. The Germany of today is the most modern democracy in Europe and has absolutely nothing to do with what happened 50 years ago

 

As Tufako already said, the Justice Minister said and was backed up on this by several witnesses that she NEVER said that phrase. But hey, who cares huh?

Shroeder wasn't anti-American. Oh yeah, "if you're not with us you're against us" right? How dumb.

 

Is the solution for America to remove its military bases from Germany? If this is a bad marriage, how about a divorce? Most everybody would win...

The German People: No more cowboy Americans, acting first and thinking later, always asking us to join them on their self-righteous adventures.

The American People: (looking up from football game) Huh? Germany doesn't like us? Screw 'em. (goes back to watching football game)

The American Political Left: One less colonial possession for America's imperialistic military-industrial complex. Good!

The American Political Right: No more taxpayer money for military bases in an increasingly strategically irrelevant part of the world.

The only losers would be the German politicians:

What's that? How am I going to promote economic recovery while not increasing the tax burden and simultaneously expanding social programs. Uh...well, I -- Hey! Look over there! What are those Americans up to now? Maybe we should oppose them...or help them...or something...

 

I am surprised that nobody has brought this little nugget out of the woodwork yet:

Germany reaped benefits to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars by selling nuclear technology to Iraq. If Iraq is or has been able to develop a Nuclear weapon of any kind, it will be because of the information and equipment sold to them by the German government.

How does this effect German-American relations, especially given the current stance taken by Germany?

 

what? please prove that. Germany doesn't even have a nuclear development programme so I find that accusation highly dubious.

 

I agree with Takafo. PPOR. To my knowledge, Germany was forbidden to have a nuclear weapons programme, after the war.

 

Tukafo:

Check out this partial transcript from The O'Reilly Factor:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,63957,00.html

 

Well, that settles it. Bill O'Reilly says it's true. It's as if the heavens parted, and God Himself declared it to be true.



EDIT: I just read the article. Bill O'Reilly's source says it MAY be true. There's no proof that it ever happened, or that the German government was even aware of it.

 

JediSmuggler, thanks for the link. That makes an interesting read and might well be correct. After all it supposedly happened in the Eighties when it was common Western policy to supply Iraq with weapons and technologies. And I remember well that Iraqui missiles in the Gulf War were fired off Mercedes trucks.
However , since these people in that transcript haven't even got the slightest idea about Germany, its politics or people I find it hard to believe them. Germany might be selling arms to Al Quaida? Did they smoke something? Do they think Germany is some kind of criminal banana republic? There were no official arms or technology deliveries from Germany into Iraq since the Kuwait invasion. That's what counts as BEFORE that event even the USA were supporting Saddam.

And once again to this Bill guy and his friend - the German election was not won due to Anti-American rethoric (I'm still waiting for an example of that) but due to internal issues . Just because you're not interested in German politics doesn't mean that America is the Number 1 issue for German citizens.

 

Karl-Heinz Schaab

Funny, because this man was actually convicted by a German court for high treason. Check in to it and see what his sentence was for such a crime.

 

Fined $32,000, five years' probation, and set free, but that's completely irrelevant.
To even suggest that Schroeder would support terrorism is absolutely absurd.

 

please note that in all the links that come up on google.com under his name it says that he acted without consent of the German government. As a matter of fact he supposedly was an Iraqi spy.

So much for a conspiracy of the German government

Just yesterday Congress found that Bin Laden bought planes from US companies. You could draw similar conclusions from that

 

AMERICA SOLD SUPPLIES TO BIN LADEN SO THAT HE WOULD ATTACK AND BUSH COULD USE IT AS A WAY TO ELIMINATE FREEDOM FROM THE COUNTRY!!!

I sure sound like an idiot, don't I? Well, that's how people who accuse Schroeder of supporting terrorism sound.

 

Superb reporting, Master_Obi-Dan. Straight to the facts, and with source links, to boot! I like that in a post.

 

For all the things we do for them, this is the thanks we get back? I'd pull all of our forces that are in there out. They don't want to be with us, then they don't have to be.






...and a Jango

 

nobody in Germany forgets what America has done for them by liberating them from the Nazis (the American role in the liberation from the communists however is often exaggerated by Americans. It was Gorbachev that was responsible for allowing East Germany to open its borders). However - once again - all that Schroeder said was "I'm against a pre-emptive strike against Iraq". Not more (still waiting for proof of Anti-American comments). How is that being "Anti-American" or "ungrateful"?

Don't forget that Al Gore and most Democrats have a similar view and so have half of Tony Blair's Labour party. Are they Anti-American too?

 

Nobody forgets that America liberated Germany from the Nazis, but they don't forget the aerial bombing either, or the 3.6 million German civilians killed, many by Americans, or the 3.2 million German soldiers killed. Sure, Germany was given money to rebuild, but after the country was divided and occupied. So, I don't consider this a case of biting the hand that feeds. I think America should be thankful that opposing the invasion of Iraq (which nearly every country in the world is doing) is as anti-American as the current German government gets. And, to be perfectly frank, I believe that Schroeder is perfectly justified in opposing military action against Iraq. Germany is one of the most peaceful countries in the world.

 

I think it's partially due to the fact that there's no looming danger to Europe so we're no longer seen as neccessary to them and this is just the backlash to the US's waining importance to the nations security. Sure there's more too it, but as time wears on the gratitude for the US's aide will be overcome by their own desires for a fully intergrated nation, without the constant reminder of the past via military restrictions. The US's military presence in Germany is just a constant reminder of that.

IMO this is just a part of the inevitable fall out of the cold war.

GAP the whole "with us or against us" had to do with the issue of harboring or aiding terrorists. Not on any issue at any time. Anytime we want unilateralism on an issue you keep quoting a speech about something completely different. We're not commanding our allies to agree with us, we're courting them, and providing evidence to agree with us.

To paraphrase a senator:
We put too much emphasis on what Europe thinks about Iraq. The countries opinions we should be concerned with are his neighbors, and how it effects their region.

Smart words

 

We put too much emphasis on what Europe thinks about Iraq. The countries opinions we should be concerned with are his neighbors, and how it effects their region.

Smart words

Not so smart, really. The economic repercussions of destabilizing the region (a likely effect from war, as noted by several government officials) for even a short period of time while a new government is established would be detrimental to the E.U., as well as other nations.